Home  |  Contents 
Other Stuff
  Forum Index : Other Stuff         Section
Subject Topic: home brew hydrogen generator Post ReplyPost New Topic
Page of 8 Next >>
Author
Message << Prev Topic | Next Topic >>
CNC Pro
Newbie
Newbie


Joined: 30 January 2008
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3
Posted: 30 January 2008 at 7:48pm | IP Logged Quote CNC Pro

Hello! And Greetings!
As a new member to this forum, I thought I’d pose a question to the vast wealth of brainpower I’ve seemed to stumble across here. So please bear with me.

I’m located in Upstate New York, clinging to my hill top shop by my toenails, as 50 mph winds greet me on this fine (20 degrees Fahrenheit) January morning. And as the neighbors garbage cans circulate by, I find myself wondering if this energy could be tapped into.

It’s well documented in the pages of this web-site the benefits of generating electricity from home-built wind turbines. And I’m reminded of a little “experiment” my brother and I used to play with as kids, creating hydrogen gas from a simple DC power supply and salt water. Mighty fine pyrotechnics and singed eyebrows were had by all!

My question is:
Has anyone attempted to build a home brew hydrogen generator using the “free” DC power of these turbines?

I’ve seen hydrogen powered vehicle conversions, and one of the main reasons for these not being more of a mainstream fuel source, is the lack of an infrastructure such as refueling stations etc.

I’m not knocking electric vehicles, I was thinking that an alternative fuel for the millions of internal combustion vehicles already on the road, might be more accepted, as opposed to having to buy a new electric or converting gasoline to electric vehicles.
Also, most of the homes in this area are already heated with natural gas, could hydrogen be used as an alternative heating fuel?

Anyway, you have a nice site here, I enjoy reading the many accomplishments by so many ingenious people.
Thank you!


Edited by CNC Pro on 30 January 2008 at 7:50pm



Back to Top View CNC Pro's Profile Search for other posts by CNC Pro
 
Tinker
Guru
Guru
Avatar

Joined: 07 November 2007
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 874
Posted: 31 January 2008 at 12:44am | IP Logged Quote Tinker

Hydrogen gas? Hmmmm...

While it is relatively easy to generate said gas with electricity, have you considered how to store it yet?

Perhaps in a gas tight bag, aka zeppelin? This might make your neighbours and the county sheriff mighty nervous with its great potential of *boooom*

If you try to compress it, you may find that takes more power than you bargained for.
For example, my city (Perth, Western Australia) had imported a few clean green hydrogen powered buses. Unfortunately, the hydrogen required to run the things was made with local coal fired power station power - not so clean & green any more. Also, the total power costs required to get the hydrogen into the pressurised containers far outweighed the costs running the buses with conventional fuel (diesel).
So, these buses are now moth balled

In the long run I think its more enconomical to store wind gnerated electricity in batteries rather than do further conversions into an other medium.
Klaus

__________________
Klaus
Back to Top View Tinker's Profile Search for other posts by Tinker
 
Gill
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: 11 November 2006
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 669
Posted: 31 January 2008 at 9:42pm | IP Logged Quote Gill

G'day CNC Pro,
Welcome to the forum

I have certainly given it some thought. I am inclined to using the excess power generated in my wet season to create the hydrogen, store it until needed, then feed it into a fuel cell to generate electricity. Unlike battery storage, Hydrogen will not deteriorate over time. It might leak out a little......

Making the Hydrogen Generator is simple enough, no problems there, but as Tinker suggests, storage is a big problem.
The other problem, though just a little one, is the hundred thousand or so dollars needed to buy a fuel cell of suitable size.
Once I get the electricity back there's no problem feeding it to my batteries for use.

I've got the beginning and end sussed, it's just the middle I have trouble with.

You've got some great ideas there. Let me know if you come up with some sure fire solutions I can use.

__________________
was working fine... til the smoke got out.
Cheers Gill _Cairns, FNQ
Back to Top View Gill's Profile Search for other posts by Gill
 
Trev
Guru
Guru
Avatar

Joined: 15 July 2006
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 368
Posted: 23 February 2008 at 11:36pm | IP Logged Quote Trev

G'day CNC Pro, Gill and others.

I have a friend who had made a device to split the hydrogen and oxygen from water and ran his car on it. He did not have any storage facility. He used it as he made it.

He no longer uses it, in fact sold it for a good price. The reason for selling was that it took a considerable amount of electricity to split the water. The Hydrogen enery was less than the electrical energy that was put in. So in effect, the alternator could not produce enough electricity to keep the whole thing going. Poor efficiency.

The reality is for vehicles, use the energy, whatever it be, in in most natural way possible. Every step in the conversion of energy, there are losses.

