Home
JAQForum Ver 20.06
Log In or Join  
Active Topics
Local Time 00:40 09 Aug 2020 Privacy Policy
Jump to

Notice. New forum software under development. It's going to miss a few functions and look a bit ugly for a while, but I'm working on it full time now as the old forum was too unstable. Couple days, all good. If you notice any issues, please contact me.

Forum Index : Other Stuff : Diesel engine muffler?

     Page 3 of 3    
Author Message
Davo99
Guru

Joined: 03/06/2019
Location: Australia
Posts: 519
Posted: 06:32am 21 Aug 2019
Copy link to clipboard 
Print this post

I didn't realise they were cast iron Cylinders. only small engine I have seen with a cast iron Barrel was the old pre '84 Victa engines. The GOOD victa engines before they went to that power Torque crap design.  I so miss the sound of those 2 strokes of a weekend. They were a sound of Australia.

For my lister, I used a Subaru Radiator turned sideways to have the ports top and bottom and thermosphere the cooling system. It's surprising how effective that is. I T'd the top hose at the highest point up to a 25L drum of water to act as an expansion tank and see the system was always bled of air. I used a single 3/4 Hose and that tank would get very warm and quite quick which surprised me.

The radiator had twin fans and even one was way overkill. I used a tail light globe as a resistor in series with the fan  which slowed it right down and it was still more than enough cooling.  All that would have been needed would be to mount the exhaust a couple of feet back from the rad and aim it toward it.  The movement of the air through the rad would have been enough and if the air was warm would not have mattered in the least.  Very Cheap to get a couple of thermostat boards these days and wire them into a fan.

If one wanted something more compact or to Co-gen the setup and use the warm air, a car heater core and fan would be ideal.  I was talking to a mechanic mate recently and he told me that at a couple of factory training sessions he went to they told him on average a car heater can provide 30% of the total cooling capacity. That's 30HP even on a 4 Cyl car. If one looks at how dense most heater cores are, that is very easy to believe.

A Lister has about a Foot of separation between the upper and lower cooling ports and I think the greater the height difference the better.
I believe the thermosyphon on my engine worked as well as it did because I paid a lot of attention to getting the inlet of the engine aligned level with the outlet of the rad and the outlet of the engine was rising all the way to the level of the inlet of the rad where it T'd with no dips and at a 45o angle.  Getting those bottom levels right is critical to good thermostatic Flow.

If one was building their own head and had a 3/4 Aluminium pipe rising straight up a foot welded to the head, it would help make the thermosyphon very effective in itself.
 
Ironmaiden
Regular Member

Joined: 09/07/2019
Location: United States
Posts: 53
Posted: 03:11pm 21 Aug 2019
Copy link to clipboard 
Print this post

  Davo99 said  
  Ironmaiden said  Mate, I haven't done any serious load testing thus far.


Well that's the first thing I'd be doing. If you want 1500W out of it you need to be doing your testing with at least 1000W on the thing.  You may find that you work on getting one setup right then find it's no good at the load you want. These things are very different loaded and unloaded.


  Quote  
I have been experimenting with the different connection schemes and have found that with my 50uf X3 cap bank, that I cannot get the generator to excite when the caps are connected star with the windings in star.
Have you tired increasing the Revs?
On my motor I used to have to give the engine a big rev or 3 and then you could hear the field start to saturate and the thing come up to power by the high pitched whine.
Was easy to tell as with a multimeter.

Speeding up the IMAG helps to energise it and if that does not work try flashing it with a 12V battery.


  Quote  
Marathon Electric makes Imag sets for grid tie operation. The wiring schemes in their document are what I am experimenting with at this time.



You do realise the application they are applying them to is not as stand alone generators or used with caps but rather to back feed and correct power factor in industrial applications where they get charged more for their electricity of the don't keep the power factor under control?  These are wired straight to the mains with no caps or form of excitation other than the grid power.
This is a main function of the big motor I'm working on and the connection is just as one would have the thing wired as a motor.



