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Forum Index : Solar : Deciding if I should build this solar heater

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Davo99
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Posted: 03:43pm 10 Sep 2021
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Easy to see the change of season with the solar output.
Did 69Kwh today.
Multiply that out by the increased efficiency of these tubes and there is some really heat to be made.... When we really don't need it.

Forecast is for 29 Here tomorrow which means it will probably hit 32 at least.

Definitely time to get the cooling ideas in place.
 
Davo99
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Posted: 12:26am 12 Sep 2021
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What a difference some sun and heat makes.
29 yesterday and 74 KWh.  Supposed to be the same today.
Has been coming up just this week from low 60's with clear skies so a decent Jump.
have not changes a single thing with the panels for many months so it reflects entirely the improving solar radiation.

Despite now having 2 sets of fans in the shed now it still felt decidedly warm in there although later in the afternoon felt a bit chilly  when directly in front of them. Acclimatisation still at play I think. Next few days are supposedly going to be much cooler and wet.

I had the tube fan blowing in the house from about Mid day and windows open at the far ends of the house. Was hoping to get an airflow through to try and warm it. The house never seemed to feel near as warm as outside.  In the evening when the sun went down, the temp quickly dropped like a stone. I measured my various spots and the best I saw was 20o. it was 19 when I started so no worthwhile improvement to speak of which was perplexing.

After blowing in air most the afternoon with an 8" blower going flat out, I was expecting to get the place a lot warmer. Not sure what is going on. Having lived in totally uninsulated houses, if it was down to that the place would still be warm from the day well into the night and would have got near day temp pretty easy.

Seems there really needs to be a LOT of this low temp differential air to make a difference. That or having the temp 10 o or higher is important to get a worth while temp rise.

The main lounge room which is on the north end has really been heating up this week.
I'm really questioning the value of having the sun shine on rooms during winter.
It seemed to make no difference at all in there in the coolest months but now If the doors are left shut, the room turns into a Hot box.
Much of the walls have hedges in front of them but I might look at getting some little  awnings over the 2 sets of Double doors to keep the heat out there.
The sun coming in in winter seems to have very little benefit.  Spose I could always look at those canvas type that could be retracted.

I don't know how clean you need your work area Roger but you might want to talk to your friend about some  paper filter inserts.  I can see with the airflow you are going to have there will be a lot of potential for dust to be carried in which may not be significant on any day but could build up over time moving lots of air through.
 
rogerdw
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Posted: 08:05am 12 Sep 2021
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  Davo99 said  What a difference some sun and heat makes.
29 yesterday and 74 KWh.  Supposed to be the same today.


Sounds like another decent day then  ...  and that's a pretty decent output from the solar too. Our forecast is for 17 and rain.


  Quote  Has been coming up just this week from low 60's with clear skies so a decent Jump.
have not changes a single thing with the panels for many months so it reflects entirely the improving solar radiation.


Always good when you predict a certain output and that's what you get.


  Quote  Seems there really needs to be a LOT of this low temp differential air to make a difference. That or having the temp 10 o or higher is important to get a worth while temp rise.


Yeah, I'm inclined to agree with that too. I mean it may increase the overall temp with a low differential  ...  but with 10 or 20 degrees you can feel the difference.


  Quote  I'm really questioning the value of having the sun shine on rooms during winter.
It seemed to make no difference at all in there in the coolest months but now If the doors are left shut, the room turns into a Hot box.


Mmm  ...  not sure about this. The only room we have that cops any sun is the laundry  ...  and if there's any sun at all, any time of the year  ...  it gets beautifully warm and quite quickly.

We keep the blind down if we want to keep the heat out  ...  and on cold days we have it up until the sun goes  ...  then put it down to try and retain the warmth.


  Quote  I don't know how clean you need your work area Roger but you might want to talk to your friend about some  paper filter inserts.  I can see with the airflow you are going to have there will be a lot of potential for dust to be carried in which may not be significant on any day but could build up over time moving lots of air through.


That's a good point really. My work's not overly dirty or dusty  ...  but over time there's no doubt the system will get caked in dust  ...  and it will be a fair bit of work to dismantle and clean out.


Dave, I've got to tell you that your idea of heat soaking the house definitely works.

As I mentioned a few days ago we got up to 29 in the lounge and then close again both Fri and Sat. The house was very comfortable, to the point that I didn't relight the fire Fri or Sat night.

Has been very nice in here today still  ...  and the fire hadn't been lit since stoking it up Thurs night.

Todays forecast has been for 17, cloud and rain  ...  and that's what we've had  ...  and a couple spells where it was absolutely freezing outside  ...  to the point were I came in and relit the fire so we don't lose to much momentum.

We had visitors and they kept saying how nice and warm it is in the house, and that was before I relit the fire. Even my wife seemed comfortable still.



  Davo99 said  Figured you must have been Busy but I was missing the latest episodes of " Days of our Roger" and beginning to wonder if you were OK.


Haha, thanks  ...  and yeah I can be a bit of a drama queen at times


  Quote  Man we must be Brothers or twins! I am exactly the same. I think I have 3 New pair of Ugg boots in there Mrs has bought me but I hate breaking them in because they are so tight.  And, they tend to make my feet too Hot.  The thick work sox I have are just right 90% of the time and when they are not I put on a pair of light shoes and all good.


Sounds like it.    I have trouble with them feeling tight, but only occasionally  ...  and once I start feeling hot, I gotta get them off as quick as I can.


  Quote  Same as my mates place. The house is Nice but not large.  There is a granny flat but he wants to knock that down and rebuild it.  Not sure why, 2 of the 3 Kids have their own homes now and the 3rd and favourite doesn't want to move out the house.


Good point. Time marches on slowly but steadily. We always wanted a bigger place for us and the kids  ...  and when we finally could afford one and found what we wanted  ...  as we shifted, the older of the girls moved out of home  ...  so we didn't really need 4 bedrooms.

Since then, the other 2 moved out, but the first came back  ...  so we still really don't need as big a place as this.


  Quote  Usually the houses were pretty small and crap. I love a good shed but even so, the house is the priority.


Yes, I have to agree there. I think that's why I fell in love with this place when I first saw it  ...  it ticked all the boxes  ...  including the fact that it has several acres of land which will be able to be subdivided. We're not in any hurry to lose the space, but it's a nice feeling knowing the empty paddock is going up in value every year.



  Quote  I'm now at the back of the 2nd Bay. The first one was easy, that was just my crap, this one is getting hard with other  personal stuff that's not mine and memories. The 3rd one will be a nightmare. Think i'm going to need to get some medication before I tackle that one. Just stuff I found already had me not doing well and having to walk away.


Sorry to hear that Dave, it must be hard. I don't suppose it has to be done  ...  but I'm sure it will help in the long run.


  Quote  I now Have 2 Bays I can park the tractor in.


That's gotta feel good. I cleaned a small area of the workshop yesterday, and just walking through feels so much better than before. I really need to do the rest.


  Quote  Now Comes the Big girls panties test to Chuck stuff....


Can't really help you there, I'm hopeless at that myself. I occasionally start a section of stuff I'm going to sell  ...  but a year or two later it's still sitting there gathering more and more dust and blocking up the works.


  Quote  One thing that has proven true for what I have been saying all along, it's NOT all mine as I have been blamed for and there is now at least a Demonstrable Half that is the Mrs or  other stuff. I always get the blame for it all but The Mrs came up yesterday and I was pointing out everything else and said when are your next days off because you are going to be spending them up where with me.


Haha, yep  ...  same trouble here. The mess is all my fault.  Ok, yeah a lot of it is  ...  but a long way less than "all".  


  Quote  Putting stuff on pallets was a good move.  I can take it out when I want to clean up in there during the day and then pick it up with the tractor and put it back in at night so it's out of the weather. takes no time to move it
I'm clearing first so I have as much space as I can make and put up shelves and Cupboards and then I can start organising.


That would be very handy  ...  has to make it easier.


  Quote  I want to rationalise it not just neatly warehouse it.


