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Forum Index : Solar : Overclocked Inverter Yeild.

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Davo99
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Joined: 03/06/2019
Location: Australia
Posts: 727
Posted: 10:48am 06 Dec 2020
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Was talking on another thread about the max daily yeild from an inverter.
I have been playing round a bit with my setup and sold one of my inverters so piled a load of panels on the 5 Kw inverter which I believe is presently attached to I think about 12 Kw or so of Panels.

The arrays, 4 of them,  are quite Mixed, 280V to 420v.  I have 2 Trackers on the inverter but I have still got a fair variation of voltage on each one.
I previously got an 8 x generation being a max of 42 KWh but today I got a new high of 48 KWH.

There is a north array of 6.2 KW and the rest are all west facing. I noticed at a bit after 7:30 Pm tonight I was still making 2.6Kw which I thought was pretty good.
The shed system which 6.7 kw all facing north on a 3.6 Kw Inverter did 26 Kwh which is a bit over 7 X so Not bad either.

I think those panels aren't very good. I never see that inverter max out. It gets Close but never full tilt. I have checked everything a number of times but some of the panels are pretty discoloured so I think they may be a bit on the iffy side. When I put the new ones up on the house, I'll take those ones down and put the 250W  house ones on there and see how that goes. It's prime winter north facing real estate up there and although I'm limited how much power I can push back with the crappy wiring, I want to make the most of it when I need it.  

The 3rd array on the 4 KW inverter did 17 Kwh but I think that one only has about 3.2 Kw of panels on it atm.

91 Kwh for the day isn't bad but I think it was a pretty perfect day. Also with the summer solistace about a fortnight away it is also peak solar time.
I have had the systems shut down for about the last 6 weeks as I ran away with production in september and it's only now that the days are warming up and we are using the AC that we are starting to burn any meaningful power.

it would be so great if that power could be stored or at least get a credit for it through winter. I have such an overkill system just to try and get through winter with out going bankrupt with heating and in summer I literally make more power than I know what to do with. last few weeks I have been using a 90L water heater to boil water to burn off excess power and been using the boiling water to kill weeds with.

I would like to Crack a 10X generation rate on an inverter and set up an east array to give me that bit extra power first thing in the morning. Got way too much to do before Christmas but after I might give it a go just for the heck of it. Might be able to do it with putting on that 3KW west array but the inverter is maxed out most of the day now so I think east orientation over capacity would be the better option.

I am really sold on having fans on the inverters. The 5Kw was flat out all day and it was well over 30o here today and the inverter never got more than a bit warmer than ambient.  The fan was howling , I probably could put a voltage regulator on it just to keep the thing a bit quieter but it sure keeps the inverters nice and cool. Being a car radiator fan it blows on all 4 sides of the inverter. Some weeks back I made some ducting out of cardboard to channel all the air down the back over the cooling fins. The front and sides ran noticeably hotter although I couldn't detect any heat in the fins at all. The wash from the fan blows on the second inverter that is underneath and that was running much hotter so I took the ducting off and just let the fan blow everywhere it wants. Seems to be the happy spot anyway.

The fan is an interesting and Audible indication of the solar radiation. I can easily hear the pitch and volume of the thing change which isn't what one always expects. Some days seem really clear and bright and the fan isn't running that hard and a look at the inverters shows they aren't setting any records either. Other days that don't seem so bright have the thing going hard.

My next big solar thing will be to put up the 19Kw of new panels I have and take down all the old ones. Can't see that happening much before about april though.  Too damn hot up on roofs even in winter unless it's overcast.
 
Davo99
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Joined: 03/06/2019
Location: Australia
Posts: 727
Posted: 09:12pm 08 Dec 2020
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Amazing the Difference a bit of Cloud makes.

Very brief passing patches here lasting only minutes but sure knocks the generation off.  I was looking at the inverter doing 5140W and then this little , single cloud came over and it fell to 1620W. Only for about 30 Sec but amazing how one cloud in an otherwise blue sky can make such a Difference.

Been down in the low 80Kwh last couple of days but thats OK.

