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Forum Index : Other Stuff : Renewable Solar and Wind Energy Transform
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isaiah Guru  Joined: 25/12/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 303 |
Powered by Translate Renewable Solar and Wind Energy Transformed into Substitute for Natural Gas for Energy Storage 0diggsdigg Buzz up!vote now — | photo Contributed by Alton Parrish (Reporter) Wed 05 May 2010 12:53 More stories from this contributor This story has been viewed 5 times (5 times in the past 24 hours, 3 times in the past hour) Renewable electricity can be transformed into a substitute for natural gas. Until now, electricity was generated from gas. Now, a German-Austrian cooperation wants to go in the opposite direction. In the future, these researchers and entrepreneurs would like to store surplus electricity – such as from wind power or solar energy – as climate-neutral methane, and store it in existing gas storage facilities and the natural gas network. Throughout the world, electricity generation is based more and more on wind and solar energy. So far, the missing link for integrating renewable energy into the electricity supply is a smart power storage concept. Because when the wind is blowing powerfully, wind turbines generate more electricity than the power grid can absorb. Now, German researchers have succeeded in storing renewable electricity as natural gas. They convert the electricity into synthetic natural gas with the aid of a new process. The process was developed by the Center for Solar Energy and Hydrogen Research Baden-Württemberg (ZSW), in cooperation with the Fraunhofer Institute for Wind Energy and Energy System Technology IWES. Currently, Solar Fuel Technology, the Austria-based partner company, is setting up the industrial implementation of the process. One advantage of the technology:it can use the existing natural gas infrastructure. A demonstrationsystem built on behalf of Solar Fuel in Stuttgart is already operating successfully. By 2012, a substantially larger system – in the double-digit megawatt range – is planned to be launched. For the first time, the process of natural gas production combines the technology for hydrogen-electrolysis with methanisation. "Our demonstration system in Stuttgart separates water from surplus renewable energy using electrolysis. The result is hydrogen and oxygen," explains Dr. Michael Specht of ZSW. "A chemical reaction of hydrogen with carbon dioxide generates methane – and that is nothing other than natural gas, produced synthetically." With the rapid expansion of renewable energies, the need for new storage technologies grows massively. This is of special interest for energy utilities and power companies. "So far, we converted gas into electricity. Now we also think in the opposite direction, and convert electricity into ’real natural’ gas," explains Dr. Michael Sterner of Fraunhofer IWES, who is investigating engineering aspects and energy system analysis of the process. "Surplus wind and solar energy can be stored in this manner. During times of high wind speeds, wind turbines generate more power than is currently needed. This surplus energy is being more frequently reflected at the power exchange market through negative electricity prices." In such cases, the new technology could soon keep green electricity in stock as natural gas or renewable methane. "Within the development of this technology, ZSW has been guided by two core issues," explains Michael Specht: "Which storage systems offer sufficient capacity for fluctuating renewable energies that depend on the wind and weather? And which storage systems can be integrated into the existing infrastructure the easiest?" The storage reservoir of the natural gas network extending through Germany is vast: It equals more than 200 terawatt hours – enough to satisfy consumption for several months. The power network has only a capacity of 0.04 terawatt hours by itself. The integration into the infrastructure is simple: The natural gas substitute can be stored like conventional natural gas in the supply network, pipelines and storage systems, in order to drive natural gas cars or fire natural gas heating systems. The new technology aims at facilitating the integration of high shares of fluctuating power generation from renewable energies into the energy system. One goal is to structure the delivery of power from wind parks on a scheduled and regular basis. "The new concept is a game changer and a new significant element for the integration of renewable energies into a sustainable energy system," adds Sterner. The efficiency of converting power to gas equals more than 60 percent. "In our opinion, this is definitely better than a total loss," says Michael Specht. A total loss looms if, for instance, wind power has to be curtailed. The predominant storage facility to date – pumped hydro power plants – can only be expanded to a limited extent in Germany. In order to push the new energy conversion technology forward, the two German research institutes have joined together with the company Solar Fuel Technology of Salzburg. Starting in 2012, they intend to launch a system with a capacity of approximately 10 megawatt. The cooperation partners: ZSW is among the most renowned research institutions in the field of photovoltaics, energy systems analysis, regenerative fuels, battery technology and fuel cells. Currently, approximately 170 scientists, engineers and technical experts are employed at the three locations in Stuttgart, Ulm and Widderstall. They have a turnover of more than 22 million Euro. Solar Fuel Technology GmbH & Co. KG is engineering technologies and systems for the compensation of fluctuating feed-in of renewable power. Electricity is converted to CO2-neutral, renewable natural gas that can be used for many purposes. Solar Fuel was established in November 2007. Founder and managing director is Gregor Waldstein, Dipl.-Ing. ETH, MBA. Dr. Thomas Schlegl Managing Director of the Fraunhofer Energy Alliance Fraunhofer Institute for Solar Energy Systems Heidenhofstraße 2 79110 Freiburg, Germany Phone +49 761 4588-5473 Fax +49 761 4588-9229 Send an e-mail Visit Nano Patents and Innovations for more science and technology new URL=http://www.motherearthnews.com/Renewable-Energy/1973-11- 01/The-Plowboy-Interview.aspx>The Plowboy Interview[/URL> |
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| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi Isaiah What a terrific use of existing storage, lets hope this project gets going, although I am not to fussed with adding the CO2 as I have been told it is a bit dangerous and when it burns the CO2 is released again so that seems like a waste of time to me. However it is a good start. All the best Bob Foolin Around |
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| dextercath96 Newbie  Joined: 07/01/2010 Location: PhilippinesPosts: 6 |
