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Forum Index : Solar : inverters expect failure at 15 years
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| michael Regular Member  Joined: 06/12/2008 Location: AustraliaPosts: 40 |
A Government study by America interviewing all major inverter manufacturers. Interesting most expect 15 year lifespan is considered good/great. Capacitors seem to be the weakness. Something to factor in when buying your system,,,, •Xantrex, Managing Director: “Why make inverters with a longer life when the customer is better off replacing the inverter every 10 years or so anyway? The inverters available in 10 years will be better products with higher efficiency.”•SMA America, President: “Why focus on higher reliability? Our customers worry only about first-cost. In any case, it’s more cost-effective to just replace the inverter in 10 years.”•Sustainable Energy Technologies, Director of Operations: “A 20-year lifetime for PV inverters is at least10 years away.”•Mitsubishi: “A 20-plus-year life for inverters is impossible. Some parts of the inverters would need to be replaced over such an extended period.”•SMA, Head of Solar:“A 20-year lifetime is not possible.”•Fronius, Head of Sales (Germany):“Inverter MTBF may reach 12 years by 2015. A 20-year lifetime can’t be achieved.”•GE Energyindicated that 20-year life would not be practical without a significant impact oncost. A 15-year life is more reasonable, and that should be reviewed based on life-cycle costs impact.•Contrary to statements made in a recent Photon International article (April 2005), manufacturers and other industry experts we spoke to do not believe that capacitorimprovements alone will result in inverters that can “keep going for more than 20 years.” |
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Gizmo Admin Group  Joined: 05/06/2004 Location: AustraliaPosts: 5019 |
My first job was with Telecom, and I started as an apprentice in the radio department where I was posted at a regional repeater site. One of my duties was to replace the electrolytic capacitors in the rack power supplies. Most of the equipment I worked on was older than I was, and it was all performing as good as new. My typical day involved swapping out a power supply with a spare, then replace all the electrolytic caps with Rifa caps ( expensive ), reseating all the connectors, checking for dry joints and removing and refitting all seatsinks with new heat transfer compond. I learned that preventive maintenance is needed with just about anything electronic. These days anything I have thats over 5 years old gets pulled apart, caps replaced, heat sinks re-greased, dust blown out, etc. I have several computers over 10 years old and a couple of color TV's over 20 years old, all working like new, even if they dont look it. I also have a few old valve radio's, 60 years old and still working, with new caps. Maybe what these inverter companies should offer is a 5 or 10 year maintenance service. I know I would prefer to buy of a supplier that offers such a service. Glenn The best time to plant a tree was twenty years ago, the second best time is right now. JAQ |
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GWatPE Senior Member  Joined: 01/09/2006 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2127 |
Hi Glenn, The low reliability of caps was demonstrated to me in the inverter I just repaired. A simple fix with the right tools. I would also support a service exchange system. It seems the throw away set is becoming more entrenched with the comments above from the big players. Gordon. PS: I suspect that doubling of the cap size may result in a 4 fold life expectancy of the cap components, but then something else may break with higher peak currents that would be available. become more energy aware |
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| michael Regular Member Joined: 06/12/2008 Location: AustraliaPosts: 40 |
I am sure a lot of customers would be put off if you told them there is a good chance they need to buy a new inverter within 15 years at say $2000. My friends who have a PV system are of the understanding that the inverter last 25-30 years without replacing. Same as the panels. I wont say shock, but they seem extemely surprised to hear their inverter may fail at say 10 years or even 6 out of warranty. SMA in australia give 5 years standard. In america its 10 years standard, and the inverter after exchange rate is cheaper. Gwatpe-from the report I read the service part you mentioned was discussed/suggested by the government report, as in offering a service at say 10. and 15, 20 years etc. The manufacturers did not seem interested. SMA is by far the biggest player having 40-60 percent of the World market. Depending on locality. Amazing Fronius only expect 12 years life by 2015. Another suggestion to the industry was that the capacitors in new models could slot in and out easily and be a simple relacement item. I shall try to find the full report. Very interesting reading. |