In my opinion, hydrogen, ethanol, biodeisel will never replace fossil fuel. Electricity does have a chance.

For a back up storage of excess, is more gain. You can only use so much electricity, and storage for times when you don't have any electricity is good.

For heating, would it not be sufficient to use electric heating.

Good luck in your research and development, you never know, it could make you rich.


__________________
Trev @ http://www.thebackshed.com/basiclynatural/
Back to Top View Trev's Profile Search for other posts by Trev Visit Trev's Homepage
 
Gill
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: 11 November 2006
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 669
Posted: 24 February 2008 at 1:55pm | IP Logged Quote Gill

Yes, One of our local fisherman looking at soaring fuel prices wanted to use excess generating capacity to make hydrogen then feed it into the motors.
Some people just can't be told.

At least your bloke got good $ when he woke up. Hope it was to someone using the technology positively.

I see the 'generate on demand' methods as limited in application though safer, whilst the 'generate and store' methods have far greater useful applications, but on safety I think history has already set the precedence there.

Still it can be done, and if we are clever enough to use nuclear, I don't see a massive hydrogen fire/explosion to be any worse than a nuclear explosion/meltdown.
If all the petrol was gone tomorrow, I can't envisage electric or nuclear jumbo's, but hydrogen or other gas, maybe.

What do the Yanks say? "It aint ova til the fat lady sings."

__________________
was working fine... til the smoke got out.
Cheers Gill _Cairns, FNQ
Back to Top View Gill's Profile Search for other posts by Gill
 
Trev
Guru
Guru
Avatar

Joined: 15 July 2006
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 368
Posted: 25 February 2008 at 7:06am | IP Logged Quote Trev

Hey Gill,
The experience of my freind was, to get the hydrogen gas though, you use more kw of electrical energy than the hydrogen kw of energy is worth.

As I said, every time you convert from one energy to another, you lose some. This is eactly the same for inverters, changing from battery dc to 240 or whatever v ac.

If that fisherman wanted, he could set up solar and wind gens on his boat and get around with electric motors!

Wind sails are more efficient, because the enrgy is not converted to another form of energy, but as you mention, can't be stored for when there is none.

A fire/explosion of hydrogen is still far safer than the nuclear meltdown. At least there is no radiation.


__________________
Trev @ http://www.thebackshed.com/basiclynatural/
Back to Top View Trev's Profile Search for other posts by Trev Visit Trev's Homepage
 
martinjsto
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: 09 October 2007
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 149
Posted: 25 February 2008 at 10:49am | IP Logged Quote martinjsto

hi guys,
i have made a hydrogen generator also, used a system that generated on demand and fed directly into the air intake.
i recieved aproximatly 13% increase in fuel economy in my diesel pajero over a trip from perth to collie about 280km. my unit drawed 20amps, an amount the alternator could handle without loosing charge to batteries during the day at night it is a diferent story, i have a 70amp alternator in my vehicle.
it is possible, but i made the unit from pvc should of used a stainless cannister, the water in the unit got quite hot and i found the pvc warped. the unit was kept under controle using a washing machine water level switch, which swithced off the power via a relay when the preasure inside the hydrogen unit rose too high. overunity wont happen but as a booster there definatly is potential, the ideat of using a f&p for the power has its faults, driving off tailshaft or wheels only produces loading of drivetrain therefor no gain to efficiency, using a small vawt like the a/c in some vehicles merit more investigation.
and yes the 20amps on the alternator also loads motor but i did get better ecconomy.
as the hydrogen is used as it is made storage isnt an issue and i advise using flashback arrestors or a bubbler befor the intake.
there are some people that are getting realy good production using pwm and only 2 to 5 amps.
i dont think you will ever run a vehicle purely off hydrogen but as a booster there is definate potential.
martin


__________________
free power for all
McAlinden WA
Back to Top View martinjsto's Profile Search for other posts by martinjsto
 
CNC Pro
Newbie
Newbie


Joined: 30 January 2008
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3
Posted: 25 February 2008 at 8:17pm | IP Logged Quote CNC Pro

It’s too bad that Perth gave up on their hydrogen buses, the technology is being pursued in my area with hydrogen-powered buses and local delivery trucks seeing daily use. Albeit, their numbers a still fairly small.

As the owner of a CNC Job shop, my shop produces components for a division of Daimler/Chrysler, which specializes in hydrogen powered buses. Business has been steady (with interest coming from state and local municipalities searching for alternative fueled vehicles).

The diversity of projects illustrated on this site is a testament to the thinking that “there is more than one way to skin a cat”, and that future energy requirements are going to have to come from multiple sources.
I was simply posing the question of hydrogen generation as another option.
Martinjsto’s experiment does demonstrate the potential, and with some refinement, it makes one wonder what possibilities could be achieved.

