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Forum Index : EV's : EV 4

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Trev

Guru

Joined: 15/07/2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 497
 Posted: 11:12pm 04 Feb 2008 Copy link to clipboard Print this post

Hi All
Some raw data on performance of the Toyota Hilux 2.7 litre petrol converted to electric drive.

Weight
before, 1363kg
after, 1940kg (measured), but with changes after expect it to be 1926 kg

Hp
before, from The Red Book, 108kW @ 4800rpm = aprox 144hp
after, rated at 100

but voltage is 144 nominal at max 500 amp (speed controller max) = 72,000 watts. Therefore 72 kW / 0.746 = 96.5 hp.

Acceleration
before, 0-60km/hr in 6 seconds, 0-100km/hr in 15 seconds
after 0-60 in 12 seconds, 0-80km/hr in 18 seconds, and 0-100km/hr in 30 seconds.

Top Speed
Have had it to 120 km/hr on relative flat ground and don’t expect any more.

Amp Draw
200-250 amps at 100 km/hr
130-150 amps at 80 km/hr
80-100 amps at 60 km/hr all on relatively flat ground.

Range
Have done 100 km driving at 80 km/hr on highway
Have done 80 km driving at 100 km/hr on highway
Town driving at 60 km/hr (accelerate and coast) is expected to be at least 120 km, but still yet to test it.

Electricity
1) 50km driving used 19.2 kW measured at the supply meter box.
2) 60 km driving used 20 kW measured at the supply meter box.

Electricity Cost
1)19.2 kW / 50km x \$0.06 (super economy rate) x 100 = \$2.42 per 100 km
2) 20 kW / 60km x \$0.06 (super economy rate) x 100 = \$2.10 per 100km.

Total km
driven so far is 342182 – 340092 = 2090km

There has been lots of general use. All the usual things you use a ute for. It’s a great ferry taking Dale (my young boy) to school and back. Marcy has been driving it more than me.

No problems driving in the rain, and muddy/gravel road. I have driven through the creek that is between home and the highway, water about 200-300mm deep.

Edited by Trev 2008-02-06
Trev @ http://www.thebackshed.com/basiclynatural/

Trev

Guru

Joined: 15/07/2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 497
 Posted: 11:25pm 04 Feb 2008 Copy link to clipboard Print this post

Tested a 5 KVA generator as range extender. Connected to the charger, there is only 15 amps delivered to the batteries. Rectified and connected direct to the batteries I was getting 23 amps. Not a lot of power considering the amp draw, 23 amps charging, and 200-250 amps discharging, but set out to see how it works. Had driven about 20 km and the brush holder melted and spat one of the brushes out. I will work on some other ideas / experiments that I have in mind. But I think the best solution is having a much lighter vehicle in the first place, so the amp draw is much less.

Trev @ http://www.thebackshed.com/basiclynatural/

Trev

Guru

Joined: 15/07/2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 497
 Posted: 11:31pm 04 Feb 2008 Copy link to clipboard Print this post

There is some battery problems. I had done about 50 km of driving and at the destination discovered that the 2 batteries in the rear box had become so hot that the plastic case had softened and swelled like footballs. The top is no longer sealed. The worst one was removed and replaced with the 13th one purchased at the same time. This swelled one is still working connected in with the wind and solar setup. The other swelled battery is still in the EV and still working.

I have emailed several times to the supplier and importer with no satisfactory answers why this has happened. They simply don’t know, but say it is likely to swell in charging. The swelling occurred in discharge while driving the vehicle.

I do not expect that these 2 swelled batteries will last very long, due to dry out. The batteries are just over 1 yr old with a 2 yr warranty and it appears that they are questioning and refusing to honor the warranty. I will no longer recommend these batteries as suitable for EV use, even though they still claim they are. There is no problem with the other 10 batteries all tightly packed together in the front box. To me, it seems to be a manufacturing fault. If they do honor the warranty I will make a posting to say so.

If any one has any clues why the heat and swelling, I would love to hear.

Now we have a range of about 70km at 80km/hr.

Trev @ http://www.thebackshed.com/basiclynatural/

Trev

Guru

Joined: 15/07/2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 497
 Posted: 12:08am 05 Feb 2008 Copy link to clipboard Print this post

New batteries are in the process and we do not expect this should have any effect whatsoever on the warranty issue with the Powersonic batteries.

Thundersky Lithium cells are the latest addition to our product range. I have done some theoretical comparisons between wet cell, AGM, and Gel lead acid, with Lithium. Email me if you want a copy of these comparisons.

We have received the first order of Thundersky Lithium cells. Our pack is part of this order. I made a small error in not checking the input voltage to the charger. I had assumed the input was 240v single phase, but it is 380v 3 phase. So this one has to go back and they will sent another one. We will fit our Thundersky Lithium as soon as we recieve the other charger.

