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Forum Index : Other Stuff : Over unity with hot water
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Downwind Guru  Joined: 09/09/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2333 |
I came across this on utube and found it an interesting prospect. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yh_-DUKQ4Uw&NR=1 Worth a look. Pete. Sometimes it just works |
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GWatPE Senior Member  Joined: 01/09/2006 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2127 |
it might be useful to others as well with non premium I-net connections that when posting a U-tube link, that at least some form of description of what might be on the end be given, by the person posting. I don't support being forced to download stuff, particularly U-tube files that tend to be large, and slow to view, except on a premium connection. Gordon. become more energy aware |
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KarlJ Guru Joined: 19/05/2008 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1178 |
water into steam using water hammer effect. claims to get 70% more energy out than in, uses a steel drum with a rotating billet inside with holes drilled into it, various depths and angles to cause cavitation in the water and a temp rise, right up to steam if you want. I think if it were legit, all power stations would use it and the world would have free energy. sadly this is never the case. cold fusion I dont think will happen in my lifetime, back to the future is a good ol watch none the less Luck favours the well prepared |
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| Downwind Guru Joined: 09/09/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2333 |
Sorry Gordon, i tend to forget in todays stone age there is still some caveman on dial up. Considering where ever you can get a cell phone reception you can now have high speed internet for no more than dialup charges why wouldnt you. I will try to give a better discription next time. I to questioned if 170% was fact or fiction. If i had a lathe i would be tempted to build a small unit to test the theory, as it is simple enough to work. Even if it only produced close to 100%, it would be a good instant water heater for electrical use. Pete. Sometimes it just works |
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| RossW Guru Joined: 25/02/2006 Location: AustraliaPosts: 495 |
I find that insulting in the extreme. While *I* have high speed internet (at a substantial cost I might add), as an ISP, I have MANY customers who still cannot get anything better than 14,400 dialup! Get out of the major population centres and the stinking pile of crap the government call a "world class mobile network" has more holes and blackspots than areas of coverage. Stop putting everyone else down and realize way too many of us DO NOT share your government subsidised broadband offerings. |
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| isaiah Guru Joined: 25/12/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 303 |
A lot of us here in America are on dial up due to that being the only option in the area or layed off work and cant afford the fast stuff. I takes me 1/2 hr to 45 minutes to download a 3 minute utube video. If it something I think I d like to see Ill start the down load and go do something else for a hour. Just give us a good description what the video is about. What we need to develop is bootleg satellite internet? yep they have to pipe sun in to me and I get wind second hand from Bub 73. HeHeHe ('  ')URL=http://www.motherearthnews.com/Renewable-Energy/1973-11- 01/The-Plowboy-Interview.aspx>The Plowboy Interview[/URL> |
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MacGyver Guru Joined: 12/05/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 1329 |
Hey, I thought Downwind's comment was pretty funny; made me chuckle. I must admit I live in the USA and have high-speed Internet and use a Mac and drive a luxury car and so on; in other words I lead a blessed life. That being said, here's a Link that may help someone who is no farther from a town than maybe 5 miles or so. The link is about a "Wy-Fi" antenna that pulls in (pirates the signal?) a Wy-Fi" Internet connection from any number of coffee shops or such that offer "Free" Internet to their customers. Starbucks Coffee in the USA I know regularly use 4 to 6 transmission antennas in their shops to facilitate good connections anywhere near the place. These signals radiate from the business district like light from a glowing lamp. I looked into one of these to mount on my travel trailer and found out they are not specifically too good for Macs. They are designed for a PC and come with a "mini" compact disk full of instructions and contain a software download for your computer to use with the antenna. Maybe this will help someone who lives in a fringe area. Nothing difficult is ever easy! Perhaps better stated in the words of Morgan Freeman, "Where there is no struggle, there is no progress!" Copeville, Texas |
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| MacGyver Guru Joined: 12/05/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 1329 |