Yes, agreed. And it's a trap I have to be careful of. A bigger shed just means more room to store stuff, most of which should be moved on.


  Quote  Yes, I'm determined to get it done now. Still feel like I have just scratched the surface in the over all job but the more I do the more I like having the space and the minimal organisation so far.


Cool, keep the momentum going. Space is good!  


  Quote  Yeah, all OUR stuff would be gone, not a thing of theirs would be Chucked.


Exactly!  


  Quote  
That said, she is going to have to do some chucking because I won't be able to bring myself to do it.


Yep, understood  ...  and it might be as simple as that  ...  get everyone involved and make it a team effort in making the decisions.
Cheers,  Roger
 
Davo99
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Posted: 10:23am 12 Sep 2021
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  rogerdw said  
Sounds like another decent day then  ...  and that's a pretty decent output from the solar too. Our forecast is for 17 and rain.


Today was beautiful. about the same temp although it felt warmer but BOM said cooler.
Little cloud this afternoon so the solar was down 2Kwh.  Not complaining though.


  Quote  
Yeah, I'm inclined to agree with that too. I mean it may increase the overall temp with a low differential  ...  but with 10 or 20 degrees you can feel the difference.


Today was a good example of the reccomendation of the 35 or whatever it was and so much above ambient.  I put the fan in the window again and the air blowing in felt Chilly. Temp gun said 25 Which was what I got outside so wasn't just sucking cool air from under the verandah as I knew it couldn't but was wondering.
Moving air even at the same temp as ambient certainly can feel a LOT cooler. Guess that's why we have fans in Homes.

I thought of you and  turned the fan onto the floor. It was 19 When I started, coming in for lunch about 3 I saw it was 24.  I turned it off about 3 hours ago and the floor in that area is now 21. The carpet in the adjoining room is giving the same reading so a bit hard to say if it's reading surface temp or is heat soaked.

Checking the rest of the floor, it's showing 21 as well and far away from where the air blowing in could have reached around the corner of the kitchen Island.
I did go round the edges near the exposed walls and saw a definite 19 both at the front and rear of the house for a fair distance where I could measure without furniture.

The ambient at my measurement spots is 23 which is nice.  Perhaps there just wasn't enough time yesterday  to get the place properly soaked? Shooting the furniture  temps I'm also getting the same reading minus a degree here and there which I put down to measurement error and rounding of the meter.


  Quote  
Mmm  ...  not sure about this. The only room we have that cops any sun is the laundry  ...  and if there's any sun at all, any time of the year  ...  it gets beautifully warm and quite quickly.


Yeah, I might have to re evaluate how I was considering that.

I was thinking today the idea I had of going along the back with a vetandah of panels
May be a bit flawed.  That's the west side.  The panel I set up to pull the hot air from was  aimed north at the correct pitch.  That would not be the case with the verandah so I will need to re run the Numbers to see what is more realistic.

I was also thinking the perfect place for the solar heater would be that north side of the house.  There is a path along there and it's all out of sight so setting up some panels along there as a free-standing winter setup would probably pass approval.
Bit of a Run to the window though as there are only doors along there.

  Quote  We keep the blind down if we want to keep the heat out  ...  and on cold days we have it up until the sun goes  ...  then put it down to try and retain the warmth.


Yeah, I am very undecided about the value of Blinds. To my Mind they would have to me more or less sealed between the window and the room to really be effective.
If cost wasn't a factor, I'd have most of the windows Fitted with sheets of perspex with rubber moulding around the edge  to create a trapped air pocket.  It would be easy to do with the way the windows are fitted but perspex that size....  Probably not that much more to get double glazed windows fitted.

I might take some measurements and see if someone will give me some online estimates.
Maybe they have brought our something more cost effective.  TBH, I wouldn't care if half the windows were not able to be opened. We rarely open most of them anyway.
So damn many in this place You would only need to ever open half at a time.


  Quote  Dave, I've got to tell you that your idea of heat soaking the house definitely works.


Well it stands to reason just though having the radiation from a thermal mass but one thing that's really good about talking of things like this here is we get the feedback from others trying the ideas to either confirm them or give cause for a re think.
Nice that it's worked to keeping your house comfortable.

Your tubes will be the perfect candidate for this. About as free and automatic, nil Hands on heating as one could get. Hopefully with the increased size of the new array the good days will carry over to the cold ones and without doubt your wood heating labour will be greatly reduced.



  Quote  
Sorry to hear that Dave, it must be hard. I don't suppose it has to be done  ...  but I'm sure it will help in the long run.


I started in on the 3rd bay today.  Flanked it somewhat. I had a store of engines there as well and after cleaning a few other things up where a fair bit of chucking got done, I got into where the engines were.  I thought they can come out and go on a pallet as well.  Pulled out 6 little ones, 6Hp and under but I left the 30 Hp Ruggerini there for the time being. It's on it's own little trolley and out the way for now so left it.

I did get my brand new tool chests out and set them up.  Oh I am pleased!  They weigh over 100 KG and are good and sturdy. Put the  nice HD wheels on and the thing rolls round real Nice.  Even started filling it with tools.
Of course the spot I allowed is 30mm too narrow but not to worry. I'm wondering if it really needs a permanent spot at all being I'll want it at the front and rear of the shed depending what I'm doing. Seriously considering getting rid of an annoying old Cupboard but can't bring myself to unpack and find places for what is in that... yet.

This is going to be a vast Improvement on the  plastic tubs I have now with different tools in it. Marvellous how I discover what was blindingly obvious to everyone else.

The front of that bay won't be bad at all. The new BBQ takes up a lot of space, there are cupboards there some I'll use and one I'll  probably try to sell and if not   Burn/ chuck and bit of other Bulky stuff that will be no problem to go.

  Quote  
That said, she is going to have to do some chucking because I won't be able to bring myself to do it.


  Quote  Yep, understood  ...  and it might be as simple as that  ...  get everyone involved and make it a team effort in making the decisions.


The foreperson and Daughter came up today to marvel at the never before seen space.
I have put some stuff back in the 2nd bay, the cupboards I want as a work bench and some stuff to advertise to sell when we are paroled... whenever that might be.  

Mrs and I were going through a bag of old sheets and pillow cases.  Came across a few things and I lost it.  Memories of things I can see so clearly and I still can't handle .  I have no idea how I am going to do that back half of that bay.

I did decide to Pike on it for now though.
I got up in the mezzanine and had another WTF is all this crap here for? moment and agreed with the Mrs that would be better cleared first so what we  want to keep in the 3rd bay can be put up there safe and sound.  Won't have to double handle it either which will be a plus and no sign of mice up there either.

One disappointment is the tractor wont reach that  high to put pallets up. I'll have to put it on a pallet, lift it and then take it up the foot or so it's short and   and re stack it. Not a biggie but would have been nice to be able to put it straight up.  Maybe a set of ramps would do the trick.... which I'd never use again and have something else hanging round. Think when I put some of it up there I backed the ute in and stood in that which made it much easier to get up.

Perfect excuse to buy a forklift!!! An electric one I can move and load panels with and use the batteries for a DIY Mini grid as well.  
 
Warpspeed
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I bought several four drawer filing cabinets real cheap.
Ideal for storing odd stuff out in the shed.
Cheers,  Tony.
 
Davo99
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Posted: 05:11am 13 Sep 2021
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My neighbour recommended them to me a while back and I have been looking for some.
I saw him come in Sat morning with 3 in the back of his ute. He was going for a walk and saw them out the front of a house in the next street in their clean-up pile so went back and grabbed them.  

Just my luck.  
 
Davo99
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Posted: 11:31am 13 Sep 2021
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I think Rogers weekend weather blew up here today.
Cold and Miserable with just enough rain to be a pain in the arse. No good for watering anything but enough to make working outside a non starter as well.

Having SOOO much room in my shed now, I was able to play round with making up a Bull bar for the tractor so not all lost due to the weather.  