I think my 4KW generator would be happy with a constant 1500 watt load on it. At that wattage the generator would be producing optimal output performance.

I agree but again I would be trying to do your testing with a load as the unloaded behaviour will be miles different. No use coming up with a setup and spending a lot of time on it only to find it's not workable when you actually come to use it.

Mate, Serious load testing would require more than my 1/2hp repulsion start induction motor can handle. It's still well in the triple digits outside right now. Any testing with an engine will have to wait for cooler weather. The Southern USA is a hot humid horrible place in July, August, September. Doesn't start cooling off until October.


I do realize the Marathon Imag's are for direct connection. The connections in the diagram are for American 9 and 12 lead motors. Doesn't matter if the thing is being run as a motor or generator. Those are our standard connections.

Robert
 
Warpspeed
Guru

Joined: 09/08/2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 3332
Posted: 10:23pm 21 Aug 2019
Copy link to clipboard 
Print this post

Dave,

This Wisconsin has a very large cast iron crankcase, with a finned cast iron barrel bolted on top with four studs. The crank spins on two enormous ball bearings.
Physically its quite well put together and very strong.

I may never actually do any of this, but right now its just something to think about.
I will probably eventually just get a more suitable water cooled engine.

As I already have an unlimited supply of natural gas out in the shed, whatever I get will definitely end up with spark ignition, even if its a Lister !
Edited 2019-08-22 08:26 by Warpspeed
Cheers, Tony.
 
Davo99
Guru

Joined: 03/06/2019
Location: Australia
Posts: 519
Posted: 11:28pm 21 Aug 2019
Copy link to clipboard 
Print this post

  Warpspeed said  Dave,

This Wisconsin has a very large cast iron crankcase, with a finned cast iron barrel bolted on top with four studs. The crank spins on two enormous ball bearings.
Physically its quite well put together and very strong.


I can only ever remember working on 1 Wisconsin and it was a typical briggs type aluminium setup.
It's a wonder an all cast Iron engine wasn't a lot more popular. The Briggs engines were absolute garbage, how anyone ever thought they were decent and they gained a following is beyond me.

An all cast engine would have been strong, repairable ( especially if it has a separate bore) and last a good long while.  Briggs had an aluminium bore and then sleeved the IC ( industrial/ commercial) series with an iron liner to give the things some longevity.
Never saw a Briggs with roller bearings although I believe they have been using them since I stopped mucking round with small engine repair.
The Briggs had the crank and cam also running straight on the aluminium housing. They could wear that much that you couldn't set the points because of the crank slop was greater than the points gap.

That Wisconsin sounds like an engine built for work and to last.
Briggs were built with the sole aim of keeping production cost under $5.

I bought a JB ride on without a deck cheap for towing stuff round the yard. I built a little trailer by shoving a couple of car wheels and a draw bar on it save pulling the backside out of my 30 Yo perfect Honda.

The best part about the JD is  the Kohler engine. Never had one before but the thing is brilliant.  Starts easy, runs smooth, OHV, Oil filter, made with some thought and pride rather than to just get the thing out the door and be sold to the mechanically clueless. It would be quiet enough to run as a generator.  It's 15 Hp and very torquey as well. Pretty sure it will outlast the rest of the machine it's attached to which I have already had to weld back together and brace up.
Another US name that from my perspective relies a lot more on blind patriotism than quality for it's reputation.

Pitty the Chinese don't do any larger watercooled petrol engines, not that I have seen anyway. My experience with the air-cooled models has all been very good.
 
Warpspeed
Guru

Joined: 09/08/2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 3332
Posted: 04:04am 22 Aug 2019
Copy link to clipboard 
Print this post

Wisconsin S12d crank (same as mine) picture off the internet.
The main bearings are eye poppingly huge.
These came in various different bore sizes, the S12 was the 12Hp version.



This Wisconsin has both a bolt on cast iron barrel, and cast iron head.
My head is aluminium.


Cheers, Tony.
 