Have a Meter read hopefully tomorrow so I'm Feathering the generation.  I'm around 14 KWH used for the 1/4 on one meter and around 34 Kwh on the other. I'll Trim them down a bit more today to keep the bill where I want it :0)


I have been reading about a lot of changes either proposed or coming in with solar.
These power co's really are greedy mongerals and never stop trying to change the rules to increase their profits.

The latest Money Grabbing BS is to CHARGE people for exporting solar power as a " Grid access Fee".  Thought everyone already Paid that in " Connection" Charges.

They are also wanting to push everyone to home batteries so their Pipe dream of an unreliable Grid costs them less.  They want to be able to pull power from YOUR battery and put it into the grid. -MIGHT- be OK if they paid you a fair amount but Typically, They want to fleece their customers for the power they sell them and pay a Pittance for the power they buy.

They are also Pushing ahead with the Idea in SA ( and will probably spread like the China Flu pox) that all new solar installs can be remotely switched on and off.  Not  just the backfeed to the grid but to your home as well forcing people to buy power and up the power co's Revenue.

The other thing they are wanting to bring in " To protect the grid"  ( isn't that a convenient and well worn excuse? ) is to be able to switch off your Aircon.
Upgrading the networks to service their customers is too expensive for them. Much better make the customer pay one way or the other.

So much big brother control all to protect their profits and prevent them having to invest in upgrading the networks to where they should be in this day and age and coping with the demand.

They BS their customers with talk of being green and environmental while screwing them over at every opportunity and doing everything they can to thwart the very goal they preach. With the corruption and fraud we have seen in the world recently,. Who knows what they will be talking about this time next year?  The world has gone mad with corporate greed and profiteering and no telling what sort of schemes they will come up with to extract every cent they can out of people.


They are definitely pushing people to batteries as they admit they want to do but no doubt when they achieve that, they will be whinging and trying to charge people for NOT using their Corrupt and over priced power.

I was going to Upgrade the power cable to the shed with 6mm for the solar then Figured I didn't need. it.  I think I'll look at upgrading it to 10mm now for the Forklift battery I can see in the sooner future than what I thought.
 
noneyabussiness
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Joined: 31/07/2017
Location: Australia
Posts: 330
Posted: 09:26am 09 Dec 2020
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Its funny that if you got half a brain,  its obvious they are diddling the average customer...yet so many brain dead people eat this crap up, like the whole " only set your aircon to x temp " because it can overload the system ( big one up here ), all that tells me is a place that gets stinking hot doesn't have the infrastructure to support the load, so dads and mums that are paying the premium price ( only 1 company up here, no choice/competition ) for power have to be uncomfortable because they won't spend some of the millions they make to upgrade the system to match the loads.. yet have the gout to continue to build new estates ( hundreds of homes per one) and never spend it where its needed... just makes me so angry that this, our lucky country, is turning into a cash cow for corporate greed.
I think it works !!
 
Revlac

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Joined: 31/12/2016
Location: Australia
Posts: 429
Posted: 10:46am 09 Dec 2020
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Several years ago they upgraded the lines here, 3 different lines joined up at the corner, new and more poles put in, by this time I was already off grid.
The upgrade had been planned for years and according one of there spokesperson (on TV at the time) all of the upgrades were paid for within there budget, the excuse to charge more for upgrades is just that ...an excuse.
Well that was years ago.


Now a friend of mine years ago had a half decent workshop with a mill and 2 big lathes one was a Herbert No.8, had a 2 speed motor I think it was 10 or 15hp can't remember, anyway he could run that when he got home from work (same machine at work) he did a few jobs for others and some work related stuff as well, he had no problem running the lathe at any time, no neighbours close enough to complain about the noise.
Since then there was a new estate being built down the road and the new residence started to complain about the lights flickering a little, of course he was the one they targeted for this, after more of the estate was populated things were getting worse.
Instead of the power company upgrading lines and associated transformers they imposed a time limit on when he could use his lathe.
Eventually he couldn't use his lathe anymore, ended up selling and moving out.

Another friend disconnected his hot water system to put in solar hot water (only 1 company there as well).....well it wasn't long after he got visit from an inspector to see why he wasn't showing enough power usage, he showed him the solar system and the issue was resolved, however they do make a note of the reason why and it is recorded.
   