These cells are 3.2v nominal, so we have 45 cells in series to give the operating voltage of 144v nominal. Each cell is 200 a/hr. This is more useful electricity storage because there is no peukarts effect, like there is with lead acid.

Weight is only 7.6kg /cell x 45 = 342 kg. The AGM lead acid currently in use is 64 kg x 12 = 768 kg. A weight reduction of 768 - 342 = 426 kg.

We expect that our EV performance will greatly improve.

Trev @ http://www.thebackshed.com/basiclynatural/

sPuDd

Senior Member

Joined: 10/07/2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 247
 Posted: 06:42am 05 Feb 2008 Copy link to clipboard Print this post

mmmmmmmmm ThunderSky

All the EV's I've seen to date that use the ThunderSky
LiOn's have been very succesful.

426Kg diet for the Toyota should help a lot. I'd love
to see a new set of test figures once this is done.
What is the specs for the single phase charger for the LiOn's?

Nice work as always Trev,

sPuDd..
It should work ...in theory

Tinker

Guru

Joined: 07/11/2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 1904
 Posted: 02:54pm 05 Feb 2008 Copy link to clipboard Print this post

Thanks for that Trev, very interesting.
Could you also post a description and perhaps pictures of the electric motor?
One of my dreams is to one day make an electric powered boat - those Li cells look mighty interesting too.
I'd appreciate a copy of your battery comparism test.
Klaus
Klaus

Trev

Guru

Joined: 15/07/2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 497
 Posted: 11:18am 06 Feb 2008 Copy link to clipboard Print this post

sPuDd, I won't know details of the charger for a while as the factory is closed for Chinese New Year.

Tinker, have a look at EV Conversion, that is page 1 of this whole process. I have some pictures of the motor in there. Yes, boats are a special interest with me too. One day will look at the electric boat concept. Klaus you will need to send me an email so I have an email address to send the theoretical battery comparison.

Trev @ http://www.thebackshed.com/basiclynatural/

Tinker

Guru

Joined: 07/11/2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 1904
 Posted: 02:31pm 06 Feb 2008 Copy link to clipboard Print this post

Trev, it would be nice to *have* your e-mail address .

the one at your sig line does not work and there is none in your member data.

Mine is: norbert3008atmsn.com - replace the 'at' as usual.

Klaus
Klaus

Trev

Guru

Joined: 15/07/2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 497
 Posted: 10:22am 09 Feb 2008 Copy link to clipboard Print this post

Klaus,
My sig line is a web page, not email. And I don't know why my email link in the member data don't work. Perhaps I will have to get Glenn to have a look at it.

I will attempt to send you an email.
Trev @ http://www.thebackshed.com/basiclynatural/

onetruerick

Newbie

Joined: 04/12/2007
Location: United States
Posts: 4
 Posted: 12:21am 12 Feb 2008 Copy link to clipboard Print this post

I would also like to see your battery comparison. I am doing an EV conversion using a Geo Tracker (2WD) - a fairly small and lightweight vehicle. I am interested in seeing your battery comparison, as I am planning on using about 1100 lb (500 kg) of lead acid batteries.

Once question - how large are the Thundersky batteries? They look rather large, and in my vehicle, space is as much a concern as weight.

Thanks,
Rick Williams
richard.w.williams@nasa.gov
Rick

Trev

Guru

Joined: 15/07/2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 497
 Posted: 09:03pm 12 Feb 2008 Copy link to clipboard Print this post

Rick,
Your email is private in your member data, you can get my email from the website in the signature line at the bottom. Send me an email and then I will be able to send you the battery comparison info.

For battery sizing etc, look at the website and there you will find a link to Thundersky website with all the details of the cells. They are smaller and lighter than the lead acid.
Trev @ http://www.thebackshed.com/basiclynatural/

sPuDd

Senior Member

Joined: 10/07/2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 247
 Posted: 09:23am 13 Feb 2008 Copy link to clipboard Print this post

Trev,

don't leave us in suspenders !!
We want to hear about the first EV
getting a speeding ticket

sPuDd..
It should work ...in theory

Trev

Guru

Joined: 15/07/2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 497
 Posted: 09:02pm 30 Mar 2008 Copy link to clipboard Print this post

Surprise surprise, it has now been 4 1/2 months, but I just received an email from Powersonic! They intend to send me 2 new batteries, under warranty!

We are still driving on the Powersonic batteries, even with one of the swelled batteries still in the pack.Edited by Trev 2008-04-01
Trev @ http://www.thebackshed.com/basiclynatural/

Trev

Guru

Joined: 15/07/2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 497
 Posted: 07:15am 06 Apr 2008 Copy link to clipboard Print this post

Thankyou Powersonic, we have recieved the 2 new batteries.