Davo99
Guru

Joined: 03/06/2019
Location: Australia
Posts: 519
Posted: 08:43am 22 Aug 2019
Copy link to clipboard 
Print this post

Thats quality!
Aluminium head would be better than cast as well. Much better thermal conductivity.
If you did a water cooled head you could muck around with the squish chamber and bump the compression especially if you were using gas.

Clearly there aren't going to be any stress issues with the bottom end.
 
Warpspeed
Guru

Joined: 09/08/2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 3332
Posted: 08:51pm 22 Aug 2019
Copy link to clipboard 
Print this post

I think the first thing to do is fix the main alternator, the field windings both need replacing.
Its a 240v machine and if I just rectify the output directly, should be able to get 100v or so of dc out of it at quite low rpm. I can then run it like an inverter alternator using my main Warpverter, or just use it to recharge the 100v battery.
Cheers, Tony.
 
Ironmaiden
Regular Member

Joined: 09/07/2019
Location: United States
Posts: 53
Posted: 10:13pm 22 Aug 2019
Copy link to clipboard 
Print this post

A diesel powered Imag, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xO4GmhOHsdU

Robert
Edited 2019-08-23 08:14 by Ironmaiden
 
Warpspeed
Guru

Joined: 09/08/2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 3332
Posted: 10:53pm 22 Aug 2019
Copy link to clipboard 
Print this post

Robert, the exact same problem as with all the other attempts.

Under no load, voltages rises over 300v which would kill most appliances.
Under load, the voltage falls down as low as 150v.

And its not because either his diesel or his three phase motor are wimpy little things. The voltage regulation problem is a fundamental limitation of IMAG because you are dealing with resonance.
Cheers, Tony.
 
Ironmaiden
Regular Member

Joined: 09/07/2019
Location: United States
Posts: 53
Posted: 11:54pm 22 Aug 2019
Copy link to clipboard 
Print this post

Really shows the need for the load controllers used on these generators when working as micro hydro power generators.

Robert
 
Warpspeed
Guru

Joined: 09/08/2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 3332
Posted: 12:15am 23 Aug 2019
Copy link to clipboard 
Print this post

It will be a lot worse with a micro hydro than a diesel, because the driving speed will change unpredictably as well as the load.

IMAG can work pretty well charging a battery, because the charging current and load increases very steeply with a rising voltage. And that stabilises the voltage.

For anything else, IMAG is just a whole bunch of problems.  If it can be fixed at all, its going to be neither cheap or simple which is the whole justification for IMAG in the first place.

Might as well pony up the dollars and buy a proper voltage regulated single or three phase alternator plus the matching voltage regulator that goes with it.
Cheers, Tony.
 
Ironmaiden
Regular Member

Joined: 09/07/2019
Location: United States
Posts: 53
Posted: 02:03am 23 Aug 2019
Copy link to clipboard 
Print this post

Mate, I would agree to a point.

Since induction motors are cheap they still make a good starting point for a generator. The way to fix the problem is to do what several have done in the wind turbine world. Either make a new rotor or machine the existing rotor to accept permanent magnets. Then one would just need to come up with a reliable PM voltage regulator. Frequency could be dependent on engine RPM for diesel. The hassle is in finding the correct magnets and in the electronics. For some it might also be a hassle to find a machine shop to do the work necessary. I don't have a lathe so would have to hire out the machining work for example.

Robert
Edited 2019-08-23 12:16 by Ironmaiden
 
Ironmaiden
Regular Member

Joined: 09/07/2019
Location: United States
Posts: 53
Posted: 02:27am 23 Aug 2019
Copy link to clipboard 
Print this post

Some of us are members of the field lines forum and have probably seen the induction motor to permanent magnet conversions by Zubbly, Sparweb and others. It's a shame zubbly isn't with us anymore. He was the pioneer of these motor conversions.

Some of Zubbly's files are still available for viewing. https://www.fieldlines.com/index.php?topic=129311.0 Sadly with the passage of time some of his pictures and discussions have been lost to the ages as forums come and go and software updates take their toll.