Mrs and I were both complaining of the cold in the house today but checking the inside temp gave consistent 20o reading leaning heavily to the side of 21.  Felt like half of that which shows  how quick one can acclimatise to warmer temps and then feel cold when they go back to what you were used to only a week or so before.

I checked the floor temps again. The spot where I had the blower going yesterday is the same as the rest of the floor, now back to 19. The edges of the floor near the walls are low 17. After the Mrs put the heater on low, the walls are reading 21 now and feels OK.

I wonder if the slab is changing temp much or it's just the surface temp that's being read?

I was talking to my mate today that does AC and also looks after a lot of pools and rec centres.  He said he's busy going round the places he looks after Checking and servicing heat pumps and Boilers that have been shut down that would normaly have been running.  He said if things do open back up again mid next month, they will have to start firing the heaters up in a couple of weeks so there is at least a fortnight to get the pools up to temp.

Having helped him with these on occasion and thinking back to what I understood, I said surely it doesn't take a fortnight to get them warmed up? He said no, some of the ones I have done in the last couple of years could come up in 24 Hrs or less as I  over specced them to cope with max loads but, they only bring them up a degree a day so the  expansion is limited and the shells don't crack or tiles fall off.

Would seem to me there could be a risk of the same thing ( cracking) if one were to heat  a floor slab too quick or just heat a part of it without the rest?
No idea but mate having mentioned this got me thinking. 2nd thoughts are it's going to take The heating power of one of my burners cranked up rather than the few KW we would Impose otherwise. The localised heating roger gets with his wood fore would confirm that.

Certainly been a lot of cracks in this place since we came here but I have had them looked at by various people  and they all put it down to the expansion and contraction of the ground due to the dry and wet. As said, when they appeared in the drought, they have mostly closed up when we got the Floods!  
They are also in the walls rather than any I have seen in the tiled areas.

Also thinking about it, underfloor heating does not seem to be a problem but that is pretty wide areas with pretty even heating.
 
rogerdw
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  Davo99 said  I thought of you and  turned the fan onto the floor.


Yeah, I need to do more of that myself.

I'm of two minds really  ...  whether it's like pumping the hot air staight out a window  ...  or whether it really does add heat to the floor, which gives it up a little later on.

It is possible that the floor just soaks it all up and it goes straight down into the ground  ...  because the temperature certainly stays lower in the house  ...  but I do hope it is actually storing most of it.


  Quote  Perhaps there just wasn't enough time yesterday  to get the place properly soaked?


When I think about it, I know we need the fire on for several days before we start to notice that it is generally warmer inside  ...  though once it is warm, it seems to stay warm with less effort.

And same goes when we have a warm spell  ...  it takes several days of warm weather before the house can start to feel overly warm and we need to take some action. Most times it is just a matter of opening up at night to let the cool breezes through  ...  unless the temp doesn't drop much, in which case we need the aircon on.



  Quote  Yeah, I am very undecided about the value of Blinds. To my Mind they would have to me more or less sealed between the window and the room to really be effective.


I'd have to agree with that  ...  the closer the fit and the less air that can get around them, the better they are I reckon.

Ours is very close fitting to the frame, so seems quite effective  ...  though I'm sure it could be done better with a bit of effort.


  Quote  Nice that it's worked to keeping your house comfortable.


I think the hardest thing is to always be planning ahead and grabbing the heat when we can  ...  rather than waiting till it's cold and then it's too late and gotta burn some coal to warm up again.


  Quote  Well it stands to reason just though having the radiation from a thermal mass but one thing that's really good about talking of things like this here is we get the feedback from others trying the ideas to either confirm them or give cause for a re think.


Yeah, I suppose we could go spend all day theorising and fantasizing with the washing machine girls  ...  but this way is far more satisfying and productive  ...  and I have some facts now to back up my arguments. Whether I'm coming to the correct conclusions I don't know  ...  but it's better than not doing the experiments.

I think one of the biggest things I've learned in this discussion is that there are different angles to tackling this issue. Until Warp gave an explanation for how it works for him with a low thermal mass house, I never really considered it at all  ...  especially seeing I've only ever lived in homes with high thermal mass.


  Quote  Your tubes will be the perfect candidate for this. About as free and automatic, nil Hands on heating as one could get. Hopefully with the increased size of the new array the good days will carry over to the cold ones and without doubt your wood heating labour will be greatly reduced.


Yeah, I'm still excited to see this through  ...  though so many other tasks getting in the way all the time. Especially after yesterday when it got so cold outside  ...  yet inside was beautiful.


  Quote  I did get my brand new tool chests out and set them up.  Oh I am pleased!  They weigh over 100 KG and are good and sturdy. Put the  nice HD wheels on and the thing rolls round real Nice.  Even started filling it with tools.


That's awesome. A few wins along the way is what we need to keep us going.

It was great being able to walk into the workshop this morning after my little clean up and enjoy the little bit of tidyness.


  Quote   Marvellous how I discover what was blindingly obvious to everyone else.


You're not alone there  ...  I have dozens of little jobs I could do that would save me a ton of time and annoyance  ...  but I just keep doing it the hard way.


  Quote  I have no idea how I am going to do that back half of that bay.


I certainly don't envy your job. I guess you need to all be in on it together  ...  and I suppose it may depend on what you plan on doing with it all  ...  keeping it and storing it  ....  or finding new homes for some of it amongst some friends perhaps?


  Quote  Won't have to double handle it either which will be a plus


That would have to help .


  Quote  Maybe a set of ramps would do the trick.


Do any of your friends have a set of ramps for machinery or cars  ...  if you could borrow a set and put them up on blocks, just high enough to get that extra foot.

Plonk one pallet up there  ...  then lever it to where you want it  ...  then put up the next. Would have to be easier than lots of manhandling.



  Quote  Perfect excuse to buy a forklift!!! An electric one I can move and load panels with and use the batteries for a DIY Mini grid as well.  


Haha, great idea. I'm sure the Mrs will be all for it.



  Warpspeed said  I bought several four drawer filing cabinets real cheap.
Ideal for storing odd stuff out in the shed.


Yeah, I've got a heap for storing tools as well. In fact I bought a number of double width filing cabinets which work very well. Still need to organise them all properly though. Around here, they seem to be getting cheaper and cheaper  ...  often see them on marketplace for $20 or $30  ...  normal ones that is.


  Warpspeed said  For a workshop/garage with a high ceiling, how about a "elephants trunk duct".

This could be winched up right out of the way, or pointed in any direction, so you get the heat wherever you happen to be working.


Looks like a great idea, though because of the way the shed's built I will probably have the tubes bolted to the wall with the top manifolds at about 7-8ft.

Then all I'll need is a 90 degree bend at each end, piping in and out through the wall. There is a mezzanine floor above the workshop with a heap of storage space up there  ...  so that would be difficult to navigate.
Cheers,  Roger
 
Davo99
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Posted: 03:35am 14 Sep 2021
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  rogerdw said  

It is possible that the floor just soaks it all up and it goes straight down into the ground  ...  because the temperature certainly stays lower in the house  ...  but I do hope it is actually storing most of it.


Like most things, I'm in about 17 Minds on that.
First there is the massive amount of thermal mass that has to be heated. 2nd, there is the ability of the concrete to convect heat. Off the top of my head, I think it's  pretty poor conductor so the heating is likely to be localised.  3rd, Dirt is DEFINITELY a poor conductor of heat... unless it's wet and it could be wet or dry under the slab. 4th, if the heat is leaching into the soil, then even the first 10 cm is likely to be a significant thermal mass. A Cubic meter of soil weighs around 1.6T depending on moisture so  that adds to the amount of energy required to make a difference.

Crunching some numbers...

-ROUGHLY- raising the temp of 1 Sqm of concrete and soil, 100mm each, 200mm depth total, is going to take ( I was only half Kilo out on what I guessed) around 10.56 KWH. Many variables but that's certainly in the Conservative (IE, likely to be MORE)  ball park taking into account differences in thermal densities and weights of the respective materials.

