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Forum Index : Solar : Australian Standards and DIY solar install
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InPhase Senior Member Joined: 15/12/2020 Location: United StatesPosts: 178
Posted: 06:08pm 05 Nov 2021
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I simply wouldn't be asking for permission to have a large battery nor would I make it obvious if I did. I don't know how things work in Australia, but where I am electrical inspectors can't just go searching your property for no reason.
Warpspeed Guru Joined: 09/08/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 4406
Posted: 08:51pm 05 Nov 2021
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They certainly can over here. And so can health inspectors, building inspectors, and probably twenty types of other government paid inspectors you never knew existed.
It only takes the local street busy body, gossip, and trouble maker to phone up the council and say "that nasty rude man at number 64 has an illegal solar system" and you will get swarmed.Cheers, Tony.
InPhase Senior Member Joined: 15/12/2020 Location: United StatesPosts: 178
Posted: 11:28pm 05 Nov 2021
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Ain't that a bitch. There's an entire political party aimed at giving governments that kind of authority here, but fortunately, so far, courts and common sense have managed to keep it confined to the niches of the urban police state.
Davo99 Guru Joined: 03/06/2019 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1577
Posted: 11:47pm 05 Nov 2021
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My wife manages the council dept that looks after this. You are spot on, it requires someone to ring and complain. This is the only way they find out about things other than they may occasionally look at aerial Mapping for cut down trees and illegal buildings like sheds and pools. It's rare though.
The Bottom line is council CANNOT come onto your property without your Permission. There are 2 exceptions and they must be accompanied usually by police if not given permission. One is Hoarding where there are problems with Vermin or other health issues and the other is related being health issue of other kinds. These are the only 2 reasons they can force access and they must be accompanied by cops, ambos or fire brigade.
Councils are 100% uninterested in solar/ power/ Utilities. Simply not their area of concern. There is no DA or approval required for solar anywhere I'm aware of. It's a compliant development.
IF A solar system was reported, council would NOT relay that to a power co, it is up to the individual making the complaint. Same with other authorities. Councils also do not act without complaints unless there was something that a council ranger saw while attending another property they considered a danger of some sort.
Councils also tend to be completely gutless due to the rules and regs they must follow. Oh yeah, they will bark and sabre Rattle but stand up to them and put them to the test and they fall over. It's hard enough to get them to do something when there is a genuine problem, they definitely don't go looking for more work I can tell you that! More likely to turn a blind eye when they DO see something especially if it's not reported. My wife socialises and is Friendly with a couple of Council rangers and know how the system works.
My friends 88 Yo mother has some real ratbag neighbours living next to her. She lives in the council area my wife runs. She asked the rangers to do what they can as a Favour and still they couldn't do much. They Fine them for what are clear breaches but they take them to court and get off nearly every time with far fetched and ridiculous excuses. If you know how to play the system.....
I have been putting the local council off here as has my neighbour from the required inspections of my bog tank. Supposed to shell out for that yearly for some just out of High school Kid that does not know their arse from their elbow like the other neighbour had come out to look at it and have a licenced guy come every 3 months to drop some Chlorine Tablets in the thing which I do myself. Neighbour got the knock back from the council kid, called a service guy who came out and looked at it and said WTF? Rang council on the spot and said what are you talking about? I'm here looking at it, It does Comply and they said Oh, OK, we'll change the report to passed.
You just have to be firm with them because they are Pathetic and weak. I mean that personally as well as their powers. Sure some nice people but I go to Christmas parties and see and meet them on a social level and think what a Bunch of candy arse Pussies! They are a bunch of paper pushers that are so hobbled in what they can do even if they want they are toothless Tigers. When my 5Ft Nothing wife has " Bullying" claims made against her by a 6'3 Bloke, you know what type of people work in these places. Went on to prove that by making another complaint about another woman. Director who knows them both told the guy off the record to harden the Fk up or look for alternative place to go.
Bottom line is Council CANNOT just come on your property except in what one might say is emergency's when they need to be accompanied by police.
Power cos can come on your property and you are SUPPOSED to give them 24/7 access but most won't go through a gate even if it's not locked again unless it is an emergency. More likely to cut the power in the street than bypass any access impediment.
The statement they don't go looking for things is largely true here as well. Reports from Neighbours or passers by is how they find out about 99% of things. Of course the number they follow up on is different.
Neighbour at the old place reported that I was keeping cattle in my suburban back yard that were mooing at night keeping rat bag Neighbour awake. Council Guy rang and said I know this will sound Crazy but we are supposed to follow up on these complaints and I haven't had this one before. I laughed when he told me and didn't even get to answer and he said yeah, thought so and that was it.
