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Posted: 29 June 2010 at 10:41am | IP Logged Quote kingull

I tested it last evening on 120 PSI with 4 mm jet. It would not spin up.
Ran test again. Snapped the two inch valve open instantly and that bounced it over the clamp barrier. (Stupid design need brief time delay on clamp).

The unit ran satisfactorily and the GTI came in as it should do.
Tests abandoned as have wife sick right now.

This test was from head tank half way. Total head may exceed 300.PSI.
I have also a welded stainless steel TURGO from USA.
No limitation on nozzle pressure so might build a custom unit and sell the Eco unit.

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Posted: 04 July 2010 at 3:20pm | IP Logged Quote KarlJ

sounds like a really good site for micro hydro
400W continuous is awesome

9.6KW/day is better or as good as 2KW solar which would also run into $10K quickly

having that kind of water resource, i'd be maxing out that inverter and running two of them.

that said it needs to work first, good luck.


Luck favours the well prepared
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Matt Sagen

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Posted: 29 July 2010 at 2:11pm | IP Logged Quote Matt Sagen

I created both the EcoInnovation.co.nz website and the PowerSpout.com website.

Michael Lawley is an award-winning engineer, a recognized expert in renewable energy, and a fantastic educator. He has inspired thousands of people to uptake renewable energy.

What mister Fallon does not mention in his posts is that he got 30 email replies to his queries, and more than used up his included technical support.

The dealer in this case did not tell him to download the online manual, which is not sent with the unit in order to ensure that the latest version is received, as it is continually improved.

PowerSpouts are made for the site details provided, and if the testing conditions (ie, using your finger) are not as per those details provided by the customer, the results will not be as promised.

Anyone is welcome to read what other customers are saying:

As to KarlJ, your suggestion that mister Fallon defraud EcoInnovation by saying that a product had been paid for, when it fact it had not, is not funny. You have no place making professional recommendations on any public forum if this is your attitude.

Edited by Matt Sagen on 29 July 2010 at 2:14pm
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Posted: 30 July 2010 at 11:30am | IP Logged Quote Downwind

Matt Sagen

If people are unhappy with the way your web site is constructed and feel information is lacking then it is you who should listen to the comments.

There was several problems rasied with the product received that should be addressed before shipment.

As for your comment here....
As to KarlJ, your suggestion that mister Fallon defraud EcoInnovation by saying that a product had been paid for, when it fact it had not, is not funny. You have no place making professional recommendations on any public forum if this is your attitude.

I read through the thread and can not see where Karl has implyed this and think you are the one making comments on a public forum with a bad attitude.


Edited by Gizmo on 30 July 2010 at 11:48am

Sometimes it just works
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Posted: 30 July 2010 at 11:52am | IP Logged Quote Gizmo

Hey Pete I toned it down a bit, hope you dont mind.

I agree though, I dont see where Karl said anything along those lines.

Matt I would look at what the guys are saying, its contructive critism that should be listened to. Eco Inovation does have a good reputation, but little things like those mentioned above can give any business a bad name in some circles.


"If it dont fit, use a bigger hammer."

The Back Shed
JAQ Software
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Posted: 30 July 2010 at 8:20pm | IP Logged Quote Bryan1

First sorry Glenn if I'm out of line

Where does this new member Matt Sagen come in here sprouting he SETUP THE WEBSITES and earlier in the thread Kingull mentioned iron filings in his product. All of this points to a few so-called backyard guys calling themselves leaders in the field selling products that should be considered fraud in this country. I do know of a few people who bought their products and had no end of problems. In one case I ended up making whole new unit for the basic cost of parts and after a heap of lost time we got it working.


Since when have you ever been out of line Bryan? Glenn.

Edited by Gizmo on 06 August 2010 at 10:05am
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Posted: 30 July 2010 at 11:56pm | IP Logged Quote VK4AYQ

Hi All

Expert in any field must be proven by results, and reading the posts I see a lack of communication skills, there may be some problems with swarf getting into the magnets and as we all know this a serious problem with PM generators, but as with the Chinese ones you have to clean it out, the lock down brake problem, is a jet problem as there isn't enough initial torque to break out with small jets, for the expert web designer to come out and defend poor communication is a waste of time, as there should be a direct comm between the expert designer and maker to make sure it is working properly.