Trev @ http://www.thebackshed.com/basiclynatural/

Trev

Guru

Joined: 15/07/2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 497
 Posted: 07:42am 06 Apr 2008 Copy link to clipboard Print this post

We have now fitted temporary the Thundersky Lithium batteries.
Initial charging is by the Zivan charger (used for the powersonic).

First drive did 40km using approx 10kw according to the screen.

After recharging again set out for max. distance driving at 80km/hr and achieved 140km using approx 25kw according to the screen.

That is double the range over the Powersonic AGM lead acid (70km, but with one swelled battery still in the pack.)

More testing and performance details later.

Edited by Trev 2008-04-07
Trev @ http://www.thebackshed.com/basiclynatural/

dwyer
Guru

Joined: 19/09/2005
Location: Australia
Posts: 573
 Posted: 08:18am 06 Apr 2008 Copy link to clipboard Print this post

Hi Trev
I am glad that Powersonic has gave their honour by replace 2 faulty batteries and this is very good for the company and their business so they are trying to look after you and customer interest as many other batteries business don’t alway look after or care about it. Anyway I am halfway building portable batteries shed and also thank for deliver the windmill blade to my place and also loving conversation on that day, Remember about truck alternator over Eddy current we talk about on rare magnet l have cut down with 100 mm angle grinder to V shape same shape as steel amateur and work well until one of rare magnet came apart and seize up truck alt so left on the lathe for time be.
Regard Ian

dwyer the bushman

GWatPE

Senior Member

Joined: 01/09/2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 2127
 Posted: 12:24pm 06 Apr 2008 Copy link to clipboard Print this post

Trev said  Electricity Cost
1)19.2 kW / 50km x \$0.06 (super economy rate) x 100 = \$2.42 per 100 km
2) 20 kW / 60km x \$0.06 (super economy rate) x 100 = \$2.10 per 100km.

Trev said   We have now fitted temporary the Thundersky Lithium batteries.

First drive did 40km using approx 10kw according to the screen.

Hi Trev,

What is the difference between the 2 sets of data? Are the lipo batteries that much more efficient? Is it possible the weight difference has made this much difference? I make it \$1.50/100km.

The results are looking good.

cheers, Gordon.
become more energy aware

Trev

Guru

Joined: 15/07/2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 497
 Posted: 11:17pm 19 Apr 2008 Copy link to clipboard Print this post

Some futher performance details of the Thundersky Lithium batteries.

Acceleration
0-60km/hr in 10 seconds
0-80km/hr in 18 seconds
0-100km/hr in 29 seconds
All measured on relatively flat ground. I am not happy with these tests, the vehicle is 420??kg lighter and it feels to accelerate quicker, but anyhow that’s the numbers measured.

Amp draw
at 60km/hr between 50-100amps
at 80km/hr between 120-150amp
at 100km/hr between 180-250amps.
All measured on relatively flat ground.

Range
Have done 140km driving at 80km/hr using approx 25kw according to the screen.
Have done 93km driving at 100km/hr using 20kw, so should be able to drive 93km / 20kw x 25kw = 116km using 25kw.
This should still leave some capacity spare as the batteries are 200ah x 144v = 28.8kw

Cost
Driving 40km on 10kw is according to the BMS screen. Yes, Gordon this does make 10kw x \$0.06 / 40km x 100km = \$1.50 per 100km, but not correct due to the losses in the charging system etc. This is the same with driving 140km using approx 25kw.

Had driven 112km mostly at 100km/hr and used 24.5kw according to the screen. The Kw measured at the supply meter box was 37kw. Dollars then would be 37kw x \$0.06 / 112km x 100km = \$1.98 per 100km

Driven a total of approx 635km. These batteries have been sold and the new owner is using them in a 4wd, main application as an electric farm tractor.

These batteries are far superior to lead acid, even the speed controller can see the difference, it does not get as hot. I did not notice any thermal cut back at all. And its not that we now have cooler weather, after swapping back to the Powersonic, I have noticed the thermal cutback.

I have ordered another set of batteries and if anyone wants to get in on the same shipment, I can give a very good price. Economies of scale are very good with multiple orders in the same shipment. If anyone is interested, you will need to contact me asap.

I tested the big 60A 3phase charger at the local saw mill and it works very good. It can charge the battery pack in 3-5hrs from right empty. For those that don't have 3 phase power, the option is, Thundersky have granted the normal warranty on the bateries if we use Zivan NG3 (single phase) chargers, along with the Thundersky BMS.

I would not build another EV with lead acid! of any form.

The Powersonic batteries are good, but probably better suited to the wind and solar applications.

