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Geoffg

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Posted: 01:34pm 24 Dec 2019
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I have just finished watching a Netflix documentary where they said that just 0.3% of the population can write a computer program.

I don't know how accurate that is but regardless, it is an amazingly small number.
So, most people here belong to a very small segment of the population.

Geoff
Geoff Graham - http://geoffg.net
 
aargee
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Joined: 21/08/2008
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Posted: 08:29pm 24 Dec 2019
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What was the documentary Geoff?

40 years ago, most kids in my class knew this...

10 Print "Hello World"
20 Goto 10

I guess there might be a definition of limits for 'a computer program'
For crying out loud, all I wanted to do was flash this blasted LED.
 
SimpleSafeName

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Joined: 28/07/2019
Location: United States
Posts: 284
Posted: 08:51pm 24 Dec 2019
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Basically it means that the other 99.7% were able to find dates. :)

But only 21 million? I doubt it...
 
JohnS
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Posted: 10:15pm 24 Dec 2019
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It won't have been helped by the way that the UK went away from knowing such things as how a computer works, how to program one, and so on, and instead just on how to do such things as copy and paste in a specific Microsoft application on a specific version of Windows using the prescribed method.

I'm hoping only the UK did this terrible thing.

I understand that at last this has changed, though I have no first-hand knowledge whether that's truly so.

John
 
robert.rozee
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Posted: 01:20am 25 Dec 2019
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do we have any statistics on how many people could write any sort of program in the 1980's? i'm guessing that the UK might have the highest numbers.

what educators have missed over the years is the reason for teaching programming. it is not about creating a program to do whatever, but rather about understanding algorithms, methods, ways of solving problems. the whatever part is, in the end, rather irrelevant. this holds true for a great deal of what we teach our children - aside from the core skills of reading, writing, and simple arithmetic, education of the young should be all about exercising the brain so that later on in life the individual has the mental flexibility to adapt to their changing environment.

while teaching a child how to cut-and-paste in a word processor seems - on the face of it - worthwhile, surely it is far better to provide the child with the adaptability to sit down in front of a screen and figure out for themselves how to usefully interact with whatever may be behind said screen.


just my opinion, mind you!

cheers and merry xmas,
rob   :-)
 
TassyJim

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Posted: 01:38am 25 Dec 2019
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  robert.rozee said   it is not about creating a program to do whatever, but rather about understanding algorithms, methods, ways of solving problems.

cheers and merry xmas,
rob   :-)


On my first day at Uni, I was told
"You all think you are here to learn how to be engineers. Wrong. You are here to learn how to learn."

Mind you, that's probably the only thing I do remember about Uni.

Out young pup learnt about snakes today.

She can't understand why she is confined to the house for the rest of the day, by which time we hope the snake has moved on. At least she has the smell of Christmas dinner to keep her busy.

Jim
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Quazee137

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Joined: 07/08/2016
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Posted: 09:40am 25 Dec 2019
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You got it right there rob

  robert.rozee said  
while teaching a child how to cut-and-paste in a word processor seems - on the face of it - worthwhile,
surely it is far better to provide the child with the adaptability to sit down in front of a screen and figure out for themselves how to usefully interact with whatever may be behind said screen.


That is what I loved most about running my daycare.
Seeing the light bulb turn on in an 18 month and a 3 year old in exactly the same way.
Solving same problem in each their own way. Both knew how to turn on their computer
and find what they wanted to learn from the menu system. My granddaughter created
and she was 8 at the time.

The older kids 12 to 16 that had no idea how approach a problem let alone solve it

Best of all is the older ones learned from the two little ones how to see a problem
in a different way and to try out other solutions with excitement.
Learning how to learn was the best I could teach them all.

I when run into some of the families shopping it is very nice to have a child
(now 5' 4" tall) run up to me and give my a hug and ask if I can come teach
at their school.
 
Warpspeed
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Joined: 09/08/2007
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Posted: 09:55am 25 Dec 2019
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The current generation could not give a stuff about how things work.

You want to keep foods cold, buy a refrigerator.  You don't need to study thermodynamics to learn how to keep your beer cold.

Want to call your buddy on the telephone, no need to study how a telephone exchange works to do that.

Buy a car to get from A to B.  But how many people understand how the engine management system actually functions, or how the automatic gearbox works.

Get a computer, just point the mouse and click, why would anyone want to know how the damned thing works or write a unique program for it ?

Sign of the times I am afraid.
Cheers,  Tony.
 
Poppy

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Joined: 25/07/2019
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Posted: 11:25am 25 Dec 2019
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non scho­lae, sed vi­tae dis­ci­mus

A really good topic!

My point of view is that it is all about electricity!

In our modern world we are desperately dependent or even controlled by electrons!
Computers are just the most sophisticated way of (ab)using them.

So not to be a super naive victim or slave to having all technology or lacking it I think we all need to have some at least "basic" understanding of it all.