Downwind I think the water-heater thingy is a hoax. Causing water to cavitate would likely cause it to cool. As water goes through a phase change, as it likely would by being split up into smaller particles and eventually "steam", it would lose it's "latent heat of vaporization" and that makes it cold. That's why you can squirt yourself with a water hose in the summer, then stand in a breeze and cool off (assuming you're not in 90% humidity--that won't work). As the water "dries" it goes from a liquid to a gas and with it goes its latent heat of vaporization. I suspect the video doesn't tell the whole story. Perhaps they spin the liquid into small particles, then heat it. This would perhaps be similar to spraying a mist into a hot cylinder, causing the water to "flash" into steam. The small particles of water don't "sink" off as much heat as a pool would (as in a storage-vessel boiler). That's my take on the video at least. Edit: Spelling error! . . . . . Mac Nothing difficult is ever easy! Perhaps better stated in the words of Morgan Freeman, "Where there is no struggle, there is no progress!" Copeville, Texas |
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| Downwind Guru Joined: 09/09/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2333 |
They call it water hammer i call it water shear. Water shear will work and is a technique i have used in the oilfield to raise the water temp when working in 40 below zero temps. An example of this is using a centrifugal pump with a closed impeller (open impeller wont work) pumping against a closed or semi closed valve. I have seen the pump get so hot the paint has blisster and burnt off the housing. Water rotated in a close clearance to the outer housing gets hot quickly. I think this is the same technique that they are using in the video, the holes in the rotor only gives traction to the water. Well thats my take on it. Pete. Sometimes it just works |
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GreenD88 Senior Member Joined: 19/05/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 104 |
It technically has about the same efficiency has a Gas or Electric Water Heater, closer to Electric. But the Key thing here is also the ability to work like a pump too. But still it takes so many Btu's or Calories to heat water. I bet if someone set up a controlled experiment to repeat James Prescott Joule's water paddle experiment and then built a second one but replaced the paddle with a solid disk with holes drilled in it you would come up with the same amount of energy to heat a certain amount of water. Probably would even take a little more energy to heat the water with the disk. Licensed Master Plumber / EPA 608 Universal License / 410a Safety Certified / Medical Gas Brazer/Installer |
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| MacGyver Guru Joined: 12/05/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 1329 |
I'm not a big proponent of "over-unity"; too much college physics, I suppose. At any rate, I'd like to see some figures from a run of this contraption against a "control group" like GreenD88 suggested. My take on it was that it caused cavitation, which is basically boiling without heat. The heat they're touting has to come from somewhere and if they're using an "electric" motor to spin the thing that makes the water hot, it seems to be going around the long way. Why not merely use the electricity, which turns the impeller, to heat the water and skip all the machining? Then again, "great apes" were thought a myth until someone snapped a photo of one early last century or thereabouts. I dunno! Nothing difficult is ever easy! Perhaps better stated in the words of Morgan Freeman, "Where there is no struggle, there is no progress!" Copeville, Texas |
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| GreenD88 Senior Member Joined: 19/05/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 104 |
Hmm lets look at this from a mathematical versus Cost point and see whats the cheapest way to do this if heating a 50 gallon tank of water. I'll size for a residential water heater. 50 gallons of water from 60 degree Fahrenheit to 123 degree Fahrenheit, which is a 63 Degree Delta T. It takes 1 BTU to raise 1lb of water 1 degree Fahrenheit. There is 8.35 lbs in 1 gallons of water so 8.35*50=417.5 lbs of water. So were going to raise the temperature of 417.5 lbs of water 63 degrees. 417.5*63=26,302.5 btu at 100% eff. Gas Tanks are only about on average 59% eff so were going to need 26,302.5/.59=44,580 BTU's to raise the 50 gallons 63 degree's. There is about 1000 btu's in 1 cu ft of natural gas. So it will take 44,580/1000= 44.6 cubic feet of gas. Right now it costs about $0.01125 per cubic foot of gas. So it's gonna cost you about $.50 to heat your water tank with gas in one hour. Electric Tanks on average are about 90.4% to 95% efficient. So 26,302.5/.90.4=29,096 BTU. One BTU = 0.000293 kWh 29,095*.000293=8.5 kWh 8.5*$.12=$1.02 To heat the 50 gallon tank on Electric Heating Elements in one hour. Small Electric Motors are only around 80% efficient. So 26,302.5/.8=32,878 BTU = 9.6 KWh Electricity is used so a 9.6/1.3= 7.3 HP motor is needed. So it's gonna cost 9.6kWh * $.12 = $1.15 To heat 50 gallons of water 63 degrees Fahrenheit with an electric motor in one hour. Unless Extra Energy is coming out of thin air. It's gonna cost you more to heat a tank of water with an electric motor. Now if your using it as a tank less heater then maybe but I bet the motor and Pump/Drum is gonna COST you a lot more than an Electric Tank-less Heater. Between a tank and tank-less water heater your only gonna save about $10 per month. Numbers are gonna vary place to place I'm using local numbers for prices. Most Electric Water heaters only have a 2 to 4 KW element in them also. So it takes longer for Electric Water heaters to recover. I might be wrong but my take on it is Gas is the way to go Tank or Tank-less. Edit. Now if you get a New High Efficiency Gas water heater then they have about same eff of a Electric some even more up to 96%. Which would cost you about $0.30 to heat the 50 gallons. 