Martin, can you tell me what you used for electrodes in your Pajero’s system?
Back to Top View CNC Pro's Profile Search for other posts by CNC Pro
 
Gill
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: 11 November 2006
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 669
Posted: 25 February 2008 at 8:42pm | IP Logged Quote Gill

Yes Martin, spill the beans.

I appreciate your relating how heat was a problem with the PVC generator you made. I had mentally made a unit of PVC also. Won't do it now. Thanks.

I guess I was only thinking of the current breaking down the H2O molecule and did not consider there would be heat generated also. I was more considering an associated corrosion problem. still your idea of stainless covers that as well.

You say you got a 13% increase in fuel economy. I reckon this would be more the effect of a higher octane fuel mix rather than the basic 'kw in v kw out' of Trev's post?

__________________
was working fine... til the smoke got out.
Cheers Gill _Cairns, FNQ
Back to Top View Gill's Profile Search for other posts by Gill
 
martinjsto
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: 09 October 2007
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 149
Posted: 26 February 2008 at 2:30am | IP Logged Quote martinjsto

my last running unit used 15 off 1.2mm stainless steel plate about 5 inches by 3 inches set in a negative positive neg pos etc arangement about 2mm apart, you can use an electrolite but dont use salt water as it produces sodium cloride gass(i think thats the name of it) very poisenouse.
use baking soda or caustic soda i prefer the first. measure the hho produced by bubbling into a upside down plastic bottle submergen in a bucket of water and measure the displacement for liters per minute.
i will try to get some pics of unit set up in test enviroment soon if you would like to see it, there is other arangements people use including neutral plates.
the gas produce is actualy a combination of oxygen and hydrogen HHO which burns very rapidly when drawn into the inlet manifold from normal vacume. the hydrogen comes off the negative plates the oxygen from the positive so starting and finnishing on negative plates gives more hydrogen than oxygen.
also 2 inlets are used on petrol motors, one above carby or butterfly valve and one bellow. becouse more acceleration means less vacume in manifold and more above inlet, and vis a versa. others use throttle controle valves similar to preasure valves in hot water systems.
i think your right gill, the increase in ecconomy is probably becouse it burns the fuel a lot more efficiently than streight diesel. hydrogen also ignights almost immediatly as against most liquid fuels, therefor the timing should be adjusted in petrol motors to take advantage of the hydrogen fuel. in my injected diesel ignition dosnt take place untill a certain compression is reached so all the fuel ignites at the same time, thereticaly giving a more powerful power stroke.
as for potential damage to motors i dunno my diesel burns less smoke and has more cleaner oil than befor mod and the fuel figures are quite accurate as i get aconsistant km per tank of fuel for yrs now, and thats on my bodgy put together rought as guts unit i made. it is currently out of the vehicle whilst i am making a new design, multiple cells with smaller plate in stainless or quality accrilic container which seem to work well also.
jees i can run on lol

martin



__________________
free power for all
McAlinden WA
Back to Top View martinjsto's Profile Search for other posts by martinjsto
 
CNC Pro
Newbie
Newbie


Joined: 30 January 2008
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3
Posted: 26 February 2008 at 6:04am | IP Logged Quote CNC Pro

Hey Martin,
I would be very interested to see photos of your design(s).
Do you have any data as far as consumption of plates, “water/soda mix”, etc.?
Have you built a petrol version? Photos?

Tim
Back to Top View CNC Pro's Profile Search for other posts by CNC Pro
 
Jon Bennett
Newbie
Newbie


Joined: 01 November 2007
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 27
Posted: 26 February 2008 at 1:15pm | IP Logged Quote Jon Bennett

Nearly all of the make and use type systems make Brown's gas which is a mixture of Hydrgogen and oxygen.
Storing Brown's gas is a risky deal, if you want to store the hydrogen for some time it would be best to make a setup that generates two streams being pure hydrogen and pure oxygen IMHO.
Efficiency of producing hydrogen and converting back into electricity is currentlyu less than battery efficiency, storing large volumes which is both generated and used at low rates may make it more atractive I guess.

Link below to a site showing basic concept
Experimental size Hydrogen generator

regards
jon
Back to Top View Jon Bennett's Profile Search for other posts by Jon Bennett
 


Page of 8 Next >>
In the news...
 
Post ReplyPost New Topic
Printable version Printable version
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

Powered by Web Wiz Forums version 7.8
Copyright ©2001-2004 Web Wiz Guide

This page was generated in 0.1250 seconds.
Privacy Policy     Process times : 0, 0.02, 0, 0.1