Of course I didn't have any cattle..... It was just sound effects I used to play to get back at the mongerals of a cattle Drive along with a steam Train, The Queen Mary Coming in to dock, Circling choppers and street Gangs having a shoot out with Police. I read the rules very carefully, No music, machinery, groups of people talking and laughing or loud TV's but there was nothing about cattle Drives, steam Trains and Fog horns.
One of my clients works for the local power co that does maintence and installations and I asked him about things with my solar and he said there is NO ONE going round Checking meters or illegal installs etc. He wanted to add to his solar system but was worried about his job if he was discovered. Made some enquiries and was satisfied enough that there was no one inspecting or policing anything and his chances of getting caught were next to zero so went ahead with it. He put up his own bootleg system and bought 6KW of used panels and an inverter off me and sent me the pics of his handy work so pretty clearly he felt comfortable with it.
Can't say it would never happen but personally I put being inspected in the same risk category as being killed in a car accident going to or from the local shops getting your Groceries. Daughters Friend works for a power co out of this area and they are supposed to inspect 1 in 10 NEW approvals. With the amount of places being built he said they are lucky to do one in about 50. Thing is if they find something which they do with more than not, they then have to go back and re inspect, as many as 3-4 times. Obviously that limits the amount of individual places they can get around.
May be different with other authoritative I would tend to think they are all restricted similarly.
Sorry davo but I can't understand your maths at all. How on earth do you get 39kwh from 800ah @ 80% DOD? 48v x 800ah = 38.4kwh @ 100% DOD according to my calculator. 25% DOD of 800ah is 9.6kwh. I'm not sure where the 23 kwh comes from? All conventional wisdom I've ever heard regarding lead acid is that you don't take more than 20-25% out of them if you want to last. These forklift packs can obviously take more of a beating though. I won't often need the full 14 kwh but when I do I can use the full capacity I paid for without worrying about damaging them.
Obviously I can't expect a warranty or service on cells ordered from overseas. I knew that going in and I'm comfortable with that.
I guess it is a personality difference. I feel confident enough in the technology that $3500 is a reasonable gamble. In fact, I don't really see it as a gamble. I guy I worked with a month or so a go was complaining about how he lost $8k betting on a horse. I think I made a better bet than him.
Forums are also full of people who are happy with their lithiums, and people who are disappointed with lead acid too. Honestly I believe Tony had a bum run. There must be some fault or flaw in Winstons' chemistry causing that failure mode. I've never heard of it with any other breed of Lifepo4.
Well this sort of thing is news to me. I don't know how you can treat them this way without suffering degradation. Are they using forklift packs or some other kind?
That is pretty good. I haven't been able to find any suppliers very close by where I am, and transport would be an issue. The lithiums turned up quite literally on my doorstep.
I've only just started construction of the tiny house. Batteries/off grid setup are currently in an old donga, and will be moved to the tiny house when the time comes. At this stage exactly how much it will be moved remains to be seen, but I want the option there and I want it to be easy. I want it to be as self contained as possible. I could house a big lead acid pack on another trailer or in an outbuilding or enclosure, but thats an added complication I'm not interested in.
Legally they're the same thing(usually) but in practice quite different. Caravans are generally mass produced, built as lightly and cheaply as possible, poorly insulated, designed to somewhat aerodynamic and towed around the countryside regularly. A tiny house on wheels, is built more like a normal house, but tiny, and on wheels. They're generally much heavier and stronger than a caravan, much higher, not much, if any consideration given to aerodynamics. Usually built on a stronger, heavier trailer than a caravan. Having wheels has certain legal implications when it comes to council issues, and you can shift it if/when required. For me its a no brainer. I'm already accustomed to living in small spaces, and I have no interest in living in, maintaining, or paying for a normal house.
Maybe, but once again the used forklift packs are the only lead acid I've seen that I would consider better bang for buck. And I'm still not convinced that taking them to 80% DOD is going to result in a long life span. I still might buy one at some point, but I don't think I'd be comfortable taking it below 50%.
Warpspeed Guru Joined: 09/08/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 4406
Posted: 12:10am 06 Nov 2021
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I had one of those living next door. In the end they were forced to move because of me.
She used to sit in an upstairs room and watch everything that went on in the street. I planted some trees for privacy, which the husband would come into my place (when I was out) and cut the tops off so his wife could have a clearer view. He was a bit of a gardener, so I would assist him with a bit of pruning of his expensive ornamental bushes which made him mad. I am not very good at that, so I made up for quality with the amount removed.
One day I had a large cardboard box delivered. Within a few minutes the husband was ringing my door bell. "You just had a delivery". Yes I did. "what was it ?" Tell your nosey wife its none of her damned business.