Davo,  with your system, if you have to get a set of batteries and inverter for your system, I think it would be a shame to have to rework everything you have done.
What I have been thinking is, if that all of your system be used as it is, perhaps AC coupled inverter and maybe a high voltage battery as well.
Just a thought, This should have a new topic on its own....Be interesting to see what is the best direction to go.
Cheers Aaron
Off The Grid
 
Davo99
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Joined: 03/06/2019
Location: Australia
Posts: 727
Posted: 01:37pm 09 Dec 2020
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  noneyabussiness said  

yet so many brain dead people eat this crap up, like the whole " only set your aircon to x temp " because it can overload the system ( big one up here ), all that tells me is a place that gets stinking hot doesn't have the infrastructure to support the load, so dads and mums that are paying the premium price

yet have the gout to continue to build new estates ( hundreds of homes per one) and never spend it where its needed... just makes me so angry that this, our lucky country, is turning into a cash cow for corporate greed.


WOW, Talk about incredible Irony! You are absolutely 110% spot on for my area anyway.

I literally just Finished reading a Report before coming here now from Transgrid about the power supply in my local area.  I was very interested to see that they say the the network is under capacity in my area and has significant shortfall in summer. Never seen an outage here in the 3 Summers since we moved in but they admit to there being a " significant" one at more than their threshold occasions and mention the problems of having to divert power from other feeders.  They also made mention of Gubbermint plans to release land for 35,000 new residences. That would be within a few KM of the main depot location.

  Quote  The NSW Government has announced the potential for 35,000 residential lots to be developed in the Wilton New Town and the Menangle Park/Mt Gilead areas as part of the Greater Macarthur Land Release Area. This will require revision of the 66kV supply strategy for the area. Transgrid’s Macarthur Substation does not have the capacity to service the long term needs of the area and joint planning is required as part of the revision of the supply strategy.


I know this is in the planning right now. I visited a mate this morning at his property of 33 Acres. The developers were talking to him last week and upped their offer to the $1.5M an acre he wants.  They want to pay it off in 3 instalments, each 2 years apart to which he has refused as I would. The minute they come to the party he is out of there so could be any time. They have been talking to him for a couple of years now and it's clear they are getting more keen to get their hands on the place. Not bad being able to retire at 43 yo with about $50m not that mate would. He'd just buy a Bigger business.

The way they build these pocket handkerchief future slum estates now, many around here being sub 300SqM, They would probably get a sizeable chunk of those 33K homes on his land alone.

The great Irony is, mate has wanted to up his power supply to cater to his business on the property for years and they have repeatedly denied him even though there was a new substation put right next door when they built the new area high school across the road a few years back. They wanted to buy a corner of his land to locate it and he made it conditional that they up his supply and they refused so he told them to go jump. They bought the neighbours corner... which the neighbour has come to regret with all the easements etc that came with it.

The Transgrid report goes on to basically say that the Gubbermint will have to Chip in ( majorly Finance) this private enterprise infrastructure of the new supply point which they will profit from forever in effect.

I also saw when looking at the local airport future plan they are encouraging the implementation of a Solar farm at one end of the airport which is clear of the approach/ Takeoff paths off to the side where the land is wide due to bordering with the river.  I surmise whomever builds that will expect the Gubbermint to pay for it so they can take the profits.... and then whinge the local network is " Overloaded" with solar and want to limit residential installs and have the ability to turn off inverters.

I laughed as soon as I read this even before looking at their map. I know the airport layout, the direction of the sun and the orientation of the main Runways.  They would be Creating a death ray of glare off the panels for the aircraft approaching ( mainly) or departing depending on the time of year and prevailing wind direction. The majority of the time the glare would be right as the aircraft entered their turn for short Finals, a critical time to say the least or along the flight path at some point depending on time of year and day, and then having been blinded, they would be trying to touch down less than 30 sec later. Even doing Circuits with the way the flight paths are, they would be copping it as the circuit altitude is only 1000Ft.
The Commercial flight path behind and well above the local light traffic at about 3000M would also get a good flash but I suspect they would be far enough away about 6 Km, to be able to use it more as a landmark. Not that they would need one having ILS and computer navigation.  