Trev @ http://www.thebackshed.com/basiclynatural/

dwyer
Guru

Joined: 19/09/2005
Location: Australia
Posts: 573
 Posted: 10:07am 22 Apr 2008 Copy link to clipboard Print this post

Hi Trev
Have alook The DIY Electric Sports Car
Close but not there yet
by Julian Edgar
Click on pics to view larger images

Mark Fowler has built himself an electric sports car. The IT professional has done what many people dream about but few seldom achieve. The car’s based on an off-the-shelf kit Clubman, but Mark has added an electric motor, control gear and batteries.

And if the end result isn’t quite what he expected, well, the project’s not finished...

The Birkin PRB S3 Clubman uses an epoxy-coated steel frame fitted with aluminium panelling. The rear suspension comprises a solid axle located by four trailing links and a Panhard rod. Front suspension uses unequal length upper and lower wishbones, an anti-roll bar and coil-over dampers.

Brakes are discs front and rear, with four-spot front aluminium calipers. Steering is non-power rack and pinion, and the kit also includes an adjustable aluminium pedal box.

But of course it’s the non-standard parts that are the most interesting.

The underbonnet scenery comprises a clear plastic panel on which are mounted a throttle position potentiometer connected by cable to the accelerator pedal. The pot talks to a 1000 amp Zilla DC motor speed controller that works with an Advanced DC ‘9 inch’ electric motor, located beneath these components. Mark says the continuous output of the motor is 20kW but that short term, it’s good for something like 100kW.

The motor is bolted to a 5-speed gearbox that in turn drives a conventional tailshaft to the standard kit differential.

Near the speed controller you’ll find an 800 amp main fuse, and a mains-powered battery charger capable of outputting 20 amps at the full 144V battery voltage. A DC/DC converter keeps a tiny 12V SLA battery charged – this is primarily for safety in powering lights and instruments should the main battery pack need to be shut down.

All fine and good so far – so what’s this about the project not turning out as expected? Batteries... ah batteries...

Batteries are located in the nose of the car, under the boot and (when fitted), either side of the pictured electric motor. Unlike the other electric cars we’ve covered in AutoSpeed, Mark’s car uses lithium ion batteries. But in this case, it looks very much as if going to the new technology has not been the expected success. Lithium ion batteries are far lighter than lead acid batteries of the same capacity. They also have better performance characteristics in terms of being able to continuously supply high current.

But the lithium ion batteries in Mark’s car have proved to be a complete flop. The first generation ThunderSky lithium cobalt designs have turned out to have an instantaneous current rating far lower than claimed. In fact, Mark told us that while the original data suggested that the batteries would be able to generate 300 amps in short bursts, the actual figure is more like 30 amps! The battery voltage also sags hugely (and stays low), the two aspects resulting in a massive shortfall in car performance.

To a degree, Mark is philosophical about the battery disaster. While recently in North America he attended electric drag racers and saw what real high performance lithium ion batteries are capable of. ThunderSky also now has a new range of lithium ion batteries, and these are apparently a much better proposition. However, having already spent around \$11,000 on batteries, Mark is not looking at using the same supplier. Instead, he’s considering spending \$40,000 on state of the art batteries that would give the car phenomenal performance.

But, as he wryly says, “I don’t have forty thousand dollars lying around - I’d have to sell one of my kids!”

After spending around \$50,000 all-up, the frustration of having a car with everything but the expected performance must be great. We went for a ride in the car and it felt taut, well suspended and was eerily quiet. The quality of build finish is excellent, with the carbon fibre dash panel featuring gauges for 80 – 160 battery volts, motor amps, motor rpm and vehicle speed. But as soon as Mark put his foot down, the needle on the battery voltage gauge sagged off the lower end... (Although it must be said that Mark has currently only 86V of batteries installed.)

In addition to new batteries, Mark would also like to give the gearbox the flick (he uses only 4th and reverse gears, and reverse is easily catered for by changing the polarity of the DC motor feed) and perhaps upgrade the DC motor and controller for something more powerful. But the latter’s another unknown – because even with the current motor/controller, decent batteries should give the 640kg car great performance.

It all really depends on where you’re coming from. A high performance petrol engine with programmable engine management and perhaps a turbo, new fuel tank and fuel pumps, and a new custom radiator could easily tip the balance of fifteen or twenty thousand dollars. An engine with a lot of power could go much higher in cost. In this context, shelling out, say, \$20,000 for a battery pack that would make the car go hard is reasonable.

An all-up cost of about \$70,000 for a unique car with strong performance, very good handling – and running costs of only cents a day – could even be warranted.

And Mark’s struggling with just that justification...

dwyer
Guru

Joined: 19/09/2005
Location: Australia
Posts: 573
 Posted: 10:16am 22 Apr 2008 Copy link to clipboard Print this post

Hi Trev
sorry no photos as should come on as l accident click wrong on Post Reply instead Preview Post Maybe Gizmo might able to fix the problem or delete it ??

dwyer

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