So (for me) it is not a question of being able to code purely but to understand how the black box is functioning at least generally. And a black box can be every tool being mechanical or electr(on)ical. And any knowledge is a part of the black box we call our mind!

Understanding the world around us is a fundamental part of finding and understanding ourselves as an adnate part of it!

And this all starts on a technological branch with making fire and using electricity!

Having some dates besides is no challenge at all ... this comes quite naturally if the individual is not too extreme in whatever he/she does. And even "hardcore nerds" do not reproduce by amitosis! Well ...? I don´t actually know!  

After Engineering I just studied Sociology, so for me it is just a matter of keeping my mind open!

Andre ... such a GURU?
 
Tinine
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Joined: 30/03/2016
Location: United Kingdom
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Posted: 12:23pm 25 Dec 2019
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  Warpspeed said  The current generation could not give a stuff about how things work.

You want to keep foods cold, buy a refrigerator.  You don't need to study thermodynamics to learn how to keep your beer cold.

Want to call your buddy on the telephone, no need to study how a telephone exchange works to do that.

Buy a car to get from A to B.  But how many people understand how the engine management system actually functions, or how the automatic gearbox works.

Get a computer, just point the mouse and click, why would anyone want to know how the damned thing works or write a unique program for it ?

Sign of the times I am afraid.


Engine management?
They just simply accept that you pour a liquid in a tank and then press a pedal to go.

My friends and I were rebuilding/tuning our motocrossers at age 11. My dad also gave me an AVO and I repaired electrical appliances for neighbours.

Too many limp wrists today, more concerned with the colour of their hair.
 
Tinine
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Posted: 02:21pm 25 Dec 2019
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  Poppy said  

After Engineering I just studied Sociology, so for me it is just a matter of keeping my mind open!


Seems like every bartender I come across has a ology degree....huge debt and can't figure why no one has offered them a 6-figure salary.

Another one is "studying" to be an Audio Engineer. WTF is an Audio Engineer????

[Client] "Music is too darned loud!"
[Audio Engineer] "No problem, I shall modulate the amplitude" (turns volume knob).

Yet try and get a youngster interested in an apprenticeship...."how much is the pay?"

I recently thought I had a youngster hooked on MCUs and electrical engineering after a lengthy discussion but then he asked me "if I start learning right now, how long before I start making big money?". I stopped bothering.

Another told me that he wanted to be an electrician. I thought, cool, this kid must already have some interest/background...Nope. Had no interest whatsoever but he'd heard that there is a demand for electricians in Oz and he wanted to move there (from UK).
 
Poppy

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Joined: 25/07/2019
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Posted: 04:06pm 25 Dec 2019
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  Tinine said  

Seems like every bartender I come across has a ology degree....huge debt and can't figure why no one has offered them a 6-figure salary.


A very simple answer: The Peter Principle!
They already reached their highest level of competence being a bartender!


  Tinine said  
Another one is "studying" to be an Audio Engineer. WTF is an Audio Engineer????


As far as I know a typical "Sound Engineer" - the one turning the knobs mixing audios ... AND completely knowing all electronical background of his knobs (in case of real competence). It is not only about touching their knobs!  


  Tinine said  
[Client] "Music is too darned loud!"
[Audio Engineer] "No problem, I shall modulate the amplitude" (turns volume knob).


... yeah, the boring workaday life ... serving stupid clients!



  Tinine said  
Yet try and get a youngster interested in an apprenticeship...."how much is the pay?"

I recently thought I had a youngster hooked on MCUs and electrical engineering after a lengthy discussion but then he asked me "if I start learning right now, how long before I start making big money?". I stopped bothering.


This reminds me of the naive economic-students of my time, they completely all were thinking to become millionaires within the first 3 years after having their degree.
Very Naive, but first most students are!


  Tinine said  
Another told me that he wanted to be an electrician. I thought, cool, this kid must already have some interest/background...Nope. Had no interest whatsoever but he'd heard that there is a demand for electricians in Oz and he wanted to move there (from UK).


If someone does not feel the urge all by himself, you cannot give him any spark for a flame. Most people just want to live in some dim homeostasis, they actually are not looking for awareness, so therefore they are not looking for knowledge, so they are not interested in anything more than whatever feeds their impulsive egocentricity.

What I am positively talking about are those being really open minded, so in my case (at least trying to be) the other way round, if I had studied sociology first I still would already have had checked out computers years before, just like climbing on trees, having dance lessons or doing sports.

Nowadays I think kids do not have enough freedom for cherishing more generalism in their interests to find out and test themselves, just before they find their individual way.

So stupidly thinking about payment is just a logical consequence, sad but consequent!
Like getting my f***ing salary and besides doing what I really want (being a smart phone consumer-zombie)

And I think before there were any computers, life in this sense was much more easily diversified.
So in consequence I believe that knowing and understanding a computer (or any technology being practically used) better is very important!

