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Davo99 Guru Joined: 03/06/2019 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1577
Posted: 02:52pm 02 Dec 2020
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I often take the piss out of the "Safety Sissys " on my YT channel as it's become nothing more than a Noble cause Bastardised for Profit These days on a range of levels. I am firmly of the belief of " Natural Selection" and NOT interfering with the process of the terminally stupid Fulfilling their destiny.
The amount of " Safety " devices and related impositions on things is really getting out of hand.
About 2 Years ago I purchased an Old John Deere Ride on Mower without a Deck. I got it from a Dealer whom had taken it as a trade in and couldn't get it going. I wanted it just for Dragging trees I had cut around and things like that without tearing the backside out of my Good, rare and valuable mower.
Cut a long one short I bought this thing for a song as parts only. Sales guy said it wasn't worth their time to get it going but upon getting it home, I could see some significant time had been spent on trying just that.
Looking on the net, I soon found this mower has 8, yes Eight, Lockouts on the thing that STOP the engine from starting. You have to be on the seat, bonnet can't be open,m deck can't be engaged, have to have your foot on the brake, foot off hydrostatic pedal And a few other things that STOP the thing from working.
I found that there was a Blue wire to the engine that was responsible for all these lockouts so I cut that and the thing fired up straight away and Ran Like a top. Even when Running, The thing won't cut in reverse unless an over ride is engages and a few other things.
Now I'm not against the blades stopping when you get off it, or not starting with the deck engaged, that's a good safety measure but all this other crap just makes the thing a pain to use.
The New John Deere Tractor of course being American made is also loaded with " Features" to interfere with the process of natural selection and Keeping idiots alive... for what ever reason anyone wants to do that.
The Tractor has a hydo static Transmission but you CAN'T start the thing unless it's in neutral. For those that are not familiar with this sort of system, It's a Fluid drive and the pedal is basically a Diverter valve that gives you forward or reverse by just rocking the pedal either way. It's a self centering Neutral so will not go anywhere and it fact is somewhat braked when in the neutral position.
This is an absolute safety HAZZARD! YOU Put the thing in neutral and Your Foot on the brake to start the thing. You then have to engage the Hydtostatic range selector ( Low, Medium, High) for the speed/ Torque you want. Bear in Mind, in practicality you are also usually lifting the Bucket and the 3 Point hitch before you move off so it's REAL easy to forget to put the thing in " Gear" before trying to move off.
The problem with that is if you are on any sort of Sloping Ground, second you disengage the park brake ( and On small hydros, it's just a park brake rather than a stopping brake) The thing will roll off very easily and hitting the brake is not terribly effective because the main braking is done by lifting off the forward / Reverse pedal or applying some opposite direction to retard progress.
The other thing is the brakes are just on the back so if you don't have the thing in 4WD, braking is only on the back anyway.
Both my father and I have nearly Dropped the thing into Ditches or into dams Forgetting to engage the drive range. It's deceptive for 2 Reasons.... 1, Manual tractors have better brakes and you don't tend to take them out of gear just like you don't a bus Or a truck when operating it or even having the thing parked. On a manual tractor you Press the Clutch to start it and lift off the brake and the Clutch to take off.
2, Other Tractors like the Kubota I have WILL start with the range selector engaged so again, You never really have it in neutral. You let off the park brake and the thing will hold itself on a reasonable slope until you hit the forward / Reverse pedal. If it does Creep, you can also hold it with the Hydro pedal rather than the brake.
This thing of not starting in range is Just more American/ JD arse covering but it IS Very potentially Dangerous in a practical way. If you forget to put it in range and it does Run away, it's hard to pull up particularly if you have a heavy implement hanging Off the 3 Point that's lifted and you have no Reverse Hydro braking. It's easy to give oneself a real scare and just wouldn't happen if you didn't have to deal with this Neutral start BS.