To have a limit on the number of email contacts is stupid as it will get the product a bad name even if one in a hundred doesn't get going properly, as everybody talks about it in a negative sense rather than how good it is.

All the best


Foolin Around
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Matt Sagen

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Posted: 06 August 2010 at 8:02am | IP Logged Quote Matt Sagen

Thanks for the responses,

I can see that I attributed the quote to the wrong user, apologies KarlJ.

Bryan1 is the user whose comments Posted: 25 June 2010 at 5:05pm were not acceptable:

If you paid for it by credit card get in contact and tell them you didn't get what you paid for and cancel the payment...

...knowing that the product had already been received. This would be fraudulent. A moderator should demand that this be stricken or at least a warning issued lest you become tagged as a place where people get advice to break the law.

You can read Franks actual testimony from his email to PowerSpout, once he followed PowerSpout's advice to put the unit in place on the hydro source it was customized for, rather than testing it with a wireless drill, here:

http://www.powerspout.com/testimonials/2 ("Frank")

Bob, thanks for your comments. I am not only a web dev, but I also have taken Michael's courses on renewable energy, and witnessed first hand his integrity and honest dealings for the last 7 years. He did not ask me to defend his reputation in this forum, I just happen to find unjustified negative comments on this forum, and took it upon myself to ensure a balanced discussion.

However, some of you will be happy to learn that I will no longer trouble your forum with my comments, as members like Bryan1, who use abusive humor to make their weak logical points are a waste of time and energy. I don't have sex with sheep. I am from the USA, have lived here for 5 years, and in all that time, I have never seen nor heard of anyone having sex with sheep. It's too bad that his comments are viewed right inline with the rest of you, but that is the power and pain of the internet.

Bryan1, It is very easy to make the claims that you make about replacing EcoInnovation products, where is their testimony? If you visit the EcoInnovation website you can read hundreds of positive testimonials from real clients.

Also, if I had read any constructive criticism on the content of the site, I would most certainly have implemented it or at least brought it to the attention of my client. Feel free to issue an FAQ on the website if you have a question about where something is or why it is not done better.

Best of luck in all of your future endeavors in renewable energy. It is too important a topic for everyone to get bogged down in petty squabbles, so I will participate where the goal is improvement, not harassment.

Edited by Matt Sagen on 06 August 2010 at 9:14am
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Posted: 06 August 2010 at 12:03pm | IP Logged Quote Robb

Re the powerspout website: I'd loose the flash videos on the home page. People who want renawables may not to be on high bandwidth connections . If it loads on a 33k connection in under 20 seconds you may sell them if not they will go elsewhere or close their browser and walk away. How many downloads have you had on the 20 meg poster? I'd put that in a dealer resources area.
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Posted: 06 August 2010 at 2:37pm | IP Logged Quote Downwind

I fully agree with Robb, if a site takes time in loading crap i dont want/need to see in the first visit, im gone!!!

Even though i have reasonable speed i still dislike the flash videos on front pages.

Its fine to have them as a option to select but not as a forced download.

Then again you seem closed to what your web site construction is like and feel you know best of what the rest of us think.........first mistake.

As for sex with sheep....well that shows you are not a Kiwi, it has been a form of banter between Kiwi's and Aussies since the dawn of time.

It dates back to a statement of there being 2 men to every female in New Zealand, and more sheep then humans on the island.
This set up the banter of kiwi men having sex with sheep.
There is many jokes about this.

Like why do Kiwi's wear rubber boots,...so they can put the back legs of the sheep in the boots so they cant get away.

Why do Kiwi's like cliff faces,..... because the sheep push back.

What do Kiwi's call their favorite girlfriend.....Bah,bah,bah,bra.


Sometimes it just works
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Posted: 06 August 2010 at 2:43pm | IP Logged Quote kingull


It began with my question of what flow rates give me what power.
Could not ever get an answer on that question.