The other power site had a article on doing a pm from IM.

Finding these curved magnets though is a real pita. https://www.otherpower.com/otherpower_experiments_motor_convert.html

I've wondered about the magnets from automotive starter motors? They seem like they would work for the correct size motor rotor. Finding what size hp induction motor has the ideal rotor diameter might prove an interesting challenge though.

Robert
Edited 2019-08-23 12:39 by Ironmaiden
 
Davo99
Guru

Joined: 03/06/2019
Location: Australia
Posts: 519
Posted: 03:46am 23 Aug 2019
Copy link to clipboard 
Print this post

  Ironmaiden said  A diesel powered Imag, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xO4GmhOHsdU


And after trying to use all manner of high end electrical engineering and testing, including trying to manage the thing with twin arduinos and a lot of programming, He gave up and paid 1950 Euro and bought a proper generator.
This guy and what looks like his mates are no hacks just going by the gear they had alone.  Seems they were unable to stablise that thing even with a 3 Kw load.

There was plenty of driving power in that diesel engine and plenty of reactive power in that motor which if I understand correctly was 45Kw.

The fact he replaced the IMAG with a proper Generator I think speaks volumes.

   said  Ironmaiden The way to fix the problem is to do what several have done in the wind turbine world. Either make a new rotor or machine the existing rotor to accept permanent magnets.


Then you no longer have an IMAG, you have a PMA. Two totally and utterly Different things. Which one you want?
PMA's are  well sorted and known technology which is a very Viable thing but is mainly used for battery charging.
From what I understood from what you have said preciously,  you wanted about 2Kw ac so you could plug in a fridge , Tv, Lights etc.

You seem to be hopping around all over the place and moving the goal posts all over the field.
IMAG is fraught with difficulties to the point in your stated goals of being completely impractical.  PMA works very well but does not meet your previously stated goals of what you want to do with it.

Perhaps you could give us an update/ reminder of exactly what it is you are trying to achieve here?
 
Davo99
Guru

Joined: 03/06/2019
Location: Australia
Posts: 519
Posted: 03:48am 23 Aug 2019
Copy link to clipboard 
Print this post

Something screwy is going on with my posts and ability to read threads again.
 
Warpspeed
Guru

Joined: 09/08/2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 3332
Posted: 06:55am 23 Aug 2019
Copy link to clipboard 
Print this post

  Davo99 said  
  Warpspeed said  
I have been toying with the idea for a while of brining in some Gen heads from  china.
I'd probably go for the STC's what are the 3 phase variants and widely reported to be much better made than the single phase ST models.

Looking at the Prices, something around the 17/18 KW output would be what I'd want. That would allow one to get an easy and under stressed 5 Kw out of each phase. There is literally a few $$ price difference between one output and the next one up so may as well go that bit bigger. Besides, the bigger the head the better the reactive power and stability.


If you ever do decide to take the plunge....
I (may) be interested in a three phase 230v generator head.
What sort very rough estimate of cost may we be looking at here ?
Cheers, Tony.
 
Warpspeed
Guru

Joined: 09/08/2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 3332
Posted: 06:59am 23 Aug 2019
Copy link to clipboard 
Print this post

  Davo99 said  
I have been toying with the idea for a while of brining in some Gen heads from  china.
I'd probably go for the STC's what are the 3 phase variants and widely reported to be much better made than the single phase ST models.

Looking at the Prices, something around the 17/18 KW output would be what I'd want. That would allow one to get an easy and under stressed 5 Kw out of each phase. There is literaly a few $$ price difference between one output and the next one up so may as well go that bit bigger. Besides, the bigger the head the better the reactive power and stability.


If you ever do decide to take the plunge, I might be interested in a 230v three phase flange mount generator head.

What sort of rough estimate of cost do you anticipate ?
Cheers, Tony.
 
     Page 3 of 3    
Print this page


To reply to this topic, you need to log in.

© JAQ Software 2020