 I only had to read this proposal and I saw the immediate problem and danger and i'm just an unqualified idiot. How in the hell can these people in high paid management positions not see the problem with it straight off and why are they even suggesting such a moronic idea?
Probably too busy busting a gut to Virtue signal and be socially acceptable to think through the absolute stupidity of the idea.  

Maybe I should try and get on some panel and encourage and support the idea?  Without doubt there would be a Whole lot of less than 1 year old panels ( might be up only a week if they plan it right for me and bad for them) going cheap when they discovered the problem and had to pull it all down faster than they put it all up.
They talk about restrictions on lighting of buildings and signage around the area so as not to interfere with nighttime operations ( minimal as they are thankfully) but then talk about constructing an on-site death ray of glare from a solar farm during the day when aircraft movements are 90 odd percent of the total airport traffic.

Perhaps someone should  point out to these corporate buffoons that the sun is several million times brighter than ANY architectural or Signage Lighting and the concentrated glare from glass surfaces is probably brighter still.
Are the people proposing this on Drugs or should they be and have slipped through the cracks of the mental health care system?

Makes My fking Blood boil at the way this Corporate profiteering BS is not only allowed but virtually encouraged.  We the public are fools and being taken for one hell of a Ride. Of course we will also have al load of environmental  Horse sh*t rammed down our throats at the same time about reducing Co2 and saving the planet and other Virtue signalling crap to hide their corporate bastardry.

I'm all for doing the right thing by the environment but I'm violently opposed to being treated like a moron and blatantly lied to. They want to push the environmental line, Terrific. Actually stick by that and allow people to have solar and get a decent return for supporting the grid not talk about charging them to feed back power they profit ( obscenely) from . You want to be corporate bastards, that's fine too, just don't insult the feeble intelligence I have with crap so transparent it's offensive to even a twit like me.

I also read in the airport Development plan the rejection of a proposed wind farm in the area due to the impediment on aircraft safety. Fortunately the radius around the airport for these restrictions is quite broad ( Over 10 Km  which surprises me) and means there won't be any of these detrimental monstrosity's anywhere near me that I have to worry about.

You really could not have been any more accurate with what you said, maybe you live around here and read all this before I did?  :0)
 
Davo99
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Joined: 03/06/2019
Location: Australia
Posts: 727
Posted: 02:46pm 09 Dec 2020
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  Revlac said  

the excuse to charge more for upgrades is just that ...an excuse.
Well that was years ago.


I have read of this so many times and spoken to a good amount of people personaly that have had quotes in the 30K up range to have power put on. The last one was my Cousin 3 weeks ago that is  just finishing his new home set back 200M from the road and got a quote of $84K even though the power runs along the road. They said they would have to do upgrades which everyone in the road would be connected to but wanted to hit him up for the lot. He's getting an off grid system installed for a lot less than that!


  Quote  
Instead of the power company upgrading lines and associated transformers they imposed a time limit on when he could use his lathe.
Eventually he couldn't use his lathe anymore, ended up selling and moving out.


Similar to a Spary Friend of Mine. Bought a place, has done major upgrades including building a HUGE workshop for his business and wired everything to handle the demands of the local small town.  Power co refused to give him the power he wanted and was more than equipped for unless he paid for a transformer upgrade that dervices the entire street.

He got together with some Neighbours, brought in some load banks, hit the power all at once and basically blew the snot out of the fuses and the transformer in minutes.
Power co came along and had to install a New transformer They were without power for 2 days but allowed for that) and now they can get the upgrades they wanted.  

  Quote  Another friend disconnected his hot water system to put in solar hot water (only 1 company there as well).....well it wasn't long after he got visit from an inspector to see why he wasn't showing enough power usage, he showed him the solar system and the issue was resolved, however they do make a note of the reason why and it is recorded.


I have been wondering about this. My last 6 Bills show we use the same power as a Half person household. :0)  Haven't had any problems... Yet.
Meter reader came today instead of tomorrow. Most annoying.  I still had $10 worth of power clocked up on one phase and about $15 worth on the other. been way over for months but also been away a bit so turned everything off so as not to overshoot again as I wanted an actual reading this time. I was going to take the meters down to about 2 Kw above what the last reading was.