And that is why I favour simple BASIC so much ... just as a spark for all those who are open to catch any fire ... technologically.

Understanding coding you can even jump over to Psychology, just imagine how easy most people can get programmed ... just by commercials for example.


Andre ... such a GURU?
 
mackoffgrid

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Joined: 13/03/2017
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Posted: 09:06pm 25 Dec 2019
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  Poppy said  
After Engineering I just studied Sociology, so for me it is just a matter of keeping my mind open!


A very good mix of education  

Cheers
Andrew
 
mackoffgrid

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Joined: 13/03/2017
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Posted: 09:16pm 25 Dec 2019
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  Geoffg said  I have just finished watching a Netflix documentary where they said that just 0.3% of the population can write a computer program.
Geoff


I find that hard to believe.  Surely most people are capable of basic (simple) programming.  I actually find it harder these days to setup the environment than to do the programming  

On the other hand consider: from Asperger - Autism network

about 1 in 68 children has been identified with Autism Spectrum Disorder (ASD).

Some professionals currently surmise that at least one in every 250 people has an Asperger profile.



Cheers
Andrew
 
TassyJim

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Posted: 09:33pm 25 Dec 2019
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  mackoffgrid said   Surely most people are capable of basic (simple) programming.

Capable yes, but only after they are given some initial clues on what to do.

I remember, back in my ZX81 days, a work colleague asked me "What's a got-o?"

Jim
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Warpspeed
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Posted: 10:14pm 25 Dec 2019
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I suppose most people given the time and inclination could probably produce a flow chart of how to make a cup of tea.

But converting that to some error free code that will run on an XF3700Z chip might be more of a challenge for many of us.

Never heard of an XF3700Z chip ? Neither have I.  But if you were a truly competent programmer you should be able to very quickly write error free code for absolutely anything.

I suppose it really comes down to what is actually meant by "writing a computer program".
Cheers,  Tony.
 
Poppy

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Posted: 11:08pm 25 Dec 2019
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  mackoffgrid said  Surely most people are capable of basic (simple) programming.


Are they really? If I look around at my place I cannot see anyone, most people I know even are not able to set up their own Windows or understand what to do after their PC freezed (I said Windows, didn´t I ?   ) or how to repair it being broken down.
And today a PC is just a common tool for everyone.
... or just not to overstress multiple sockets ... understanding WATT´s the matter.

  mackoffgrid said  
 I actually find it harder these days to setup the environment than to do the programming  


Just what I always say, in former times just switching on the homecomputer and start typing was great. Just like the Maximite.  

Somehow just having fun in learning to understand is the key for me.
Andre ... such a GURU?
 
Chopperp

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Posted: 12:13am 26 Dec 2019
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  TassyJim said  I remember, back in my ZX81 days, a work colleague asked me "What's a got-o?"
Jim


Reminds me of my VIC-20 which came up with READY on the screen.
If you hit return, it would interpret this as READ Y & gave the appropriate error message if I recall correctly.

(The C64 was probably the same)
ChopperP
 
PeterB
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Posted: 12:59am 26 Dec 2019
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G'Day All

I think I may be picking a fight with Warpspeed.
I did an apprenticeship on valves then Technician on transistors then University on transistors just in time for TTL and then 8085 ASM.
I never did a course on programming and it probably shows but my idea was an Engineer should be able to define a problem, sort of PIC or PICK, and then reduce it to a flow chart. From then on any competent programmer should be able to generate the code.
I'm not sure about the current situation but some years ago universities would not accept a flow chart.
I think what I am trying to say is, is it reasonable to ask one person to take a better mouse trap from concept to manufacture?

Peter
 
Warpspeed
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Posted: 01:22am 26 Dec 2019
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No conflict seen here Peter, its a philosophical discussion.

But what actually is a computer program ?
Is it just a case of defining a series of logical sequential steps to achieve some outcome ?

Or is it a lot more complex than that, requiring an intimate knowledge of a specific device including the initialization of every bit in every control register and every aspect of every feature, including timing constraints, pin loading, and other limitations. All the things that you need to know to get one particular chip "environment" to start up and actually do anything at all ?

The basic concept of writing code is fairly simple.  But as time goes on, the actual implementation of it is becoming more and more difficult as the chips become more complex.

  Quote   is it reasonable to ask one person to take a better mouse trap from concept to manufacture?

I doubt if that is possible these days unless its something ridiculously simple.

It takes a team effort, including finished product appearance and ergonomic design, hardware development, CAD and drawing skills, and a deep knowledge of parts procurement, and final assembly.
 
The software people need not concern themselves with any of that, just write and prove the code, which is the very heart and soul of the product.

Nobody can do it all, at least not as well as a selected team of very experienced experts in their own particular fields.
Edited 2019-12-26 11:47 by Warpspeed
Cheers,  Tony.
 
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