I imagine in practicality you could easily double that because the sqm of thermal mass we are talking about is connected all round to the rest of the slab which will be leeching it  although heating up somewhat too but to get our first sqm.... 20Kwh I think would be in the ball park. The ajoining areas should be a bit less till they all leveld out back at around 10- maybe 12 KWH M2.

That's a Lot of energy for a tiny bit of floor area.
That is around 700 Kwh @ 10 Kwh m2 for my Kitchen floor.  Wow!  Was regretting a bit I didn't find the cheap thermal wire when we re did the tiling but seeing those Numbers...... I'd have to start heating it in march to have the available power to get it up to speed. What it would use to maintain it.... I hate to think.
That said, the meter on the fan heater here in the office is coming up on 450KW for the season so....

If I did underfloor heating I definitely think it would be an proposition for an oil burner.

Anyway, based on that, I think it's going to need a LOT of hot air blowing to make any difference even just to offset any cold coming UP though the slab. Bear in mind the air blowing on the tiles would have a pathetic efficiency of imparting the heat to the floor. I'd reckon 5% might be optimistic. Still, the heat would bounce off and go into the house so not like the energy would be wasted.


  Quote  
When I think about it, I know we need the fire on for several days before we start to notice that it is generally warmer inside  ...  though once it is warm, it seems to stay warm with less effort.


I think that bit of Number crunching I just did concurs with your and my practical results pretty well. Sure we both knew it was going to take a lot of energy but just how much when practically applied is significant.

The heating also goes back to the thermal transmission properties of the cement.
I'm sure you could blast it with a flame thrower for an hour  and you would find that the heat did not spread very far at all.  The thermal energy will transfer but the rate at which that transfer takes place is another thing.

  Quote  And same goes when we have a warm spell  ...  it takes several days of warm weather before the house can start to feel overly warm and we need to take some action.


And again we see why with the numbers calculated and my point about the speed of thermal saturation speed.

  Quote  
I think the hardest thing is to always be planning ahead and grabbing the heat when we can  ...  rather than waiting till it's cold and then it's too late and gotta burn some coal to warm up again.


That really comes back in my mind to the basis of the Industrial Revolution. All this Clean and reliable energy is really taking us back to the same problems of 150 years ago.  As is our reliance on solar in the different ways you and I utilise it.

The energy is unreliable and it's also most available when we least need it and Vice Versa.
Myself, I have concluded that solar energy storage for MY circumstances is impractical.  Yeah, If I could store heat From Dec to Mar to use in June to Aug, fantastic but I can't  and there is not enough available in the winter months when I need it to be satisfy my needs.  
Matter of take what we can get when we can get it and be happy but if you are putting all your eggs in that basket, you are going to be eating them raw that's for sure.
Why they think they can base entire grids on this intermittent energy is beyond me but that's another rant.


  Quote  

Yeah, I suppose we could go spend all day theorising and fantasizing with the washing machine girls  ...


I looked in there on the weekend. Oh my!  Thay are still going round in the same circles and talking the exact same crap on the same threads as when I told them to shove it.  They love talk but very few of them every risk chipping a nail by doing something hands on.



  Quote  but this way is far more satisfying and productive  ...  and I have some facts now to back up my arguments. Whether I'm coming to the correct conclusions I don't know  ...  but it's better than not doing the experiments.


Precisely. And coming to the right conclusions is maybe not as important as adopting the right practices or procedures.
I remember being in the country many years ago far in the boonies.  The property was cut off from help due to Flooding.  There was a really sick Dog that I looked after and did the best I could. I made all the wrong assumptions about what was causing the problem but what I did for the dog was spot on. When we got it to a vet the was commending me and the great job I did and the fact he would have done exactly the same. When I told him why I did it and my take on the situation, he got a funny look and said you are completely and utterly wrong but does not matter, you did everything right, the animal is much better and not dead, it's the result that counts not why you took the action that was correct anyway.  

Never forget that and if nothing else, shows having a go is the important bit.  I have done the same thing a number of times since. Got the theory completely arse up but the actions right and the result is the same. Even if the idea behind what you do is wrong but the course of action is correct, you still get the right result and that's what Counts.... Except if you could have got the same result much quicker and easier and cheaper had you had the right idea....  But luckily I have never done that... ( Cough, cough   )

  Quote  I think one of the biggest things I've learned in this discussion is that there are different angles to tackling this issue.


I can honestly say I learnt a very long time ago there are ALWAYS different ways of Tackling EVERY problem.  Some of the most effective are very counter intuitive until they are either explained or you think them through and then you realise that the "Unusual"  method being " wrong" , the normal method is sadly lacking and a lesser approach.

Back in my veg days I approached nearly every established practice from a perspective  that I got ridiculed for but most of them worked and many of them now are the standard practice in the game.

Too many just play follow the leader and don't stop, think about what they are doing, why they are doing it, what the real core goal of the exercise is and put different ideas to the test.

I was asking about bull bars on a brand specific Tractor Forum  yesterday within the Model type sub forum which is the most popular one.  I said I wanted to use a solid steel plate across the front for best protection.  All these people jumped in telling me I couldn't do that because it would block the airflow to the radiator and I'd Cook the thing and the factory ones were mesh for that reason.
There would be a good 4" from the plate to the Cowling so I couldn't see why it would matter?

I also reminded them that the engine is reverse mounted and the radiator is at the other end of the cowl where the Driver sits and pulls air from there.  I doubt the flywheel would overheat with less airflow sitting behind the plate.
Pretty amazing how many people with the same machine forgot that and automatically thought of a car or a truck.  


  Quote  though so many other tasks getting in the way all the time.


Yeah, that annoying thing call life that endlessly takes us away from what we want to do and throws multiple things at us we have to do all at the same time.
No wonder  Round Tuits are so plentiful!


  Quote  
Do any of your friends have a set of ramps for machinery or cars  ...  if you could borrow a set and put them up on blocks, just high enough to get that extra foot.


Pffft! I'm the friend that lends mine to everyone else!  
I did think of that. Luckily I also have an amount of that rubber flooring I liberated from the dumpster when they were putting in a new Gym up the road.  I'll put the ramps on that so they are not skating across the smooth concrete floor.
Going to take a bit of measuring to get them in the right place I expect but should work. I might do what I have been going to for years and raise the end stops. Tractor will drive clean over them without noticing which would not be good at all.

  Quote  
Haha, great idea. I'm sure the Mrs will be all for it.


Hmmm, I had my doubts but if you think so, I'll run it by her...maybe on the phone when I am well out of arms reach... just to be on the safe side.
I was thinking of my electric winch but the ridgeline of the roof is probably taxed holding up panels being just that thin pressed hat profile. Any decent support runs across the garage.... In all the wrong places for anything really.

I could reach up there with the Jib crane easy enough but then I'd have to trade the pallet for one of those old rope sling things they used to use to load ships before sea Cans came along.  


  Quote   Around here, they seem to be getting cheaper and cheaper  ...  often see them on marketplace for $20 or $30  ...  normal ones that is.


Probably due to so many businesses going to the wall.  

After warps Suggestion, I looked them up on the sales sites.  Quite a few being given away, unfortunately not near me but I'll keep an eye out and if I could get a few in a reasonably straight line or loop out and back, that would make the trip worthwhile.
There is one going nearby for $50 but it looks too nice for a Shed.
Might see if it's there in a week and ask if they will take less...or some of my surplus Cupboards and Cabinets in trade.
 
rogerdw
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  Davo99 said  Like most things, I'm in about 17 Minds on that.


Haha, definitely brothers.


  Quote  Anyway, based on that, I think it's going to need a LOT of hot air blowing to make any difference even just to offset any cold coming UP though the slab. Bear in mind the air blowing on the tiles would have a pathetic efficiency of imparting the heat to the floor. I'd reckon 5% might be optimistic. Still, the heat would bounce off and go into the house so not like the energy would be wasted.


Yes, agreed  ...  and my experience so far keeps me heading down this track. Your numbers and equations are pretty impressive, though they're way over my head.


