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Forum Index : Microcontroller and PC projects : Any interest in MMBasic for Windows with full Graphics?

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matherp
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Joined: 11/12/2012
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Posted: 08:52am 20 Jan 2022
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It is still cold and miserable in the UK so outside pursuits are on hold and I need a new project.

I have the germ of an idea for how to program a windows graphics version of MMBasic. The idea is that, like the CMM2, it would use a mouse to control the GUI controls and it would support the full set of MMbasic drawing commands. It wouldn't and couldn't replicate any specific existing version of MMbasic so, for example, you couldn't take Mauro's CMM2 programs and run them unchanged but it could eventually support things like true sprites using the graphics card rather than the processor to render them.

This is a big project and takes me outside my "embedded" comfort zone so I only want to start it if there is real interest from a significant user-base.

For those interested in the base technology I'm thinking of using google "one load coder pixelgameengine"

Thoughts?
 
Turbo46

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Joined: 24/12/2017
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Posted: 09:28am 20 Jan 2022
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YES PLEASE! Any expansion of the MMBasic for Windows would be most welcome.

Bill
Keep safe. Live long and prosper.
 
thwill

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Joined: 16/09/2019
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Posted: 09:35am 20 Jan 2022
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Hi Peter,

I'm not going to say "Yes!", not because I don't think it is a good idea, but just because I don't want my vote to count towards someone making a decision to comitting to such a potentially huge sink of their time.

  matherp said  ... I'm thinking of using google "one load coder pixelgameengine"


Typo? presumably you mean "one loNe coder": https://github.com/OneLoneCoder/olcPixelGameEngine.

I wonder if you might be better with something "standard" like SDL as it might have better lifetime and ongoing support - it's what is used for graphics support in the portable version of BBC Basic: https://www.bbcbasic.co.uk/bbcsdl/index.html.

In theory, and ideally I think there should be a future where there is a single source that compiles to build desktop versions of MMBasic for Windows, Linux, ChromeOS, Android, iOS, and whatever today's version of MacOS is called.

I'd volunteer to collaborate on implementing such a future, but I think our styles are too divergent and our amount of free time orders of magnitude too disparate, and if we are honest there is every sign we'd just rub each other up the wrong way . Instead I'm just going to wish you luck and look forward to whatever you might produce. Now hopefully I'm never going to feel the need to stick my oar in again, but feel free to PM me if you do want my input.

Best wishes,

Tom
Edited 2022-01-20 19:57 by thwill
CMM2 Welcome Tape, Creaky old text adventures
 
jirsoft

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Joined: 18/09/2020
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Posted: 09:37am 20 Jan 2022
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Hi Peter,
can it be used in MacOS or Linux too? Is it this one?
I already thought to do the same in Xojo (multiplatform), with one more window used for simulating inputs and visualization of outputs... Finally I have found not so much gain, so I have canceled this idea. But when it will be multiplatform, maybe I can somehow help you (pure Windows version is not too interesting for me).

Jiri
Jiri
Napoleon Commander and SimplEd ¬†for CMM2 (GitHub),  CMM2.fun
 
matherp
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Posted: 10:09am 20 Jan 2022
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  Quote  I wonder if you might be better with something "standard" like SDL


Massively over the top for what is required. PixelGameEngine is a single header file that does everything needed.
It is multiplatform but if I do this it will developed under windows only where I have a proper IDE and I'm not messing around at the command prompt.
It would be up to someone else to set up a development environment under any other OS and get it working
 
Goksteroo
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Joined: 15/03/2021
Location: Australia
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Posted: 10:14am 20 Jan 2022
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Yes please....
 
Volhout
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Joined: 05/03/2018
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Posted: 10:15am 20 Jan 2022
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Hi Peter,

That would fill in the big gap that the current windows/dos version has: graphics support.
I would very much appreciate the addition of the basic graphics functions (like line draw, text, box and circles).

And maybe it is even possible to bring the DOS version to 5.07 (including MATH commands). The current latest (5.05.03) does not have them.

So a very big +1 from me...

Volhout
Edited 2022-01-20 20:16 by Volhout
If nothing goes right ... turn left
 
JohnS
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Posted: 10:16am 20 Jan 2022
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  jirsoft said  can it be used in MacOS or Linux too? Is it this one?

I expect yes & yes.

John
 
fred777
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Joined: 01/07/2021
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Posted: 10:17am 20 Jan 2022
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I'd say don't spend too much time on that. Windows (and Liunx and Mac) already has FreeBasic, PureBasic and Xojo (and who knows what else)
 
flasherror
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Joined: 07/01/2019
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Posted: 11:44am 20 Jan 2022
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  fred777 said  I'd say don't spend too much time on that. Windows (and Liunx and Mac) already has FreeBasic, PureBasic and Xojo (and who knows what else)