Today this " safety" Crap worked against us. I was down in the front paddock with the landscape Rake Trying to comb the unlimited rocks out of the Ground where we had Dozed and burned. New girls was working hard but Pulling well and I made about a Dozen passes with no problems.
Dad came down to Look and I got off the thing with is still in range ( not an effing problem on anything else) and of course it stopped. I cursed a bit and turned it off at the key and dad and I surveyed the pile of rocks I amassed.
Got back on it and the thing wouldn't start. Kept coming up on the LCD readout on the dash to " Shift to Neutral to start". Well we shifted the back and forth, turned it off and on, put the brake on and off, Lifted and dropped the seat again and made no difference. It was convinced it was still in " Gear". In the end I got the sh*ts and went all the way back up the shed, Grabbed some wire and the tow chains and Jumped in the ATV Tipper and went back down.
Jumped the starter and it turned but of course the injector pump solenoid wasn't engages so still didn't fire. IP solenoid isn't so easy to get at and it's very overcast so getting dark and turning into a right pain in the butt.
Dad said Guess well have to leave it here but that would create all sorts of problems even with the dealers coming out to see WTF is wrong with it. Probably a stuck switch but I couldn't find one ( could be internal on the HST Transmission) but again a real potential for Problems. If that had stuck when we were pushing up the big burning fire heap a few weeks back....
I got the chain, hooked it up to the 3 point and the tow bar on the ATV and slowly towed the thing in reverse back up to the shed which took forever. We were lucky in that I hadn't Dropped the bucket and lifted the big rake. If I had dropped either one, and I normally drop the bucket to " park" the thing, we could not have lifted them or moved the thing.
The trractor is about 8 weeks old and just clocked up 22 hours so still not even broken in. Dad will call the dealers to come out tomorrow to sort the thing and is going to ask them to either disconnect the Trans lockout or get them to tell him how to do it and give them a serve over it being a Goddam DANGER NOT a safety feature at all!
This isn't a regulation or requirement., It's just more pedantic arse covering by JD To protect idiots from themselves.
Everything you get now has a bunch of safety manuals and there were literally about 12 things to sign when we took delivery, 10 of which were all safety modules of things the sales guy had to run us though. at first we laughed because we though he was being funny till he explained, No, he HAD to run us though all this. Mate, you do see that 40 Yo tractor in the shed 20Ft away right that has NONE of this crap don't you?
Yeah, we knew it was his job but were more stunned that the guy would have to explain much of the stuff he was as if anyone could be that brain dead to do something that stupid in the first place but we had to sign off that we had been Instructed and understood.
This saftey Crap and OH&S has got so far out of hand.
The other thing ALL new tractors have to have is a self levelling Bucket. This is to stop idiots lifting the bucket back too High and tipping something back on themselves. Now the bucket has to remain level as you raise the loader. Total pain in the arse! You are trying to lift and curl at the same time and it won't work because the self levelling is cancelling out the curl. Have to stop, lift, then curl. Waste of time!
I know there is a liability factor with these products and equipment in particular but for sh*t's sake! If people are THAT stupid that they will do what half of these safety things are trying to prevent, there is no stopping them doing harm to themselves or others. it's getting so you can't use things with all this safety crap. I understand having to hold Lockout buttons and operate a 50 Ton industrial guillotine with your foot, that makes sense but this other crap they are coming up with all the time is moronic! Dads new ride on mower wouldn't cut in reverse. When he rang to tell them there was something wrong with it, they said no, that's a safety feature so you don't back over little kids or something. He said it doesen't stop me running over them and If I did not going to make much difference and besides, never any young kids round my place. 60 Sec and some stripped wire fixed that stupid problem.
My new power saw has a Guard on it that's so busy trying to keep your arms and fingers out, I'm at far more risk having to manually open the thing to get the wood in I want to cut. The old saw had a perfectly serviceable guard but this new one is ridiculous. I'm surprised the thing didn't come with a Rubber or foam cutting blade!