  Quote  Yeah, If I could store heat From Dec to Mar to use in June to Aug, fantastic but I can't  and there is not enough available in the winter months when I need it to be satisfy my needs.  


Would be awesome if we had a means to store it, but you're right  ...  just not possible (yet).


  Quote  Matter of take what we can get when we can get it and be happy but if you are putting all your eggs in that basket, you are going to be eating them raw that's for sure.


Haha, yep.


  Quote  I looked in there on the weekend. Oh my!  Thay are still going round in the same circles and talking the exact same crap on the same threads as when I told them to shove it.  They love talk but very few of them every risk chipping a nail by doing something hands on.


I haven't bothered, it's too depressing. Lots of talent in many places but simply not being used to advantage  ...  then they try to argue from a point in theory and have no idea how to check any of them.


  Quote  And coming to the right conclusions is maybe not as important as adopting the right practices or procedures.


Or even just trying to prove a theory would be nice without all the bluff and bluster trying to get everyone else to agree with them and not even consider an alternative view.


  Quote  and said you are completely and utterly wrong but does not matter, you did everything right, the animal is much better and not dead, it's the result that counts not why you took the action that was correct anyway.


I wonder how often I have the wrong end of the stick too  ...  and no wonder things go wrong occasionally  ...  though just as well some go right or I'd give up I guess.



  Quote  Too many just play follow the leader and don't stop, think about what they are doing, why they are doing it, what the real core goal of the exercise is and put different ideas to the test.


Yes, see that a lot in many areas and not interested in the slightest in entertaining alternative views.


  Quote  Yeah, that annoying thing call life that endlessly takes us away from what we want to do and throws multiple things at us we have to do all at the same time.
No wonder  Round Tuits are so plentiful!


Yeah  ...  as well as all the things I allow in the way as a means of procrastinating. I always have an excuse somewhere.


  Quote  I might do what I have been going to for years and raise the end stops. Tractor will drive clean over them without noticing which would not be good at all.


Sounds like a good investment in time  ...  could save a lot of pain.


  Quote  Hmmm, I had my doubts but if you think so, I'll run it by her...maybe on the phone when I am well out of arms reach... just to be on the safe side.


Haha  ...  yeah some things are better left alone.


  Quote  Probably due to so many businesses going to the wall.  


Could well be  ...  plus so much reliance on 'cloud storage' instead of physical storage.

I'm still old school and while I use my pc  ...  I still have a lot of paper based stuff. So much quicker and easier, especially when things go offline or the pc is chucking a fit.

And for all those who think I'm wasting resources  ...  I use less paper in a year than what would get normally get dumped here in a month if we allowed them to stick junk mail in our letter box. In fact the two times in 6 years we've got junk mail it was far too big a roll to even go in our letter box. The regular deliverer musta been on holidays and the stand-in was very efficient.


  Quote  After warps Suggestion, I looked them up on the sales sites.  Quite a few being given away


Yeah, keep watching  ...   you'll score more than you need I'm sure.
Cheers,  Roger
 
Davo99
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  rogerdw said    Your numbers and equations are pretty impressive, though they're way over my head.


You can get the numbers for everything online as fas as density's and Thermal capacity's go. Then it's just a mater of multiplying them out with basic maths. There are Equations for doing them but I avoid them as we are not Building Bridges or sky scrapers here so basic calculations are good enough. Always a lot of variables and unknowns anyway and we only need a rough idea.

I just find it's useful to know if something is 2, 100 or 3655 so you at least have an idea of what you might be up against or have to allow for. Even if we were given a precise number, not like we are building anything to cater to that with the same accuracy anyway.  


  Quote  
Would be awesome if we had a means to store it, but you're right  ...  just not possible (yet).


So many Times I have walked past my AC and felt the air Coming out the Condenser and thought " If Only there was a way of Storing that Cold for summer or the heat for winter instead of letting it blow away". The efficiency would be off the scale as would the cost and energy saving.  

  Quote  
Or even just trying to prove a theory would be nice without all the bluff and bluster trying to get everyone else to agree with them and not even consider an alternative view.


These days, ONLY ever ONE correct way to think and if you don't, not only are you wrong but there is something wrong with you for not being a part of the heard and sheep mentality by daring to think for yourself. If You REALLY want to offend the pack mentality, Start talking Truth and facts they can't deny.  That really lights them up and gets you hated!

Nothing as offensive as the truth when it does not agree with the Narrative they are trying to brainwash people with.

Their arguments are based on what the media says but if you link to something that doesn't agree, then it must be made up or can be dismissed because that news source is not creditable regardless of whom they are quoting or the clear logic in it.

For me the sad part is how easily lead people can be and how lazy they are in just preferring to go with anything presented to them rather than do any research into it themselves to find the truth.

I grantee, If I had a couple of news sites or did an interview with some celeb famous and notable only for being famous somehow in the first place,  and started publishing that Fried Dog do do would make people 4" Taller, eliminate Balding, increase women's chests 3 Bra sizes and reverse the effects of aging,  People would be rushing to parks Following every one round with a Fido they could find ,just waiting for them to drop the magic Nuggets and would be serving it up for dinner that night.
For the first time in human history, Kids would be begging for Broccoli and cauliflower instead of the literal crap they were being dished up.

They would then tell you it tasted like Chicken and all the sudden they could tickle the Ivory's better than a concert Pianist even through they had never played a note before.

  Quote  
Yes, see that a lot in many areas and not interested in the slightest in entertaining alternative views.


Never better illustrated than the last 18 Months or so when people have made predictions and expressed fears and been called conspiracy theorists and crackpots then 6 Months later the very thing they said has not only become reality but Normality.

You Really have to be way out there now to be fairly called a conspiracy theorist because most of the old ones have now become very accurate predictors and Visionaries and have the runs on the board to prove it.


  Quote  

Could well be  ...  plus so much reliance on 'cloud storage' instead of physical storage.


Good point.  I hadn't considered that but it's no doubt a factor. I think the working from home thing might have an influence. I'm already hearing and seeing a lot of businesses downsizing their office space because a lot of their employees even before the latest wave of the pox were working from home and only coming in once a week or so for meetings/ updates.

Can't walk up to my wife now to talk to her in case she is a meeting with 20 People That can see and hear her. Gotta put pants on instead of just walking round in my Reg Grundys as well!

Was pretty Funny last week when she was sitting there with my little Dinosaur ( Lizard) sitting on her shoulder. She took a video call from one of her team.  Dinosaur was sitting on her neck Hiding in her hair and crawled around and the woman my wife was talking to thought it was a snake on her neck and had a freak out. Wasn't too calm when my wife showed her and asked if she could put it away.  I mean the woman was only about 60 Km away, Must of thought it was going to jump in the computer and end up round her neck or something.  Sheesh!





  Quote  And for all those who think I'm wasting resources  ...  


Pffft! Don't get me started! The amount of stuff we got at the old place was incredible. I think the record was 18 pieces of crap in one Delivery. Not one day, we could easily get 3-4 Drops but one lot was 18 different pieces.  I think it was because we lived in the middle and not far from 2 Big shopping centres so were within area of just about every retail chain out there plus all the small businesses around.
Couldn't keep the Letterbox Clear around Christmas  and the stuff would fall out of people boxes and be blowing everywhere along the road making a hell of a mess.
I literally bought a petrol powered Industrial Vac so I could clean it all up it was such a problem and an eyesore. Hit it with the mower and it turns to confetti that sprays out and makes a worse mess.

Here promotional material is so rare we get excited about it. It's like " Hey, remember this?"  And "we ARE still on the map afterall!!

As for resources.... Please. Again the guilt tripping of the little guy while Big biz generates in an hour what Joe average could not get through in 5 lifetimes.

In any case, against the fable, Paper wood is farmed and it's not a matter of cutting down wild forest. Thats reserved for the timber industry  these days because the wood is too valuable and usually the wrong species  for paper.

Complaining about use of resources in paper is like saying don't eat bread or Wheat will become extinct.  



Looks like a patchy week of weather ahead here. Fine and sunny today, maybe a shower tomorrow, then back to fine and rain again maybe saturday.

