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BarkyJ
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Posted: 26 April 2018 at 7:43pm | IP Logged Quote BarkyJ

Hi there,

Been watching this forum for a number of years on and off, and finally deciding to get involved and give something a crack and see how far I get.

At the moment I live in a suburb of sorts, in Wellington NZ, I live on a corner section with neighbours to my front and one side. The section backs onto a banked hillside covered in gorse and other scrub.
I am wanting to put up some kind of windmill, to start out as just a project to see what happens, but to hopefully end up being something useful.

In the next few years we hope to move to a lifestyle block, so at that point hopefully I can scale things up a bit and have a bit more fun after I have learnt some more.

We had a P&F Smartdrive of some kind a few years ago, and I pulled out the stator/rotor and drive shaft some time before I found this page. Its 0.5mm thick windings, and is a 2002 era machine.
Today I had the urge to go to our local trash shop which is on the side of the dump, and I found about 8 stators (some worse for wear), but sadly no rotors (however I am going back for another look - as I called them and they think they should have them).
I took 2 of the 8 stators I found, these are 0.8mm wiring, the others left there are a mix of 0.8mm and 0.6mm it seems (possibly 0.5mm like I have already).
I then called a local appliance repair, and they were just about to throw a machine out, so whipped down the road, and got another stator/rotor set (sadly didnt manage to get the driveshaft on this occasion), just before it went onto the truck to be dumped. I havent measured this, but its likely a 0.5 or 0.6 again, looks like a 1999 machine.

So I now have 4 stators and 2 rotors, all 48 pole, 56 magnets.

I had not heard or seen 0.5mm mentioned, only 60/80/100 mentioned, maybe a 40. May be wrong. Anyway...

After doing some quick refresher reading this afternoon (instead of working...), I am thinking of going towards the 7 phase setup, and trying to find a rotor or two which has the 48 magnets instead of the 56 magnet versions I have now, and using them with the 48 coil stators.
Is this still classed as a good idea, removes the cogging effect without having to file the stator down etc?

I am not yet sure what I should aim for battery wise, but likely 12V or 24V at a guess.

Had a quick look on Aliexpress.com just to see what kind of stuff they have for controllers these days, and there are quite a few options. Just curious if anyone has brought anything which is suitable for these windmills, from the likes of Aliexpress, and if they are decent enough?

I have an electronics engineering background, but have never dabbled with any sort of power generation or large systems like this could end up, but eager to get involved and try things out.

I design controllers of sort currently for work, so can make the logic side control system easy enough, its just the power side I need to do some more reading on but should be able to tackle easy enough - hopefully.

My aim to start with it just get something going, but with the aim of making supplementary power to heat my water cylinder, instead of just mains power for that. Powering anything else can come later, but I thought if I could at least dump everything into the hot water cylinder, then that will save a few bucks, as that is our highest cost appliance, power wise. Then when that is up to temp, I could dump it to some lighting or an old heater or something.

Really interesting to make a dual motor setup, to take advantage of low wind up to medium wind, but I dont want to have a massive turbine as the property (and neighbours) likely wont allow. Dual may not be possible with a smaller turbine though (?), but at least with the 7 phase and reduced cogging I hope that will have some positive effect. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Any and all help welcome and appreciated.

Anyway - hello everyone, let my learning begin :)


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flc1
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Posted: 28 April 2018 at 8:59am | IP Logged Quote flc1

Gday Barky, welcome to the site.
I would suggest you find a 36 pole copper f n p stator with a black rotor cap, they have almost no cogging and more wireing options, I have bought inverters etc from aliexpress, most of it works well. check out my f n p build, should help with what you are doing.
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BarkyJ
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Posted: 28 April 2018 at 9:36am | IP Logged Quote BarkyJ

Hey Flc1,

Yep I had a good read of your build the other day, very impressive stuff.