See what they say about the tractor tomorrow but I can see myself installing a couple of over ride switches for the IP solenoid and a starter switch as well as disabling the Trans lockout before we DO have an accident because of it!
Everything else we have WILL start in gear so this is nothing but a effing DANGER especially on the ground we have.
greybeard Senior Member Joined: 04/01/2010 Location: AustraliaPosts: 157
Posted: 11:50pm 02 Dec 2020
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So, not the best of days then?
Davo99 Guru Joined: 03/06/2019 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1577
Posted: 10:39am 03 Dec 2020
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Had many worse and it's not the end of the world but the ongoing frustration of dealing with the endless safety Devices and protecting the already brain dead is a much bigger problem.
I bought some Knives the other week. Some Good quality, expensive Kitchen Knives and a large Hunting Knife, also a good product I paid to have something decent and reliable. One would expect such things to be sharp. One would be disappointed as I was. Can't have sharp knives these days or some moron may cut themselves.
Fortunately a bit of time on the stone had the things much more like an ignorant person like I would expect. They will shave the hairs off your arm easily now which is kinda a minimum standard, not something to get over excited about.
The things have the potential, it's just not realised for " Safety" issues.
Georgen Guru Joined: 13/09/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 462
Posted: 07:16am 04 Dec 2020
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About a year ago bought coffee and got something barely warm. When I complained, comment was for safety reasons. I said that I do not want it and gave coffee back. Fellow said that he will make new one, but asked me not to tell anybody because it might cost him his job.
When spoke with friends about it, they all said that I was lucky.
Now have one more reason to brew my coffee home.George
Revlac Guru Joined: 31/12/2016 Location: AustraliaPosts: 961
Posted: 09:53am 04 Dec 2020
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Yes I agree, most of this safety stuff is beyond a joke, most of the local farmers use the older tractors or most basic ones they can get, if something goes wrong they can fix it in the field. Talking to a fella a while back, he has a farm and carts farm equipment for people sometimes, he delivered a new tractor for a farmer, it had all the new fancy gear, electronic and power everything, the fella ended up having trouble with it and the service technicians where there couldn't fix it either. The truck driver got a call from the farmer, he said "come get this bloody tractor and don't ever bring the F king thing back".
Have a farmliner that has start lockout on the gearbox, it is the only lockout and hasn't been a problem, I either leave it in gear to park it, or if working I just drop the implement, whatever is connected At the time. On other occasions I have done a roll start when the battery wasn't up to it, tested the start current on it the other week, 537A it pulled from the 500cca battery I had in it.
Much of the new hydraulic machinery, the hydraulics get locked out if something goes wrong and the loader or excavator is left with the bucket high in the air with no simple way to lower the thing, not safe stuck in the air like that.
The greenfield mower had a cutout switch under the seat, someone already fixed that one before I got to it, would be a PITA when towing many things around the yard a short distance.
As with most things Everyone gets punished because of one fool, or to protect one idiot, I remember seeing something on TV, a nob wanted to ban all chainsaws because his brother hurt himself with one.......Reckons everyone else is as stupid as he is.
The first chainsaw I ever used (I was about 10yr old) never had any safety gear, I new and could see what it could do and treated it accordingly, bought a new one a few years back and they wanted me to check through some safety thing...do you want to sell me the saw or not...give me the thing and I walked out.
Sure, everyone makes mistakes, that's humanity, ridiculous safety often Doesn't help and can lead to far worse things happening.
Humanity has always tried to make life easier, when those with power make it difficult......then wonder why we get Sh$t off about it. Edited 2020-12-04 19:55 by RevlacCheers Aaron Off The Grid
Davo99 Guru Joined: 03/06/2019 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1577
Posted: 11:15am 04 Dec 2020
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The thing that sh*ts me to tears with all this safety crap is when I HAVE hurt myself ( nothing remotely serious thankfully) it's always with something no one ever tells you about.