Only thing  you can rely on with the weather is that getting sunshine is never  reliable!
 
rogerdw
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  Davo99 said  You can get the numbers for everything online as fas as density's and Thermal capacity's go. Then it's just a mater of multiplying them out with basic maths.


I don't do enough of it to be confident of my results  ...  and afraid I'll be going off under false presumptions. Need someone to doublecheck my numbers.



  Quote  So many Times I have walked past my AC and felt the air Coming out the Condenser and thought " If Only there was a way of Storing that Cold for summer or the heat for winter instead of letting it blow away".


Yep, fairly common dream I reckon. I do feel some sort of heat bank is more do-able than a cool storage  ...  but if all the great minds have drawn a blank  ...  what hope do I have.  


  Quote  These days, ONLY ever ONE correct way to think and if you don't, not only are you wrong but there is something wrong with you for not being a part of the heard and sheep mentality by daring to think for yourself.


Haha, yep. Read a quote by CS Lewis yesterday  ...  

"When the whole world is running towards a cliff, he who is running in the opposite direction appears to have lost his mind!"


  Quote  Never better illustrated than the last 18 Months or so when people have made predictions and expressed fears and been called conspiracy theorists and crackpots then 6 Months later the very thing they said has not only become reality but Normality.


Yeah, and I'm sure there'll be plenty more to come.


  Quote  I think the working from home thing might have an influence.


Yes, very likely too.


  Quote  Wasn't too calm when my wife showed her and asked if she could put it away.  I mean the woman was only about 60 Km away, Must of thought it was going to jump in the computer and end up round her neck or something.


Makes you wonder about people that's for sure.



  Quote  Don't get me started! The amount of stuff we got at the old place was incredible.


Fortunately my wife has always hated it and doesn't want it delivered  ...  and I am happy with that because it is a terrible waste  ...  and I can spend more than enough without being tempted with a heap of extra stuff I'll probably never use anyway.


  Quote  As for resources.... Please. Again the guilt tripping of the little guy while Big biz generates in an hour what Joe average could not get through in 5 lifetimes.


Exactly.


  Quote  In any case, against the fable, Paper wood is farmed and it's not a matter of cutting down wild forest.


That touches on a topic that has got under my skin.

Bringing our 7y/o home from school a while ago, I pulled up in front of a new house being built just to talk about it and as I am apt to do  ...  just expose him to as many different things as possible.

Once he realised it was a timber frame, he became really irate  ...  how dare they cut down trees to build houses, they should get locked up  ...  rant/rave.

I couldn't believe it. Where on earth has a 7 y/o picked that up from. I can only assume it was from school.

I spent ages giving him some balanced details  ...  and despite the fact that we've travelled through timber country down the south east numerous times on our way to visit my brother and one of our daughters  ...  and travelled for hours at a time through the forests  ...

...  and I had already explained the whole concept of farming trees for timber for housing etc on several of those trips  ...

...  yet some moron has managed to brainwash him with completely false information.


As a kid, I picked up on all the doom and gloom at the time  ...  though for me it was nuclear war, the communists, pollution, over population  ...  and of course the grand daddy of them all global COOLING!!! We were all going to freeze to death, hah!!!

So I have always made a huge effort to be aware of and counter all the current brainwashing that is being applied to our kids  ...  and that's what annoys me most, that I thought I had that one covered.

One thing I am thankful for is that he is not afraid of covid  ...  he doesn't seem to have picked up on that fortunately.

The subject of AIDS has come up a few times in our reading material and he has asked each time what it was. I pointed out that 25 years ago it was the same sort of drama as what we are going through now with covid  ...

...  and back then the whole world was panicking and thinking the end of the world was coming  ...  but yet slowly and surely the news people found something else to replace it with  ...  to the point that it's rarely mentioned. And they never found a cure for it did they? I dunno.

Haha, so now I'm ranting and raving.  
Cheers,  Roger
 
Davo99
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  rogerdw said  
I don't do enough of it to be confident of my results  ...  and afraid I'll be going off under false presumptions. Need someone to doublecheck my numbers.


Well I wouldn't like to build a bridge or a skyscraper based on my calculations but for our purposes of DIY, they put you in the ball park and that's good enough.
Tells me if something is non viable or not and what ballpark I have to be in. That's good enough for my purposes because I can't account for weather  and a Million other factors that could have FAR more influence than the error margin in my dogy calculations.



  Quote  
Yep, fairly common dream I reckon. I do feel some sort of heat bank is more do-able than a cool storage  ...  but if all the great minds have drawn a blank  ...  what hope do I have.  


Probably a good one!
There have been endless discoveries made by people stuffing round in the shed and some of them quite Hi tech and millions that are common practice? procedure/ technology used every day.


I would like to play with cold storage as well.  Ice has a HUGE cold storage capacity and when it phase changes from water to ice, the thermal storage goes up by like 60 or 100X. Doesn't have to be super cold or anything special at all, just has to turn to ice.

There are a fair few challenges in using ice storage but it is used commercially now.
I was only thinking the other day to sit down and do some calcs again on what the 2000L water tank beside the house could store with the possible temp differences I could get using just a water spray on a Radiator at night.
Not sure it will be much because the differential will not be huge.

I was keen to get one of those portable AC units and try that in the house till I discovered they exhaust the hot ( or cold) air out a window but suck  air from the house. In other words the would be pulling hot air in though the cracks  in the doors and windows etc.  I spose  I could have a return air from outside going to the unit and that might help but seems counter productive just the same.

I would like to learn more about absorption refrigeration but the nothing I know so far says that these systems at least USED to use ammonia and that is both hard to get now and very dangerous.  


  Quote  
I couldn't believe it. Where on earth has a 7 y/o picked that up from. I can only assume it was from school.


I am glad my kids are well out of school. was bad enough the years ago when they were and they went to recognised good schools.  I was horrified at what they DIDN'T teach them then. If 10% of the things I have heard that go on now are true....  I'd be home schooling them or something myself because I'd be barred from going near the school and I would not stand for the Rot and garbage they go on with.

I remember my Friends Kid Getting into trouble for saying " Merry Christmas".  The boy was the opposite of a model student and regularly getting into trouble but my mate was rightfully up the school the next morning Blowing a fuse. He said he knew he was a Bugger of a kid, he had always told the teachers to give him hell when he played up and gave him more when he got home BUT, if they thought they were going to give him strife for saying that, they were going to have a BIG problem on their hands.

You would think such a thing was a stitch up it was so ridiculous but it wasn't and it wasn't yesterday that happened either.

I spent ages giving him some balanced details  ...  

You Might want to show him the Ikea web site Roger. I think there is also a think on YT about how they own vast pine plantation to get the timber they need to make their products.  I saw it a while back and while I forget the details exactly, I still remember it was very impressive.  They grow and process all their own timber  and buy some from Sustainable  growers  as well so really it's no different to farming for Corn or Beef.

Have you had any time to do any more on the heater?

I was just outside and had a look at my inverters and Noticed they were Maxxed out again even though it's not a particularly Bright Day. The same happened yesterday. The sun was poking out from around a cloud and when it moved away and the ambient light levels went UP, the output went down.

That cloud edge effect is very pronounced and powerful at times.
I wonder if it will affect Tubes in the same way and increase the heat output for the short time it is in play?
 
rogerdw
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  Davo99 said  Probably a good one!
There have been endless discoveries made by people stuffing round in the shed and some of them quite Hi tech and millions that are common practice? procedure/ technology used every day.


Haha, that's the sort of thing I keep telling my little fella when I try to encourage him to get involved with something other than computer games. I guess I should be telling myself that too.


  Quote  I would like to play with cold storage as well.  Ice has a HUGE cold storage capacity and when it phase changes from water to ice, the thermal storage goes up by like 60 or 100X. Doesn't have to be super cold or anything special at all, just has to turn to ice.


It always fascinates me when I read about sensible heat and latent heat  ...  I just wish I could get my head around it better. Reading that it takes so much energy to lower a litre of water one degree from 2 to 1  ...  but then a collossal amount more to drop it to zero.