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sPuDd Senior Member Joined: 10/07/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 251 |
I'm of the same thinking as Gizmo. Treat all electronics the same as you would a mechanical device and give it regular maintenance. I also think a manufacturer would benefit from a service exchange system. Perhaps as part of the original warranty, like an 'Extended Warranty'. Sending old units back would allow firmware upgrades, maybe even board patches for know problems etc. Surely this feature would set one brand apart from others... sPuDd.. It should work ...in theory |
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Tinker Guru  Joined: 07/11/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1904 |
Glenn, while I agree with your maintenance regime, these days it is also a question of practicality. Unsoldering an aging capacitor from a multilayer PCB may result in consequential damage to the tracks and, as parts are getting ever smaller, may prove rather difficult to do. With regard to your valve equipment, these things have a limited life due to heater failure and replacement is the only maintenance which in the case of a colour TV tube may me totally uneconomical. I recently dumped a 20+ year old colour TV which was working but had problems keeping the brightness & contrast setting between switch ons. I frankly could not be bothered to trace that fault - I do have the service manual BTW - but replaced it with a digital set that can receive all the extra channels without the hassle of a set top box. Klaus |
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| sPuDd Senior Member Joined: 10/07/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 251 |
I suspect the issue there Tinker, is economy. Its not worth repairing a 20yo CRT TV mass produced and designed for a domestic short life market. (Unless it was a collectors item) Also, as you pointed out its technology is almost at an end with the advent of digital TV. An 20yo sinewave inverter does the same job today as it did 20 years ago, and may be quite expensive to replace. Also, you can go without TV, but if you live off grid and your power system goes down.... sPuDd.. It should work ...in theory |
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| michael Regular Member Joined: 06/12/2008 Location: AustraliaPosts: 40 |
so, is extending the warranty worth it ?? SMA have standard 5 year warranty in australia. 10 is standard in america, The comapny i had my install with offers another 5 years on the SMA inverters for $550. Seeing as there is a fair chance a problem will come up after the ten year mark maybe not. What do others think ? $550 is also a bit to put towards any repair, but from what I read about SMA and fronius inverters, the fault is nearly always the capacitors which are expensive to replace. Another company my sister had her sma with charged $330 for the warranty extension, which she took. Seems a fair price,. but will you stay in your house for 10 years also ?? cheers |
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| GWatPE Senior Member Joined: 01/09/2006 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2127 |
The replacement cost for caps in the 1500W SunPower Solartechique grid inverter, 2000uF @ 350V [not from the junk pile, but new] would be around $200. These caps have 5pins and the PCB is 10oz DSpth. Had to use the heated solder sucker to avoid damaging the PCB. This task is not for the 50W iron. The $330 extended warranty sounds prettty fair, as long as the company is around when needed. Gordon. become more energy aware |
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| petanque don Senior Member Joined: 02/08/2006 Location: AustraliaPosts: 212 |
Would I sound like an economist is I suggested that the company has information on the reliability if the machines and this suggests that on average they will need around $550.00 of repairs (less profit) how much profit they make is the real issue? Like any insurance it provides piece of mind and peoples attitude to risk is a personal thing. How much will inverters be worth in 10 to 20 years time? If they are like other electronic devices such as computers or DVD players they you may get a 1 Kw inverter for surprisingly little. It may well be that the made by robot in India inverter with a warrantee is very competitive compared to the repaired by hand in Australia old inverter that would have minimal or no warrantee. |
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| michael Regular Member Joined: 06/12/2008 Location: AustraliaPosts: 40 |
petanque don your partly right I think. Inverter retail mark up is huge already, so if they were made in a production line in china Im sure the cost would reduce a lot as well. SMA it seems come from a well made human factory in germany. One company in australia retails the sunny boy 1100 w for $2700, others $2100 One worldwide Company I know buys the same inverter in very large bulk lots for $850. Now thats a big mark up with lots of room to move. Our friend paid $1100 for his as part of a deal with others to buy three units., so it is interesting. The american Governmnent report on inverters said it expected cost of the unit to half by 2015 if not sooner. The same inverters are already a lot cheaper in the states with a 10 year warranty. I am sure if the Goverment grant was not there the price would change a lot also. |