Learned my lesson getting dressed under ceiling fans. Was at the holiday house the other day getting dressed and instinctively looked up and moved from under the fan.
same with equipment. The problems I have had don't and can't have safety lockouts. It's a matter of learning from your mistakes and thinking things through.
What we have to realise and accept is some people are just not cut out for anything more dangerous than knitting and just don't have what you can't teach in the way of self preservation and seeing things through. I had a mate that bought a motorcycle to come riding with some friends and I. Man was not mechanical Minded at all and was clearly a danger to himself and others ( as well as an embarrassment) and the penny never dropped with it.
After about a year when things were getting worst not better through over confidence and NO improvement in skills or abilities, we told him, give up while you are still alive. He was reluctant and his Mrs decided she would start riding and was better than him about a month in than he'd learned in a year.
Some people just shouldn't do things because there is no way to make their lack of insight safe or protect them from themselves. Unfortunately I believe society is breeding more and more of these people because we are making people less and less self sufficient and when people try to do thinks for themselves, they lack the critical, natural and ingrained thinking skills to keep themselves out of danger.
I'm by no means a safety sissy but I do take the time to look round before doing things to see potential problems and do the mental arithmetic of what will happen when I do things. It can be as simple as I call it, " seeing where the forces ( usually gravity) is going to go and look at the strains and loads you are putting on things.
Taking just a moment to think things through BEFORE you do anything makes a lot of things that some see as risky completely safe and is far better practice than hoping some built in safety feature will protect you.
The stupid abilities of the inept will always outsmart the preventative measures of the brilliant...... and be a complete pain for everyone else who is not so incredibly stupid.
Clockmanfr Guru Joined: 23/10/2015 Location: FrancePosts: 427
Posted: 01:12pm 04 Dec 2020
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Dave, Here in France you will be pleased to know that safety is still down to the professional, and Insurance companies do not hammer the law down.
Here its seen as positive for my boys to do stuff, even if in other countries children should be protected with KID GLOVES mentality.
Here's all my 3 helping me slate tile the roof and fitting the wood lathes on a 2 storey building.
Here are some so called professional roofers finishing a roof, but here i draw the line at using angles from the ladder as a scaffold stage platform, FLIPPING HECK !!!.
Everything is possible, just give me time.
3 HughP's 3.7m Wind T's (14 years). 5kW PV on 3 Trackers, (10 yrs). 21kW PV AC coupled SH GTI's. OzInverter created Grid. 1300ah 48v.
Davo99 Guru Joined: 03/06/2019 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1577
Posted: 10:13pm 04 Dec 2020
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Your Boys will grow up to be the productive, practical types that contribute and are an asset to society rather than the " Other " type that are so prevalent now whom Frequent emergency wards for stupid accidents. They will have the good sense and awareness I was talking about for self preservation and automatically see the dangers in things without requiring stupid " Safety" functions on basic equipment.
I had both my kids using power tools before they were 10 Yo under supervision and with explanations of what to be careful of. My Daughter whom is a girly princess is also a lot more of a man than nearly all her male Friends. Only came home the other night complaining that SHE was the only one out of all her Male/ Female Friends that knew how to change the flat Tyre on a Friends car after they went out for Dinner.
I have never believed in Mollycoddling kids and always had mine doing things way ahead of their years. Both my kids were past reading the Kiddy books Before they started school that most don't even start till they get there. I started them Reading very early on and I could see they could do it. The standard Time frame for learning I think is far too conservative. They are capeable of much more. My Kids could read at high school level years before they were out of Primary school. I was always of the belief that with the internet particularly, If you can read, you can teach yourself anything.
I didn't do much with them on maths or language but reading was a HUGE priority as was getting out and getting their hands Dirty. My Son could Rebuild a 2 Stroke engine time he went to school. He had one like a Build it kit complete, even with piston rings he could get in. When he could do it with no trouble he built it with gaskets and we took it up the back, put it on a frame and fired it up. He was so surprised it was a real engine that ran and so proud of that.