I guess the part I am stuck on is the selection of the coil wiring vs the stator/cap combos.
I have read the rewiring posts, and thats all good, reducing voltage, increasing current etc, and the various star/delta options which I need to go over again. But what has me at the moment is comparing the likes of 36 pole vs 42 pole, and then the 7 phase option with 42 pole with the 36's cap. Just if there is benefit to this, or if you just end up using 36 poles as is.

Does the 7 phase solution have benefits (42 pole with the 48 magnets, instead of the 56 magnets it comes with) over a 36 pole with its 48 magnets? I know the 42 pole with its 56 magnets has significant cogging.

You did mention to just use a 36 pole - of which I have not yet found any. I am picking up a machine today which is only 4-5 years old it seems, so hopefully it has something lovely inside for me. Its controller died apparently, so getting it for $50. Bit more than I was hoping, but if I can get my first 36 pole with black cap, I am all for it.

I have then seen places like this selling ones, which I had not seen before. I assume these are newer again? 27 pole? black caps.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Rotor-And-Stator-MB30W63-Fisher-Paykel-/112711500167
Is this type better than the 36 pole ones?

Just trying to figure out what I need to keep an eye out for, as at the moment im just in the gathering stage :)

Sorry for all the Q's.

Cheers
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BarkyJ
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Posted: 28 April 2018 at 9:49am | IP Logged Quote BarkyJ

I am assuming its the 2004-2008 period that has the good stuff?
2008 onwards is aluminium windings... hmm, how do those go for this stuff?
Curious what I am going to find in the machine today.

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BarkyJ
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Posted: 28 April 2018 at 3:49pm | IP Logged Quote BarkyJ

OK the machine today was a 36 pole with black cover - nice. However it seems to be 2011/2012 era based on the owner, which doesnt line up with my previous post.

Got a 2nd machine too, has a grey cover, standard 42 pole, 60 series. Unsure why Grey over White cover though.

Got the shafts out of both, will get the bearings out tomorrow.

The pump for pumping out the water to the drain, on the 36 pole machine, so much better than the older ones that sort of clipped into the tub of the machine. This has a discrete in pipe and out pipe, rather than just a paddle which runs inside that little cover on the machine. Will be useful for another project :)

Edited by BarkyJ on 28 April 2018 at 4:51pm
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flc1
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Posted: 28 April 2018 at 5:14pm | IP Logged Quote flc1

if the 36 had a black cap on it ,then its probably a aluminium wound stator, should have ali or somthing similar stamped on it, try to find a older copper 36 pole stator...bit more power output,
you could use a 42 pole stator and rotor if you like, but more work involved with setting them up, decogging etc, and the power output is not as good as a 36, but each to there own I guess.
My advise would be to go with a mppt charge controller for batterys or a mppt gridtie inverter for the grid if you are going that way, stay away from low voltage like 12 volt setup,its to low and 24 volt is too low aswell I rekon ...to much hassel with big cables ,big fuses ,more cutting of stators etc, 12 and 24 volt is for cars n trucks.
If I blow my own trumpet here I would suggest you read my turbine page and davep 68 pages and you will see the rpm-voltage-stator cut setups. Allso a lot of other testing results for f n ps from other people on here such as fillm, mine is just abit easier to find on the forum at the moment. good luck
can you post some pics?
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DaveP68
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Posted: 28 April 2018 at 5:17pm | IP Logged Quote DaveP68

Hi BarkyJ

Fred is correct with sticking with 36 pole "copper" stators. Machines made between the end 2005 and 2008 all have them. Ignore the 2004 date in the above "Beginning of the Direct Drive" table, as that's when 36 pole the "technology was first developed in the lab" not for sale in a retail store.

DO NOT bother trying to use a 36 pole stator with aluminium windings...

Track machines by product codes, here's a list with copper 36 pole stators;
92125-A, 92127-A, 92194-A, 92195-A, 92196-A, 92198-A, 92200-A, 92201-A, 92202-A, 92203-A, 92220-A, 92221-A
Machines made between 2005 and 2008 had a cream/white rotor cap with standard strength magnets.