I agree with this - I don't see much point in a Windows version of graphical MMBasic that is not compatible with CMM2. (If it was compatible it would make a great CMM2 simulator/emulator)
There is more than enough choice in programming traditional PCs and I don't see MMBasic filling anything other than a niche, and ultimately not being widely adopted or have much of a future. This may not be the best use of resources (although it's ultimately up to you).
Just looking at things realistically here. Might be better to extend existing "DOS" MMBasic to have SQLite database to better handle database use other than simple "flat file" data files. (It would be nice if the Pico/Armmite ports implemented SQLite). Or ESP32-C3 (RISC-V) port?  
Edited 2022-01-20 22:07 by flasherror
 
bigfix
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Joined: 20/02/2014
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Posted: 12:26pm 20 Jan 2022
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It would make sense if it supports some minimum I/O to the outside world
Serial & I2C would be nice, syntax similar to current MMbasic for portability

Eventually it could support an USB to I2C adapter, allowing to connect the GP I2C I/O box, which was just designed in another thread
 
CaptainBoing

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Joined: 07/09/2016
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Posted: 12:27pm 20 Jan 2022
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  matherp said  It is still cold and miserable in the UK so outside pursuits are on hold and I need a new project.


bring the black pill up to a basic level of stability and usability then draw a line under it?
 
Turbo46

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Posted: 12:34pm 20 Jan 2022
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  Quote  bring the black pill up to a basic level of stability and usability then draw a line under it?


Keep safe. Live long and prosper.
 
Mixtel90

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Posted: 01:02pm 20 Jan 2022
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It would certainly be a challenge for you. Peter. :)
If that's the sort of thing you enjoy then I'd say go for it, by all means, but IMHO the desktop computing world doesn't *need* any more languages, not even versions of BASIC. You would be doing this for your own enjoyment - and if you don't think of it like that then it might be better to consider something else to fill in your spare time until Spring. :)

The big problem with desktop versions is that they don't have user IO since the parallel ports disappeared, and MMBasic is very IO orientated. To get IO you have to add USB support together with suitable USB connected IO. I, personally, wouldn't be happy, even if I could do a top rate port of MMBasic to windows with graphics, sound and whatever, unless I could also get that IO.
Mick

Zilog Inside! nascom.info for Nascom & Gemini
Preliminary MMBasic docs
 
nutson
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Joined: 01/07/2019
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Posted: 01:34pm 20 Jan 2022
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"It would make sense if it supports some minimum I/O to the outside world
Serial & I2C would be nice, syntax similar to current MMbasic for portability

Eventually it could support an USB to I2C adapter, allowing to connect the GP I2C I/O box, which was just designed in another thread"

I share the opinion of forum member bigfix. The 'mite family is for me a vehicle to control things WHILE having options for making a userinterface.
 
lizby
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Joined: 17/05/2016
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Posted: 01:50pm 20 Jan 2022
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Yes to MMBasic for windows with graphics, and especially yes if the following is included.

  bigfix said  It would make sense if it supports some minimum I/O to the outside world
Serial & I2C would be nice, syntax similar to current MMbasic for portability

Eventually it could support an USB to I2C adapter, allowing to connect the GP I2C I/O box, which was just designed in another thread
 
robert.rozee
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Joined: 31/12/2012
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 1987
Posted: 02:00pm 20 Jan 2022
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  CaptainBoing said  
  matherp said  It is still cold and miserable in the UK so outside pursuits are on hold and I need a new project.


bring the black pill up to a basic level of stability and usability then draw a line under it?


i too believe effort would be well spent bring the black pill up to the same level as the MX170. ditch VGA video and PS2 keyboard (as the Pico seems to do these nicely) and get the USB console working.


i also believe that there is more to do on the Pico. imagine getting the USB working on the other core (shared with VGA for the VGA version) and 'compartmenting' the MMbasic firmware on its own so that if it crashes then USB stays running.

such a project: VGA + USB running on core1, with an effectively sandboxed user application able to be run on core0 would be a nice addition to the Pico ecosystem (outside of the MMbasic world) that would garner wide interest and praise.


cheers,
rob   :-)
 
robert.rozee
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Posted: 02:04pm 20 Jan 2022
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  bigfix said  It would make sense if it supports some minimum I/O to the outside world
Serial & I2C would be nice, syntax similar to current MMbasic for portability. Eventually it could support an USB to I2C adapter, allowing to connect the GP I2C I/O box, which was just designed in another thread


isn't this pretty close to just a Pico tethered to a PC, with the PC running a graphical terminal emulator? the Pico is likely the cheapest multi-function USB expansion device out there, be it used just an I/O expander or as a platform running MMbasic.


cheers,
rob   :-)
Edited 2022-01-21 00:05 by robert.rozee
 
matherp
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Posted: 02:16pm 20 Jan 2022
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  Quote  i also believe that there is more to do on the Pico. imagine getting the USB working on the other core (shared with VGA for the VGA version) and 'compartmenting' the MMbasic firmware on its own so that if it crashes then USB stays running.


I am not on any platform digging around in the guts of USB - absolutely no interest. Wouldn't work anyway, even a few extra statements on core 1 b...rs the VGA
 
Mixtel90

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Posted: 02:22pm 20 Jan 2022
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Anyone fancy turning a Black Pill into an I2C slave? It would be a better candidate than the Pico simply because it has more ADC ports. This device could be linked to a PC via a USB-I2C converter or to 'mites.
Mick

Zilog Inside! nascom.info for Nascom & Gemini
Preliminary MMBasic docs
 
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