You are doing a great job with your parenting too mate. Your Boys will thank you for that in years to come and make you very proud, no doubt about that!
As for the " Professionals", there is a difference between being a safety sissy and not having a sense of self preservation. I think these guys might be hedging toward the latter.
Warpspeed Guru Joined: 09/08/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 4406
Posted: 12:56am 05 Dec 2020
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Went to the beach yesterday with a mate and his 5 year old son.
There are some rather intimidating and much eroded sandstone cliffs behind the beach, and the little guy was climbing up down and having a great time. My mate said, if my wife was here she would be absolutely freaking out and never allow that. Too true, but dad know best...Cheers, Tony.
Davo99 Guru Joined: 03/06/2019 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1577
Posted: 12:16am 07 Dec 2020
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Dad rang me this morning a Bit Upset. Things tend to play on his mind and when he wants something of something done, he wants it done now. He operates the same way for others.
He rang the tractor place Twice and got the Run around. They said no one was available for 2 Weeks and they would have to take it back to the workshop to look at it. Dad said you mean to tell me no one can even come out here to look at the thing to determine what is wrong with it and if it needs to go Back?
They then told him it would be 2 weeks before anyone was available to look at it anyway. He said that's Christmas so I'll be without the thing another 2 weeks at least after that.
He said he has not been well again, I'll bet this was part of it playing on his mind. Pretty piss poor when they won't even come and look at a $30K machine that's not even 2 Months old yet. I don't think he'll be Buying another John Deere.
After I got off the phone to him I googled the problem. Load of hits came up straight away and the first one I looked at on a JD forum had threads on the same thing going back years.
There is a Lock out switch on the rear Diff, The wire to it just hangs basically and the connector gets Pulled out and the thing won't go. Rang Dad, he got down and had a look and sure enough, there are the 2 Plugs hanging disconnected. He plugged them back in, got up and the thing fired right up. He did it while I was on the phone and took an 82 Yo man less than 60 Sec to fix the problem. Probably took him 45 sec just to get down on the floor and back up again.
Yet another Stupid, useless pain in the arse " Safety" feature that causes more problems and IMHO, creates more danger than it saves by a long shot. I was using my tractor all weekend end which does not have this stupidity and I started and left it in gear when I got off it 20 Times and no problem what so ever.
I felt bad and apologised to Dad. I said I should have looked it up while I was up there, My fault. He got a bit annoyed and said it was nearly dark time we got it back up here, You had planned to leave to go home an hour before, it's a new machine and not your job to fix it, it's the dealer's but clearly they couldn't give a Fk. He said if ever you need a New Computer, get whatever you want and use my credit card number. I'd be stuffed if you didn't have one to look up how to fix all these things for me. Least he saw a funny side to it.
Sorry to any offended but the American pre occupation with " Safety" is ridiculous. The industry has completely Brainwashed people and made them think their personal safety is someone elses responsibility. It's NOT! It's got to the point where you can't even post a Vid on YT of hanging a picture on the wall without a bunch of safety Sissys start whining about putting on Gloves, safety Glasses and earmuffs.
Kubota are the main competitor to JD in these tractors in the states and everywhere else and Kubotas don't have this crap so I don't see why JD have it.
The JD forums showed this was a wide spread problem and had caused Dangerous situations. One guy related how he was using his tractor to clear a Fire break during a fire and this happened. Luckily his son was on another tractor and pulled the JD out of the way but could have easily caused the thing to be lost and the old guy to be harmed as he said he can't run far or fast anymore and relied on the tractor to get him out of harms way. Should have let the POS burn and claimed insurance and got something without more features to stop the thing from going that what it has to make it run.