And then of course the fact that it gives up that energy when it thaws.


  Quote  I was keen to get one of those portable AC units and try that in the house till I discovered they exhaust the hot ( or cold) air out a window but suck  air from the house. In other words the would be pulling hot air in though the cracks  in the doors and windows etc.  I spose  I could have a return air from outside going to the unit and that might help but seems counter productive just the same.


I'd never thought of that. I had one in my old workshop that I used occasionally  ...  but that was so leaky it didn't really matter.

It does remind me about normal refrigerators though  ...  sweating its guts out to cool the stuff inside it  ...  but pumping that heat out into the kitchen and making life harder for itself. That's a candidate for a seperate air system too.


  Quote  I would like to learn more about absorption refrigeration but the nothing I know so far says that these systems at least USED to use ammonia and that is both hard to get now and very dangerous.


Yes, I've often wondered about them too. We had an old kero fridge on the farm before we got electricity  ...  I remember the big stain up the wall, from the heat from the burner I suppose it was.


  Quote  I am glad my kids are well out of school. was bad enough the years ago when they were and they went to recognised good schools.  I was horrified at what they DIDN'T teach them then.


Yeah, one thing our older kids never seemed to learn was anything about history or geography.


  Quote  I remember my Friends Kid Getting into trouble for saying " Merry Christmas".


Oh well, we don't have to worry about that with his school, it's a christian school, so no problem  ...  but I've certainly heard of it with other local schools.

We were going to send him to a state school, but one of his godparents is a counsellor at the high school  ...  and she convinced us to reconsider  ...  and with all the stories she told us of what's happening and what's coming in schools  ...  we were sold on the idea pretty quickly.

The other amusing thing is that the principle of our boy's school was in the same class as my eldest daughter when she went there  ...  so we get on well.


  Quote  You Might want to show him the Ikea web site Roger. I think there is also a think on YT about how they own vast pine plantation to get the timber they need to make their products.  I saw it a while back and while I forget the details exactly, I still remember it was very impressive.  They grow and process all their own timber  and buy some from Sustainable  growers  as well so really it's no different to farming for Corn or Beef.


Thank you, that will be perfect  ... just the sort of thing I do look for and he generally laps up  ...  and you are correct, it is just farming and perfectly legit. Just coz it's over a longer time frame doesn't make it worse.


  Quote  Have you had any time to do any more on the heater?


Umm ...  errr  ...  yeah, I've had time, but I haven't done anything.  

Usual story, other things pop their heads and I have to sort out  ...  and I get lazy on going back out to the shed at night.

I'm still getting fabulous results from the trial unit and even though the weather has been milder this week, it is still keeping the house heat soaked nicely. Certainly is not making it too hot yet  ...  just extending the time that I can leave the wood fire off.

I can be quite cold in the workshop and come in for a coffee, and it is nice and cozy inside the house  ...  makes it a bit hard to go back out.  


  Quote  I was just outside and had a look at my inverters and Noticed they were Maxxed out again even though it's not a particularly Bright Day. The same happened yesterday. The sun was poking out from around a cloud and when it moved away and the ambient light levels went UP, the output went down.


Yes, that's fascinating.

I'm pretty sure there's a similar pattern with this solar heater too  ...  but I can't really explain it yet. I notice really high outputs sometimes and think the conditions don't look all that spectacular outside  ...  and then other times I go to check it out expecting a record output  ...  and it's quite mediocre.

I need to pay more attention but it could be the cloud effect, just not sure.


Here's yesterdays temperature rise next to the inlet into the heater  ...

From a low of 17.4 to 25.3

It was still around 19 in the kitchen this morning and I hadn't relit the fire yesterday or last night.

I heard the thing start up at 7:01 this morning, so is running longer each day now too.




Cheers,  Roger
 
Davo99
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Posted: 03:55am 17 Sep 2021
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  rogerdw said  
It does remind me about normal refrigerators though  ...  sweating its guts out to cool the stuff inside it  ...  but pumping that heat out into the kitchen and making life harder for itself. That's a candidate for a separate air system too.


When we re did the Kitchen 2 years back or whatever it was now ( time flies!)  the design like most has an enclosure for the Fridge to sit it. That was a sore point after making it well know as to the oversize fridge requirement they still made it too small but anyway....
There is a Cupboard over the top and due to the fridge depth, it sits Forward and there is a gap at the back. They wanted to fill it in but I said no.  I had trouble at my last place with the fridge being too close to the Cupboard at the top and their being insufficient airflow.

The gap at the top of this one isn't a lot either but now there is a clear passage all the way to the Ceiling.
I'm sure we loose some heat in winter like this but I'm not concerned.  Wouldn't be enough to worry about. I actually gave the area around the fridge the smoke test some months ago with an incense stick or whatever they call them and I couldn't really detect any draft around the fridge which surprised but pleased me.
When the thing is running there is certainly plenty of opportunity for the hot air to get away though and the cooler room air to be pulled in from underneath.

Perhaps what we loose in heat in summer we make back in better efficiency in winter.... when I have so much solar I couldn't give a toss.... so much for that idea!  :0(




  Quote  
Yeah, one thing our older kids never seemed to learn was anything about history or geography.


I was raised by my grandmother and she always used to say instead of all this useless maths that we would never use, would be a lot better off if they showed us how to fill out a tax form and job applications which would be skills everyone would need and use throughout their lives.

She was correct.


  Quote  
We were going to send him to a state school, but one of his godparents is a counsellor at the high school  ...  and she convinced us to reconsider .


Exactly the same as us.  My best mates sister was doing relief Teaching.  She flat out told us that it would do more harm than good to send our kids to the local school  literally on the corner of our block about 6 houses away.  She said due to the high turnover of students in the school which was something biblical like about 80% at the time and the high level of Immigrant kids that could barely read and write English, they would be held back badly.

She recommended a school just around the corner from her and further enquiries  showed the school was very highly regarded.  Every day for 7 years I drove them the 30 min there and 45 Back home even though the school was less than 12 Km away.  Just no easy way to go in those times and I knew the area well and every back road but in the end you had to go through or round the main city of the area and that's where the time was.


  Quote  

Umm ...  errr  ...  yeah, I've had time, but I haven't done anything.  


Like me. Have done nothing this week but walk round the shed and procrastinate. Been a bad week physically and mentally so it can wait.  One of my very few remaining teeth has been giving me grief and the dentist is Booked out.  They have several practices which have been quiet they closed which made the one they left open over loaded.  Cost saving for them I spose, not so great for the patients.  I have an appointment this afternoon but I don't think I'll be up to much the weekend.  Got a fair idea what they are going to have to do and it isn't going to calm down for a bit.

I'd prefer to have them all out and just have a couple of magnetic implants to hold the plate in but see what they say. Probably cost about $6K so have to see what the wife says first and foremost!! She may not think I'm worth it and she'd probably be right. Might figure patching up the old model isn't worth it and shed be better just trading me in on a newer more study model with hair that goes faster.



  Quote  
From a low of 17.4 to 25.3

It was still around 19 in the kitchen this morning and I hadn't relit the fire yesterday or last night.

I heard the thing start up at 7:01 this morning, so is running longer each day now too.


Making a VERY worthwhile heating contribution! The big system is going to be cranking the heat on the sunny days and around the beginning and ends of winter for sure.

We have been getting lows of 3's and 4's over night so while the days are plenty warm, the nights are still very winter like.

At least the solar is coming up to compensate.
Haven't used the AC in a month or more nor the Diesel heater.  It needs to be looked at but I was just thinking last night, if it were still being used right now where it would do well as the heating requirement is so much less,  to rely on that one would need at LEAST 1000L of fuel  for a complete season.

I will try to find some over the summer, mis-fuel, old fuel etc but to have that at the main heat source will take plenty of Juice.  I'll also be collecting and stockpiling Veg this summer as well.  That's the more viable option for me but if I get the diesel, that's an assett as well.