She used to hear me out in the shed, hammering and using power tools, seeing welding flashes and so on, and had no way of finding out what I was doing. It used to drive her nuts.
One day my wheelie bin disappeared. I later found it about a hundred yards up the road. So I sabotaged THEIR wheelie bin by sawing off the ends of the axles so the wheels kept falling off, with no easy way to fix it.
This went on for years, it was hilarious. Everything I did was a direct response to something they had done, but usually my reply was much more extreme. The husband was henpecked, but he was even more afraid of me, so that was not a problem. I honestly believe she was demonically possessed.
The people there now are really nice....Cheers, Tony.
I have heard some bad stuff on other solar forums about EnergySafe (I think thats their bullsh*t name) in Victoria, who seem to be particularly egregious in their overreach and nosiness.
Apparently the guy got a letter or email or something about the unapproved solar panels in his backyard, that they spotted by aerial or satellite imagery. Their concern was apparently not about any electrical safety issues, but that the structure(it was a pergola I think) was not engineered for mounting solar panels. They wanted some kind of proof that it was engineered.
Revlac Guru Joined: 31/12/2016 Location: AustraliaPosts: 961
Posted: 12:37am 06 Nov 2021
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There should be a graph supplied by the manufacturer to show at what voltage 80% Actually is, some people have been caught out with voltage drop, say for 12v FLA battery and inverter, some inverters will cutout at 10.5 or 11v, likewise with 48v inverters, usually stop at 44v. How much of the total capacity is still left below the cutout voltage? I remember looking at some batteries that seemed fairly cheap at the time, I think it was lead crystal, and were said that they could be discharge all the way, but I could not (at the time) find graph to say how much capacity was left below 11v.
Yes, they are pretty hot on this sort of thing in SE QLD as well, They flew a drone over a friend property, sent him a notice to mow his grass as it could be hiding snakes, He had a high tin fence around his yard so the inspector could not see in from the footpath.Cheers Aaron Off The Grid
Davo99 Guru Joined: 03/06/2019 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1577
Posted: 03:32am 06 Nov 2021
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Davo99 Guru Joined: 03/06/2019 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1577
Posted: 03:40am 06 Nov 2021
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I live in a very nice and expensive area but opposite are some complete and utter bogans living in one of Daddys Investment properties.
It takes half the Neighbourhood months of complaining and some Visits from daddy after the council ride him to get them to mow the lawn. Council won't do anything about it till it becomes a health and safety issue and by that time the place is a Jungle. I believe they have to go to court to get some order to make them mow it.
They get in different companies and I have spoken to a few when I have been out the front with the dog and they won't touch it. Why would you? Thing needs a flail mower on a skid steer to get through it and then you never know what surprises lie within. I have heard some Mighty clanging and banging with they have been in there doing it and also saw one guy couple of years ago just pack up and leave after about 20 Min. Didn't blame him.
Good people take notice of councils etc. The rest just ignore them and get away with it.
Warpspeed Guru Joined: 09/08/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 4406
Posted: 04:22am 06 Nov 2021
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The really friendly old couple over the back fence sold up and went into a retirement home. The place was bought by a developer and a pair of two story units went up.
So while the builders were busy I put up my 6Kw of solar panels on that side of the house. The new people moved in, and my very prominent solar panels were already there. Nothing was said, but they quickly paid to have the the fence extended nine feet high, which suited me fine.
One of the units is occupied by a mother and 21 year old daughter that like to play very loud "modern thump thump music" music day and night. Even screwed loudspeakers direct to the boundary fence. I am pretty deaf so it was not really a problem.
They also fitted powerful spotlights that burned night and day, which shone straight into my windows and up the hallway right up to the front door. If I got up for a nocturnal pee, it was like daylight, no need to turn on a light.
I fitted some heavy weight hardiflex sheeting to the fence, which worked great at blocking both the noise and the light.
Nailed some trellis over the top, and now I have nine feet high of ivy growing really well. Its actually improved my place.
The two units are huge and completely fill the block. Their two tiny back yards are on the south side with a nine foot fence of their own choosing. No sunlight ever reaches there, it must be especially dark and damp and dismal in winter.
All this happened without any drama, or even a single conversation over the last three years or so.
Edited 2021-11-06 14:23 by WarpspeedCheers, Tony.