26,302.5/.96=27398/1000=27 cu ft 27*.01125=$0.30 One last thought as to why it is a HOAX, if it did have 170% more power out than in then they could use the steam to run a turbine that turned a generator that fed the motor and it would keep going forever.... My guess is their only getting 70% to 90% of the power they put in it back out as steam. Licensed Master Plumber / EPA 608 Universal License / 410a Safety Certified / Medical Gas Brazer/Installer |
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| Downwind Guru Joined: 09/09/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2333 |
Even at 70-90% it is still practical as a INSTANT electric water heater as your caculations showed it was based on a 50 gallon consumpion. With gas you have the option of instant hot water (heat the water only when required for use) but with electric heating, instant systems are not common and we spend a lot of energy heating water that we might use, rather than heat it when we do use it. The saving is in only heating the water we do use and not the rest of the 50 gallon we dont use. Pete. Sometimes it just works |
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| GreenD88 Senior Member Joined: 19/05/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 104 |
Some of Pros of a tank less Heater are: 1. Not having to keep 50 gallons of water hot, 2. Instant Hot Water, 3. Slightly Lower Utility Bills Depending on use, 4. Twice the lifetime if maintained properly. 5. Can save about $1000 over the 20 years lifespan compared to a tank heater. Some Cons: 1. Much more expensive to buy and install and maintain (Monthly cleaning and back-washing is required if you have hard water), 2. Larger Service mains either electric or gas which costs more money. If you can afford it a tank less is the way to go but until they come down on the price of the units it's not feasible for many to convert to tank less. If you take a 15 min shower and your shower head has a flow of 3gpm then that's 45 gallons of water you still have to heat up in 15 minutes compared to heating it up over a couple hours, that's why they take larger gas or electric lines. And the cost of installing a bigger gas line or electric line can add up pretty fast. Now I'd love to see someone put one of these on a windmill that would be awesome wouldn't it? Licensed Master Plumber / EPA 608 Universal License / 410a Safety Certified / Medical Gas Brazer/Installer |
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| MacGyver Guru Joined: 12/05/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 1329 |
GreenD88 Thanks for doing all the math and explaining everything. For the rest of the crew here, it looks like GreenD88 is a licensed plumber. I am too (C-36) and everything he said in the post on the first page is true. For the engineers here, most of the gas companies use natural gas with a specific gravity of 1, so the cubic feet and BTU values in table 12-1 of the UPC can be used right out of the table without any fancy math or understanding. As for using a tank-type storage or a "tankless" water heater, there's really no comparison. All the "hype" you hear on television and on the radio is just that. What they don't tell you is you need a minimum 3/4" DEDICATED (that means it's a home-run, stand-alone line directly from the gas meter!) gas line to run one of these things. The fireball looks like an after-burner operating; it's way hot and therefore has to be on less time. Another thing is, the venting is out-of-this-world expensive. Until storage water heaters approach the price of tankless, the tankless ones are a joke. I'm a professional plumber and I always try to talk my customers out of the tankless type. That shows you how adamant I am about these things. I think they suck. As far as heating goes, I'm a big proponent of solar. I think every house should have at least a pre-heated solar application. Okay, I'll quit. I still think the you-tube thing is a hoax. Nothing difficult is ever easy! Perhaps better stated in the words of Morgan Freeman, "Where there is no struggle, there is no progress!" Copeville, Texas |
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| GreenD88 Senior Member Joined: 19/05/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 104 |
A guy in our local was telling me a couple weeks ago about installing one in a basement and it required stainless steel venting. It cost well over a $1000 dollars just for the venting. Licensed Master Plumber / EPA 608 Universal License / 410a Safety Certified / Medical Gas Brazer/Installer |
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| Downwind Guru Joined: 09/09/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2333 |