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| petanque don Senior Member Joined: 02/08/2006 Location: AustraliaPosts: 212 |
If you bulk price of $850.00 is correct if solar panels become mainstream (the majority of dwellings have a solar system) I will suggest that you may be able to get a 1Kw inverter for less than $500!!! I will also suggest that they will also all be at least 98% efficient with several inputs so you can run wind turbines or other things from them. I wonder if there will eventually be standard plugs for the things so they are considered a consumer replaceable item. I had studied economics several years before I realised that economics is more about fortune telling rather than money. |
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| sPuDd Senior Member Joined: 10/07/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 251 |
petanque don, I like the idea of a standard connector set. Come to think of it, the electric forklift and cleaner industry does this already. They are know as 'Anderson Connectors'. I'd think they would be ideal off the shelf devices to be factory fitted. And they come in a wide range of sizes for different currents, so this would also stop people trying to plug a 1KW inverter in where a 2KW one goes. I hope the manufacturers are reading these forums. sPuDd.. It should work ...in theory |
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| windlight Guru Joined: 03/03/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 331 |
Capacitors are rated for 2-3000 hours service, which is probably the reason they are the week link, 24 X 365 = 8760 hours/year. If they were mounted on a separate circuit board, with suitable connectors they would be much more serviceable, but that would be too simple. I'm on my 3rd set in my 3Kw SEA in 7 years. Allan "I like this place and willingly could waste my time in it" - (Act II, Scene IV). |
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| michael Regular Member Joined: 06/12/2008 Location: AustraliaPosts: 40 |
some great inverters out there now effeciency wise.-quote-The MOSFET-based inverters operate at a maximum efficiency of 98.5 percent and dissipate 30 to 50 percent less waste energy than rival silicon transistors, which operate at less than 98 percent efficiency. Sunny boy central by SMA now has 98 percent effeciency. But re making capacitors easy to change I dont think it will happen. SMA have by far the biggest research budget re inverters and by far the biggest market share World wide, some 60 percent, and have no plans to change things, rather lower their production cost etc. Latronics is a good cheaper inverter, but besides being cheaper and Australian it still will fail due to capicitors (and other things)like most others. Hence no one wants to hand out longer warranty than 10 years. They know they will fail. |
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| michael Regular Member Joined: 06/12/2008 Location: AustraliaPosts: 40 |
windlight,is SEA paying for the warranty repairs.?? I would change to SMA after the second failure. |
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| windlight Guru Joined: 03/03/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 331 |
Michael, the first was under warranty, 2nd not, my other inverter is a Latronics nearly 12 months old. Soon will have a latest Selectronics unit so we will see what is best. Allan "I like this place and willingly could waste my time in it" - (Act II, Scene IV). |
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| petanque don Senior Member Joined: 02/08/2006 Location: AustraliaPosts: 212 |
On average isn’t there only 12 hours a day sunshine (more in summer less in winter) Wouldn’t capacitor life also depend on how heavily it is loaded? Does a 500V capacitor last longer if it is running at 200V or 450V? The average mortgage lasts 7 years so many systems may not be owned by the original owner once they are coming out of warrantee. |
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| windlight Guru Joined: 03/03/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 331 |
On average hours of sunshine yes but an inverter can be in service for 24 hours a day. The way I understand it yes loading is one factor in capacitor life. Rated and operating voltage is another. Not sure how the average mortgage relates to a discussion on inverter life expectancy. allan "I like this place and willingly could waste my time in it" - (Act II, Scene IV). |
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| GWatPE Senior Member Joined: 01/09/2006 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2127 |
None of the inverters[grid connect type] are in service at night. My 24V battery inverter is another matter. Gordon. become more energy aware |
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