Godoh Guru Joined: 26/09/2020 Location: AustraliaPosts: 378
Posted: 05:49am 06 Nov 2021
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Hi Tony, I guess if the doof doof music gets too much you could design a bluetooth relay and fit it to their meter box. That way you could turn the music off whenever you wanted. Sounds like you have had interesting neighbours. I am fortunate that I live in the country, nearest neighbours are really quiet and about 200 metres away. cheers Pete
Warpspeed Guru Joined: 09/08/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 4406
Posted: 06:29am 06 Nov 2021
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I am very hard of hearing and its not really a problem. Don't know how the other neighbors feel about it though. Cannot really complain, my power tools can be noisy, but not very often used.Cheers, Tony.
Godoh Guru Joined: 26/09/2020 Location: AustraliaPosts: 378
Posted: 09:35pm 06 Nov 2021
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Like you Tony, I have hearing problems too. For me tinnitus is it. I pretend that every day is Christmas and the cicadas are out there singing away, because that is what I hear. Also at night especially I hear deep rumbles and sounds like a diesel engine idling. My partner tells me that they are not there. Must be moving towards and alternate reality. I figure that at 66 years old now, I am getting closer all the time. I try to keep my powertool noise down as much as possible too. I have a battery brushcutter, chainsaw and mower. I love them, it is so nice to just be smelling grass rather than two stroke fuel when I am tidying up. I have just finished installing my new inverter, today is testing day and commissioning. As we are totally off grid, I now have three inverters to cover for blowups. PowerJacks were good for a while but blow up too often. So now I have trashed them and used the transformers with 8010 boards, so far so good. Even though my transformer is rated at 8kw ( powerjack imaginitive rating) I will not pull much more than 2500 watts from it. I think 100 amps is enough from the batteries, this only happens for cooking and the occasional power tool usage. Pete
Warpspeed Guru Joined: 09/08/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 4406
Posted: 10:13pm 06 Nov 2021
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I ran with a 2.5Kw inverter for a couple of years and it was more than sufficient.
Eventually I built a 5Kw monster that has run faultlessly for just coming up to four years. I cannot see myself ever needing anything else.Cheers, Tony.
noneyabussiness Guru Joined: 31/07/2017 Location: AustraliaPosts: 506
Posted: 11:55pm 06 Nov 2021
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I may have missed something ( happens alot) but if " off grid " systems are limited to " 1kw " storage, the several UPS's I have from factory have way more than that... would that come under the same umbrella?? lol, only country In the developed world where it is technically illegal to change a lightbulb... so would need an electrician to " install " a UPS I think it works !!
Davo99 Guru Joined: 03/06/2019 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1577
Posted: 03:39am 07 Nov 2021
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First thought is should be OK as long as you don't open them up and just plug them in with normal sockets.
Second thought is, Who knows with all the rules and regs... that are hidden unless you pay a fortune to get them and then they have to be deciphered and the final decision depends on how good or bad a day the guy inspecting is having.
3rd thought is, who bloody cares?? Stupid rules and regs DESERVE to be ignored when they serve no practical purpose or benefit, other than that for a vested interests Profits.
4th thought is, what is the realistic likely hood of someone ever coming to inspect and what is the fine If I do get copped?
Retrenched Motor Mechanic I know was telling me this morning he's made far more money in the last 12 Months Buying, repairing and selling cars from home than he ever has before. Mainly does blown head gaskets because the rest of the cars are still good but it's expensive to have done so the cars are cheap for him to uy and he can do them in a day for a few hundred Bucks.
He's turning them out at about 3 a fortnight. I said you are only allowed to do 12 a year private. How onto it are they? He said I have no Idea and hoping I don't find out. He said far as I can tell they only find out if there is a complaint and everyone's been more than happy so far and even bring them back to me for servicing or refer me to other people who want a cheap used car.
He said he looked up the fine and first offence is $3000. It's being caught, NOT per car. He said I average $2000 per car profit. He said I have put $4000 away for when the inevitable happens and then I'll have to stop or go legit.
The Licences he is supposed to have as a dealer are more than $3k a year anyway and then he'd have to have council approval, OH&S inspections, EPA... You name it. Other thing is operating without a dealers licence means they can only treat him as a private which greatly narrows what they can get him for and the fines. Being qualified and licenced, really the only thing they can get him for, being he is not selling unsafe or faulty vehicles, is dealing without a licence.
Easier and cheaper to beg for forgiveness than get permission.
I look at things the same way. I have NEVER had some random inspection or been fined for anything and I have done a lot of Dodgy ship over the years that I couldn't complain about if I had. Keep your head down, don't Piss anyone off and keep things out of sight and your chances of having a problem are on par with winning lotto.
Notice. New forum software under development. It's going to miss a few functions and look a bit ugly for a while, but I'm working on it full time now as the old forum was too unstable. Couple days, all good. If you notice any issues, please contact me.
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