Not to worry.  Saw the guy come when the Dog went nuts so as soon as he was out of sight, all the inverters were kicked in and I was making 13Kw of power again.  Already about 30 Kw in credit to what the reading was. :0)

The next read should be March so I might have another actual read then lock the box and get an estimate read to carry through winter and make up any shortfall hopefully by September. I think that will be OK if I get the new panels up. I believe I can break even though the middle of winter now. -IF- I set up and use the spa as a thermal storage and fire that with the Oil burner and use that at least in part for the main heating, I should laugh it in.  

The last read had one phase with zero useage ( by accident) and never heard a thing.
I think they are too busy just trying to keep people happy here and deal with complaints to have the time or staff to investigate anything like low useage.
I also think the usage in the street let alone the area would be so all over the place they wouldn't worry about low usage. Everything from families with 4 Teenage kids in the street to retirees that literally spend 4-6 Months away in their caravan and pay little more than access charges. Then you have BIL up the road that has a $2K quarterly  bill on average. I know the couple nest door regularly have $1200-1500 bills and there is just the 2 of them and he works away ( Building sub stations of all things) far more than he is home.  Don't know what she does in there but it sure must burn some power.

We are always in Credit on our bill as we have an automatic weekly payment that more than covers what little we use and I think that also keeps them happy.
The last bill in total with access charges of well over a Dollar per day worked out costing us a grand total of $2.16 a day. Pretty happy with that given I can draw down a pretty obscene amount of power with what we can run here and then " Pay it off" if not already in front with the solar on the spinny meters. This winter we just broke even so I'm pretty confident the new additions will keep up or if I take some of the heating load off we'll do it easily.


   
  Quote  Davo,  with your system, if you have to get a set of batteries and inverter for your system, I think it would be a shame to have to rework everything you have done.
What I have been thinking is, if that all of your system be used as it is, perhaps AC coupled inverter and maybe a high voltage battery as well.
Just a thought, This should have a new topic on its own....Be interesting to see what is the best direction to go.


I have thought of this. I have 19Kw of new panels to put up which will be pretty much a complete rework of all my systems anyway bar one I put up about 6 Months ago.
I'll take everything off the house and use some of those panels to replace the ones on the shed I'm not happy with.

I was trying to think if I could double wire them in a way to give me low voltage for battery charging and the high voltage for Grid tie. I found there are hybrid inverters which will take up to 500V DC input which is handy.  My newest string is 420V OC so as long as I don't go over that, I could use one of these. Might mean some extra strings as some of these new panels I have are 50V so I'd have to keep them down to a run of 8 which won't be bad for my roof layout.

500V inverter

I'm itching to get the new panels up, Sick of piles of them leaning up against the shed looking untidy. I can't do them on my own, I need my daughter to help me and she is never home. Mrs can't doing anything after a recent operation so it's a Bit Frustrating.
 
Davo99
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Posts: 727
Posted: 03:23pm 09 Dec 2020
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  noneyabussiness said  Its funny that if you got half a brain,  its obvious they are diddling the average customer...

all that tells me is a place that gets stinking hot doesn't have the infrastructure to support the load, so dads and mums that are paying the premium price ( only 1 company up here, no choice/competition ) for power have to be uncomfortable because they won't spend some of the millions they make to upgrade the system to match the loads..


I just saw a shortened Version of this Ad which nearly made hurl with their sickly sweet BS about private people "supporting the grid when under pressure to ensure a stable and more affordable supply of electricity for your Community".

Fark me! talk about a load of Bullship! As you say, conning people in to pay millions for the infrastructure of the power companies costs of doing business.

Watch how this pans out... They will con enough people into this so demand falls and then they will be wanting to ramp power prices further through the roof to make up for their loss of Revenue and penalise people whom don't use enough power or go off grid.

Does anyone remember the REAL excuse solar was encouraged in this country in this country in the first place?
It was because the grid was in such a state on inadequacy from lack of maintenance and upgrading of infrastructure, they knew there was no way they could possibly catch up regardless of the massive cost. They introduced solar with the generous FITS in order to buy  time and reduce the load on the grid so the whole thing wouldn't crash in a smoking heap.