Looking on fleabay, I noticed the price of the heaters has come down to  just $90!
Pretty sure last summer they were around 70 so I'll keep an eye out and see if the do get cheaper and buy another.
 
rogerdw
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Posted: 03:00pm 17 Sep 2021
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  Davo99 said  The gap at the top of this one isn't a lot either but now there is a clear passage all the way to the Ceiling.


I need to look at ours too. It's in a cavity and could do with setting up properly.


  Quote  would be a lot better off if they showed us how to fill out a tax form and job applications which would be skills everyone would need and use throughout their lives.


Exactly, makes a lot of sense. The other thing I missed out on was to learn to type. I'm still doing my two finger shuffle and backspace. Hopeless.

My younger brother did typing   ...  and even my dad learned typing and book keeping at the same school when he went through.


  Quote  Every day for 7 years I drove them the 30 min there and 45 Back home even though the school was less than 12 Km away.


This school is across the other corner of the town and apart from a km and a half at 50km/hr at each end, the rest is 80km/hr  ...  so a fairly easy round trip.


  Quote  Been a bad week physically and mentally so it can wait.  One of my very few remaining teeth has been giving me grief


Yeah, it's amazing what can take us out for a while  ...  and crook teeth are the worst. Sorry to hear you're having trouble with them and hope you can get in to have it fixed quickly.


  Quote  Might figure patching up the old model isn't worth it and shed be better just trading me in on a newer more study model with hair that goes faster.


Nah  ...  isn't it "better the devil you know rather than the devil you don't"???


  Quote  Making a VERY worthwhile heating contribution! The big system is going to be cranking the heat on the sunny days and around the beginning and ends of winter for sure.


Yes, definitely. We had that month in the middle where it was pretty hit and miss  ...  but the months before and since have been pretty amazing. Definitely worthwhile.


  Quote  We have been getting lows of 3's and 4's over night so while the days are plenty warm, the nights are still very winter like.


I'd never paid much attention before  ...  but it makes a huge difference on really cold nights compared to milder ones  ...  to the inside temp by morning.

I'll still probably need some sort of additional heat supply for early mornings after those colder nights  ...  but it doesn't take too long for this thing to start to make a difference.


  Quote  I will try to find some over the summer, mis-fuel, old fuel etc but to have that at the main heat source will take plenty of Juice.  I'll also be collecting and stockpiling Veg this summer as well.  That's the more viable option for me but if I get the diesel, that's an assett as well.


Great idea, just be on the lookout and grab whatever you can.


  Quote  Looking on fleabay, I noticed the price of the heaters has come down to  just $90!
Pretty sure last summer they were around 70 so I'll keep an eye out and see if the do get cheaper and buy another.


I should grab one too  ...  for my main shed. The elect workshop is ok as I can keep my work area warm if I'm desperate  ...  it's just the main shed is freezing in winter and it would make it a lot easier to decide to go out to do some work at nights if I had a means to take some of the chill off. I'll keep my eyes open for one.
Cheers,  Roger
 
Davo99
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Posted: 05:18pm 17 Sep 2021
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  rogerdw said  

Exactly, makes a lot of sense. The other thing I missed out on was to learn to type. I'm still doing my two finger shuffle and backspace. Hopeless.


Hmm, Funny, I have pretty much taught myself to type. I'm sure I'm doing it all wrong as far as typing goes but  I use all the fingers on both hands and can certainly goa lot faster than hunt and peck with 2 Fingers.  When one types as much crap as I do, spose there has to be some benefit and learnt efficiency.

I wonder if kids get any training at all? With the amount done on keyboards now, I'd say it's almost essential.



  Quote    and even my dad learned typing and book keeping at the same school when he went through.


While I still have to walk my father though how to print a PDF for the 40th time, and I'm not kidding!, he's quite a reasonable Typist from his younger days using typewriters  and very early computers in management roles and searching part Numbers and products. Takes him far longer to think what he's going to say in an email than knock it out when it's dictated to him.


  Quote   Sorry to hear you're having trouble with them and hope you can get in to have it fixed quickly.


I went to the Dentist shortly after my last reply.  Had enough experience to know it wasn't going to be fun and it was everything I was scared of and then some.
Tooth Broke more and I wasn't going to stuff around with root canals.  Told the guy to take it out with a pretty good idea of what I was in for.

IT seems my tolerance to anaesthetic is  getting more resilient and the guy was pumping the stuff in and it wasn't doing much. I said after about the 5th hit,  I said I know what your Thinking, How much ship to I have to pump into this guy to shut him the hell up?  Dentist and nurse really cracked up over that one. Pizzing themselves for about a full Minute.

In the end he said I'm going to have to give you a shot direct into the nerve it's going to.... I said I Know exactly what it's going to be. I said to the Nurse, please excuse my bad words, Right, get on with it.  It's like stepping on a nail that goes right through your foot only it goes in your head and out your foot.

Then he had trouble getting it out as I also thought was going to be the case. He ended up taking some bone out to get the thing to finally give up. He had to cut the gums up a bit of course so I'll have some stitches in it a while as well but they don't worry me.

Said to the guy when it was done, that was the best workout I have had for a while. He said me too!  I said sorry to be a pain in the arse.  He said mate, you are fine, he said not many people would have handled it well as You did. I said I thought I was being a Pussy!  He said that was the hardest ones I have done in a while. Nurse said that was the hardest one I have done ever!  Oh goody for me!!  

Anyway, was feeling like a lot of pressure when I got home and it was bleeding a bit as expected But it's calmed down really well and better than I thought it would.
Have to be careful with it a few days but I think will be OK.  
Have to go and have my denture re modelled now.  5 Teeth left.  I hope they aren't as bad in total to get out as this one on it's own was.

Last time I had 10 out in one go and wasn't nearly as bad as this one!


  Quote  
Nah  ...  isn't it "better the devil you know rather than the devil you don't"???


Trouble is I think she knows this old devil too bloody well now and probably had enough.


  Quote  
I'd never paid much attention before  ...  but it makes a huge difference on really cold nights compared to milder ones  ...  to the inside temp by morning.


Absolutely! Seen that in the last couple of weeks. One night I think was 15 or something. House stayed quite cozy.  Then a couple of days later we had a Frost. Could feel that laying in bed. Wasn't just us, when the dog comes up and wants to be cuddled, you know shes after some warmth.  Normally shes at the foot of the bed and won't come up if you call her so at least I knew it was not just my Imagination it got cool.



  Quote  I should grab one too  ...  for my main shed. The elect workshop is ok as I can keep my work area warm if I'm desperate  ...  it's just the main shed is freezing in winter and it would make it a lot easier to decide to go out to do some work at nights if I had a means to take some of the chill off. I'll keep my eyes open for one.


No need for one of them for a Shed heater!  Probably useless for that size area anyway. They only do 4Kw and I can assure you, that won't do jack for the hangar you have.  
I'll tell you how to build an oil burner heater that will have the whole shed 30oC in an hour ( or less) if you want!!

Just use old engine or Veg oil, much cheaper than Diesel, its free. Can use anything liquid and Flammable actually EXCEPT Petrol.

That last Draft heater Vid I did would be Fine or there are some forced air heaters that really crank out the fire.  Build one into a 44 gallon drum and you could melt snow off the roof no problems.  Doing shed heaters are so easy when you have room to separate it from flammables and not worried about a little smell if it happens which is only on start up.  You already have some blowers that can be used. The rest is pretty much scrap.

A good length of duct/ stove pipe would be good. I cringe when I see people with shed heaters that let the  flue gasses go straight up or  have a pipe right behind the heater going through the wall. There is a LOT of heat in the flu gas and you want to run it at an angle IN the shed for as long as possible before sending it out so the max heat is transferred where you want it in the enclosed area not going straight out trying to Combat winter all on it's own.

I'm hoping to have enough room in my shed to put a heater when I'm done Cleaning up.
I'll have it so warm I'll just set up the spare bed up there and never come down.
There is already the Sewer Pipe up there so all I need to do is install a throne and I'm set.
 
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