I studied the ECO site and requested pricing on the HE version.

The responses I got was to go to Powerspout site and select GE version.
I replied that I was not interested in a different product.
Then ECO replied that it was their site.
The name "Powerspout" used to hide their association for some odd reason.

ECO asked me to fill in a site detail and select the GE version.
I attempted to get some guidelines on what to expect.
Example: What flow rates and head give what watts etc.
The reply was fill in a site detail.

You begin to see why so many emails.
No answers but more questions.

I said I dont like the "GE" 380 Volt DC and prefer the "HE" 3 phase version.
(I have seen some nasty accidents with DC in old Sydney Town)
I pointed this out but they insisted on the GE version.

At this stage, they apparently did not have their advanced calculator operating and or I did not know it existed.
The whole thing could have been in one email as their Advanced calculator is excellent.
(The problem is that M Lawley thinks we cant do our own calculations).

So in the end, I ordered the GE 380 volt DC version.
I had to state a flow rate and head.
I used an alternative dam as they can not match my high head rates.
My preferred source is around 300PSI static head or higher.
I would limit it to PN16 pipe ratings (235 PSI).

I received a nicely packed unit in bits.
No documentation on how to assemble it but complete with iron filings in the rotor magnets.
A nice set of tools and spares and spare nozzles.

I assembled the unit then spun it with my finger.
It braked hard magnetically within half of one RPM.
I left it for about two weeks then tried it on a low 10 PSI head.
It Just stalled.
I Tested it with a drill that nearly stalled before it broke the magnetic clamp.

Then I sent my first email after I paid for the unit detaling my tests.
They replied: " Just turn it on"
They could not give me torque speed clamp details.
They dont know.
Some of their load tests indicate above eight foot pounds were probable.

Because I queried this I was told that I had used my one hour`s technical support.
And some thirty emails. Was only two emails after I paid for the unit.
I stated that I found it hard to believe that it took one hour to answer my one email.
I refer to asking why does this clamp hang on?

My test with the drill showed an AVO volt meter reading of 10 Volts DC with the clamp on.
Their tech manual states that it comes on at or about 380 Volts DC.
I still have no information on why this clamp comes on at low volts.

The bottom line is the unit breaks the clamp barrier on the designed flow\head.
That is, 1 litre a second at 100 PSI.
Any less pressure and the unit stalls.
Eco have stated that a lower fluxed stator would suit lower flow rates.

Their manual states that units are supplied star delta to accomodate site changes.
In other words, enables different outputs.
My unit is straight three leads so I am stuck with one single flow head rating.

I may go ahead with a high head unit I tested.
It was suggested by a writer on this posting.
The DC PM motor will run up to speed with no load on the drive.
At around 2500 RPM, it will deliver 100 volts and 10 AMPS DC.
It behaves as one would expect.
Load only comes on as the resistor is lowered in value.
No magnetic clamp to overcome.
Also, I can go to 230 PSI with the stainless Turgo wheel.
The ECO unit is limited to 100 PSI.

My site now has four sources commoned into one line.
Two will be used together (In tandem).
The high PSI line is broken by a head tank (From a spring).
Pressure from the H\Tank at the Powerspout position is 120 PSI.

(The spring is at the top of Mount Nullum).
The second source is a dam at 100PSI static.
Both lines are around 300 metres long.
They tee at the Powerspout.
With both feeds teed, the pressure sits on 100PSI
This causes water to flow from the spring to the dam.

The spring fed line is at 120 PSI (from the head tank).
With the Powerspout turned off the pressure sits on 100 PSI at the Powerspout.
But the water from the spring feeds back up to the dam.
With the Powerspout turned on the pressure sits on 99 PSI.
Both sources then feed the "Powerspout" simultaneously.
The flow resistance is thus shared from both sources.

The second problem was that ECO specified SMB 1100 GTI.
SMA state their warranty is void on a hydro application.
This was my second email after I paid for the ECO GE unit.
ECO state that SMA dont know what they are talking about.

Cheers to all. Frank.

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