The plug, wires or switch are easily torn out by sticks or undergrowth as they are underneath the machine and this is a very common fault that goes back years on this model. After it happened on one model one would think they would fix it on subsequent updates by putting a guard around the wire and switch.... or getting rid of the useless and needless thing in the first place.
Dad was talking about taping the wire up better and I said Pigs arse to that Idea. It's a 2 Pin Plug, it can be by passed by jumping the wires so I'll cut the connector off and join the wires up out the way and that will be that. Totaly pointless and stupid idea. I'll see if I can look up what other over the top safety sissy moronic ideas they have built in to save people from themselves which are a danger or inbuilt failure point and bypass them too.
JD and the dealers have certainly lost themselves a $50K + sale on the big tractor he wants. He was favouring the JD over the Kubota but that's gone out the window. After this episode and the one with the JD mower, he won't go near them again. The mower had a lockout that wouldn't allow the thing to cut in reverse and stopped the blades and the PTO had to be re engaged. Again, Just a JD safety sissy proclivity, not a requirement. I bypassed that after Dad was at wits end with it so it worked both ways like a proper machine should.
The thing was running like crap and I diagnosed a blocked jet in the carby which was impossible to get at to clean. The dealers said it was a common problem on them. JD wanted $500 for a new carb. I could buy a 4 Barrel holley or side draft webbers ( or a pair of them!) for less than that, I looked them up. Ended up ordering a carb from China, $47 Delivered with gaskets, fuel filter and clamps. The gaskets and the fuel Filter we replaced earlier were $31 from JD. Put the new carb on which took 5 Min, thing runs like a watch.
Can't say I'm real Impressed with this tractor at all. It's brand new and Mine is 13 Yo ( Kubota) and I'd take mine any day and that's not bias, the thing is just a better machine to use IMHO and does not have all this safety crap for one thing. It has sensible things like stop the Deck when you get off the seat but nothing that is overkill. The new ones are the same and haven't added in any thing else to stop the machine actually working.
I think Dad is regretting his decision to buy the thing a bit but I'm telling him we know what it is now, I'll fix it when I get back up there, all good. He asked me to Look at the other tractor I sent him a link to. I referred to a JD and he said No not that one, I'm not going to have another one of those things in the place again.
He also confided that he was reading the Warranty last Night and Highlighted was a line that said the customer was responsible for all Charges for Collecting a machine and taking it to the stealers and returning it. So the thing screws up and you still have to pay for the privilege of getting it made right. No wonder they were so damn keen to collect it! Both the Bucket and the Grinder on the 3 Point were Dropped so how they were going to get the thing on a trailer with them dropped or them up without the engine running would have been another trick. Probably have to bring some pump to pressurise the system which would have been a lot more mucking round than fixing the problem itself.
Would have been at least a Couple of hundred Bucks for some " technition " to take the thing back and plug a connector back in. Maybe THAT is the reason they put this stupid safety crap on them in the first place... More to go wrong and stuff up and more billable service hours or ancillary charges for the stealer ship. I said to Dad, If it ever does have to go back, Get peter your Tow truck mate to take it. Better give him the money than these slackers. He said I'll be doing that for sure.
I will be checking the orange tractor warranty for the new one he's ( now) decided on and if theirs is the same, there will be a clause in the contract as condition of sale that they Collect and Return the thing Free of charge and a service time for any repairs. Not like dad is 50 Km out of town, he's only 7 so not far at all.
Bout time we as a society stopped pandering to the stupid and greedy whom want to blame others for their ignorance and made people take more responsibility for themselves.
The way things are going we'll all be using Rubber knives to cut our dinner and have a highway speed of 40 KMh. Even then people would still manage to kill themselves in car accidents doing stupid things so may as well let them get it over and done with rather than drive everyone else Nuts with this safety crap all the time.
Notice. New forum software under development. It's going to miss a few functions and look a bit ugly for a while, but I'm working on it full time now as the old forum was too unstable. Couple days, all good. If you notice any issues, please contact me.
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