Here in Oz the tankless hot water systems are very common on suburbian houses with natural gas plumbing. They are very cost effecient to run and are mainly fitted to the outside wall so there is no need for lots of exhaust plumbing. Most of the later ones come with a wireless remote panel that is fitted to the wall above the sink and in the bath room so you can dial in the water temp required and only heat the water to the amount needed saving in heating costs. A friend of mine finds this very handy to keep the kids shower time down, as after a while he just turns the water temp down and they get out of the shower real quick. ...even more savings. It has been law here now for some time that all new home installations MUST have a device fitted to limit the water temp for the bathroom to 40C max. to prevent scoulding so it makes good sense to only heat the bathroom water to 40C max to start with. The rest of the house can have higher temps avaliable. A 3 gallon a minute shower rose is also basically out lawed here to, as they waste to much water and the example given above dont take into account that the hot water is mixed with cold water for shower use and would be no where near 45 gallons of hot water used for a 15 minute shower. If so you guys need to catch up with the rest of the world with water savings as that is a extreme amount of water to wash ones body. Talk about over unity...more like over use!! Pete. Sometimes it just works |
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| GreenD88 Senior Member Joined: 19/05/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 104 |
Well in oz you probably don't have to worry about freezing pipes so yeah big plus there. And the 3 gpm shower rose is still pretty common it's only really required to use a 1.6 to 2.6 gpm on new installation. And same on new installation requiring Thermostatically controlled valves here too but that's not really an option when replacing an old control valve for most people so you can get away with using the old two handle style still for repairs. Plus you have to figure in a lot of people do take 15 - 30 minute showers here in the U.S. Especially women..... Also you gotta figure in how many bedrooms and how many people are going to be taking showers one after the other. Well basically it's gonna very person to person and installation to installation quite a bit. Different people have different preferences. Licensed Master Plumber / EPA 608 Universal License / 410a Safety Certified / Medical Gas Brazer/Installer |
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| MacGyver Guru Joined: 12/05/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 1329 |
Let me throw in my 2-cent's worth here. First off, in the USA we are required to use what we call a "pressure-balanced" valve for new construction. It will work in a remodel or re-fit too, but if the plumbing system is not truly "balanced" meaning as much hot usage on one side of the valve as the other, it becomes nearly impossible to take a really hot shower. So, the difference here is we handle the scalding problem valve by valve and you folks down under just turn down the whole system. As far as "usage" the bottom line is "This is America. We waste EVERYTHING. We're taught this from the time we learn to walk; it's in-bred. We can't help it. A typical example is my wife's car, an E class Benz. It has more off-the-line power than you can shake a stick at. Who needs all that power? After all, every street here has a "speed limit". You can only go so fast before it's illegal, so like I said, who needs it? Still, you can set the little computer thingy in it and it;ll go 95 miles an hour straight up the tallest hill you can find. Go figure! I once had the idea to use waste water from the shower in a heat exchanger to pre-heat incoming water, but the UPC guys would swallow their teeth if I tried to incorporate this idea into any product. It's a waste-water / potable-water agenda. Anything approaching accidental potable water contamination in the US is a no-no. Along those same lines, I thought it would be a good idea to make venetian blinds that were chrome on one side and flat black on the other. One side would reflect light and heat and the other would absorb. If heat were needed, the angle of the blinds could be set so as to cause the heated air rising between the slats to heat the room. Just another idea. Nothing difficult is ever easy! Perhaps better stated in the words of Morgan Freeman, "Where there is no struggle, there is no progress!" Copeville, Texas |
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| KarlJ Guru Joined: 19/05/2008 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1178 |
wow, you Americans waste some water and power in the shower! I havent paid for a shower in 2 years, I have evacuated tube solar hot water feeding the old gas storage tank, if it gets too cold (only in the dead of winter), the thermostat fires up the burner. Our disadvantage is almost all HWS in Aus are roof mounted tank or outdoor, no cellars here thus no ducting. I can buy a 2nd hand instant unit for $3-600 AUD in perfect order and 3/4" copper is cheap at the end of the day. Insulate, insulate and then insulate some more, no sense loosing half the hot water in the pipes. Due to the fact I recycle all of my water I dont even use cold water to fill the kettle, I fill a bucket till its as hot as it will get then fill it, I will then use the bucket of water in the clothes washing machine. we use 33l / day mains water and another 150-200 of tank water for a family of 4. I only have a 5000L tank but this is fine as i collect 140L / mm of rainfall and get 35mm or so a month so rarely run out of water, and if i do i just turn on the tap. Luck favours the well prepared |
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