The "black rotor" caps have a 40% stronger set of magnets and have been standard on all machine made since 2009.
Some model numbers are as follows;
WA55T56MW1, WA55T56GW1, WA65T60MW1, WA65T60GW1, MW513, MW613, MW60 etc...

The 7 phase solution applied to a 42 pole stator and has no benefit if you can get hold of a 36 pole copper stator. Like Fred stated above the 36 pole stators have almost no cogging and more wiring options, so don't bother with the 42 pole stator unless you have too.

Hope this helps.

David
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BarkyJ
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Posted: 28 April 2018 at 7:30pm | IP Logged Quote BarkyJ

Hi guys

Thanks for the replies.

So I have 3x 60 and 2x 80 series, 42 pole stators.
I then have 1x 60 series AL60 stamped stator with rounded poles, which I am guessing is Aluminium? (dammit).

I have 3x 56 magnet caps, 2 are white, 1 is grey.
And 1x 48 magnet black cap.

The 36 pole stator came out of a WA70T60GW1 machine - 7kg machine, also marked with 92129-A.

Here are some pictures.



































Cheers
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BarkyJ
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Posted: 29 April 2018 at 10:47am | IP Logged Quote BarkyJ

Getting another one shortly, this is an Elba by F&P, hopefully is OK too.
WA65TM - 92206-A

And have found 2 others, both 92194-A from the listing above, which should be copper 36 pole in theory. But haven't secured those yet.

The 36 pole I have already is definitely AL, right?
Is there a reason the AL ones are not OK for this application?
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DaveP68
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Posted: 29 April 2018 at 12:07pm | IP Logged Quote DaveP68

Hi BarkyJ

Yes the 36 pole stator pictured above is aluminium with AL60 printed on it.

The part # of a 36 pole copper stator is 420775P and this should be on a sticker located close to the 3 phase connection point.

Product codes 92204-A, 92206-A, 92206-A, & 92207-A should all have copper stators.

There are more product codes, but the list will just grow too big as I limited it to the most commonly made machines rather everything that was in production. Some models were only produced in limited numbers as weren't so popular.

Their were 2 Aluminium stators made with the early version having a resistance between phases of about 48 ohms, the later version that is still in production is now 38 ohms between phases.

The Aluminium stators aren't as efficient as the copper version due to their higher resistance. Also rewiring stators is generally done using solder that often contains tin and may cause an electrochemical corrosion problem due to its galvanic potential.

Their are plenty of 36 pole copper stators out there so stick with them.

The 0.6 mm wire that the 36 pole copper stator is viewed by some individuals as a limitation due to the lower current higher voltage produced. But this isn't a valid point with 12x wiring combinations (6x star or 6x delta) that can be done a wide variety of application can be covered. If more current is required at a lower operating voltage, just rewire it to suit that application.

The 42 pole stator (excluding 7 phase rewiring) have 8x rewiring combinations (4x star or 4x delta) per stator version. There of course are 3 different versions of 42 pole stator which does end up giving them a few more combinations in total. The 2 draw backs of 42 pole stators are a lower output power potential with the standard 56 magnet rotor cap and require decogging.

Hope my post isn't too long, just want to cover off a few not so obvious points.
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flc1
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Posted: 29 April 2018 at 12:12pm | IP Logged Quote flc1

AL is ok to use but its a bastard to try to solder ,,copper conducts electricity better than AL ,so you should get a bit more power from a copper stator with a black cap.
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BarkyJ
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Posted: 29 April 2018 at 12:28pm | IP Logged Quote BarkyJ

So the ALBA machine I just got is marked 92206-A, and its 36 pole Copper with a white rotor with 16 (48) Magnets :)

I then dropped off all the other junk at the Dump shop and had another look and saw I missed a stator, which is also 36 pole Copper :)

So now I have 2x 36 pole copper, 1x 36 pole Aluminium, and 2x 48 Magnet rotors (1 black, 1 white)
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