This is the REAL reason. I know this for a fact because my mates father took over as CEO of a regional power company at the time and this was the strategy the gubbermint and the power cos fell back on.  They got too much of what they wanted and solar has way over shot what they imagined and now they bitch about having too much power although as can be seen from what I found, they still have shortfalls in some places but want to do all they can to limit and reject domestic input which they feel they don't make enough from.

I don't know what aggravates me more and makes me sick and furious at the same time, The Ads or the knowledge there are enough candy arsed, brainless do gooders out there that will fall for this deceptive crap.

If AGL Can show me a real world scenario where this actually saves anyone money, I'll buy 2.

Just looking at the marketing crap on their page and the absence of any numbers on what you will pay for power and get back tell one what  crock this is.
Read the hype and look at the fine print where they will charge you 26% interest over the 60 Months 2% interest and the $1000 off ( Off what they don't say) which you have to pay back if you go with another company within 5 years.

AGL Battery scam

Just that in the lifetime value of the customer no doubt with prices to kill and the amount of defaults they would get to the 26% interest rate would be a money maker on it's own.  Once again the Green environmental Noble cause is bastardised for the sake of Corporate profit.

I think I'll go to bed now and take a couple of tranquillisers before I work myself into any more of a state of disgust over these thieving power cos and their unlimited BS.

I'll have my inverters and forklift battery up and running my off grid system before they come to upset my current setup with a smartarse meter.
 
noneyabussiness
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Posted: 10:48pm 09 Dec 2020
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The price is at the bottom,  15 grand if you pay up front, 16 if you use finance... but i see the bit about 23.99 and 25.99 percentage rates, so you are locked in... honestly don't trust power companies,  up there with politicians ,  car salesman and real estate agents...
I think it works !!
 
Davo99
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Posts: 727
Posted: 02:40am 10 Dec 2020
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  noneyabussiness said  The price is at the bottom,  15 grand if you pay up front, 16 if you use finance...


The old thing, can it save the price of enough power to pay for itself over it's Lifetime?
Not a Hope.

But hey, you can spend your money propping up the grid to ensure the company profits and bonuses to Directors are paid for partially out of your pocket and suckers with the same ignorance.

but i see the bit about 23.99 and 25.99 percentage rates, so you are locked in... honestly don't trust power companies,  up there with politicians ,  car salesman and real estate agents...

Wise advise.

I do wonder where this is all going to end up though. They already whinge about too much solar on the system but still  promote solar farms like they are the be all solution. At the very same time, they are doing all they can to deter residential solar without being too obvious about it and raising the Ire of the greenwashed.

Like the agendas and positions of certain other groups, the end game is not practical or sustainable.  If they do get a substantial number of homes on batteries and reduce their power use from the grid, then their revenue will drop. Even if made up by other users such as those in units and businesses, their revenue will stabilise at best and their business models are pinned on endless growth so that has to come to a point of conflict for their business growth.  

I can see batteries if they do make a reasonable market penetration, being solar all over again. They will be whining about too many people with batteries and not enough consumption from the grid and rather than reduce power prices they will be upping them to maintain their profits. Then we will get the bleeding hearts complaining that the people without batteries are propping up the people who do have them and all that crap  ignoring the $3 BN a year the power cos make in oz.

I think these companies are too short termed Visioned. Most  CEO's and MD's move on every 5 years as part of their personal corporate growth. It's not good for them to be with the same company longer than that as far as their own market value goes.
As such, their only goal is to make the company look as profitable as they can while they are there. If the long term outcome of their management is negative or creates problems, who cares? Someone else will be steering the ship then and it will be their situation to overcome.


It's all about the short term gains and bugger the final game or what their short term strategy sets things up for. batteries may be a short term Money maker but may well prove to kill their average lifetime Value of the customer in the long term.
They are also setting people up to be one step away from off grid and having taken them down that path, it's a good bet a lot of people will go the extra after being fed up with the price rises etc.

The power cos may be OK if battery prices and Tech remain steady, If by some miracle something does give and the  battery cost drops, the power cos may find themselves back to the Solar situation again where people take it up far more than whats good for their Bottom line.

We can only hope.
 
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