I like renewable energy. I use Solar Power Generator as my renewable energy. I hope that we can use these renewable energy so that our community will lessen the pollution. Sunpowerport Solar Generator |
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| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi Dexta Good for you there is a huge need for solar power in the Philippines and plenty of sun to provide it please keep us posted as to how you are progressing with your project, I have spent some time there and can really see that solar would solve a lot of energy problems if it becomes affordable there. All the best Bob Foolin Around |
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Don B Senior Member  Joined: 27/09/2008 Location: AustraliaPosts: 190 |
My understanding of chemistry is very basic, but I believe that when you burn methane(CH4), you get carbon dioxide (CO2) and water (H2O). If you have had to add CO2 to hydrogen to make methane in the first place, you would wonder at the point of it all, as you would think that it would be more efficient to just burn the hydrogen that you started with. An extra benefit from burning hydrogen is that all that you are left with is water. Speaking of efficiency, I guess the real question is how many kW you can generate from the kW that you have to expend in electrolysing water into hydrogen and oxygen, plus whatever it takes for methanisation, plus generation losses? The other point is that there would seem to be no reason to bother suffering the transmission losses and difficulty of pumping methane through a pipeline, when you could apparently produce methane by this process right at the gates of a power station. If there are, in fact, reasonable efficiency numbers for this process, then I wish more power to their arm. But I will take some convincing. Regards Don B |
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| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi Don I believe the point of the exercise is to collect excess energy that would otherwise be lost or dissipated such as by dump load heating the air so the efficiency of the process of generating energy by hydrogen conservation is only practical buy using waste energy, a bit like pumping water up a hill to storage to run downhill to generate power at peak consumption, this isn't a efficient way to produce power but it provides load for turbines when demand is low and peak power when demand is high. The adding of CO2 doesn't make much sense to me as first you have to capture it then add it then re liberate it, this process may have been invented by a politician or to appease a politician. All the best Bob Foolin Around |
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| Don B Senior Member Joined: 27/09/2008 Location: AustraliaPosts: 190 |
Hi Bob, I don't believe that any country's power system has so much wind generation connected that it is unable to absorb peaks of wind energy. If it did, then the power supply system would be inherently unstable, as wind generation generally lacks the regulating capabilities of the base load generation. Wind power peaks also tend to be of fairly short duration, which makes me suspect that there can't be any serious economic justification for establishing an electrolysis/methanisation plant based on this proposition. I am not sure of the numbers, but I understand that it takes a fair bit of power to split water into hydrogen and oxygen gas anyway, and this has been a barrier to the economic use of the process when its possibilities were looked at previously by others. I also wonder at what sort of energy input is necessary to methanise hydrogen with CO2 following electrolysis? I suspect that you are correct though when you suggest that this proposal is probably intended as a message of hope for some politician to spruik to an uncritical audience. Regards Don B |
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| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi Don Yes I believe it is smoke and mirrors to placate people who don't know any better. However if there is ever enough power to spare from solar and wind applications say on weekends when there is less industrial usage or some form of energy regimentation is brought in that would lesson the waste of electricity from buildings being fully lighted when nobody is working there there just maybee a bit of excess power for electrolysis, to make the use of the gasses a proposition, HHO Browns gas or seperated Oxygen or Hydrogen. I have been thinking of a unit for cutting and welding to replace the Oxyacetelene plant that costs a fortune for gas and bottle rent, just an Idea, I have generated and used HHO for welding and its good and dosnt cost a fortune, but for cutting it needs a bit more Oxygen, but then there is always the plazma cutter. Also cheap to run. Just dreaming. All the best Bob Foolin Around |
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| Don B Senior Member Joined: 27/09/2008 Location: AustraliaPosts: 190 |
Hi Bob, Fair comment. It is also most instructive to read the Wikipedia entry on Oxyhydrogen Regards Don B |
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| dextercath96 Newbie Joined: 07/01/2010 Location: PhilippinesPosts: 6 |
Thanks Bob, Here in the Philippines needs more efficient alternative sources of energy because it is very hot here. I want lessen global warming by producing more solar power. I think it will lessen the pollution and global warming if we cooperate to use solar power equipments here.  Sunpowerport Solar Generator |
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| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
HI dexta I have spent a lot of time in the Philippines working on various enviro projects as a consultant so I know the place quite well, but the thing that makes it hard to do anything over there is the attitude of the powers that be on all levels, they want to eat the manook before the egg is laid. I saw a number of good projects there and at the time was in a position to get them going however the pork barrel brigade at all levels killed the goose that laid the golden egg. You are in a better position as a local resident to get something going than me, as an outsider as all they saw in me was a money tree and I am not that silly. I offer you whatever help I can as a consultant, but the money is gone so that side is up to you. All the best Bob Foolin Around |
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sunpowerport Newbie Joined: 09/01/2011 Location: United StatesPosts: 1 |
I am supposed to build solar power in Philippines but I like the solar power of dexter. Cheers mates..  solar power generator |
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AMUN-RA Senior Member Joined: 10/03/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 144 |
gizmo this bloke has been on the ata website trying to sell his wares advvise you bloke him he is anoying mick Every day the sun shines & gravity sucks= free energy. |
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Gizmo Admin Group  Joined: 05/06/2004 Location: AustraliaPosts: 5036 |
Noted, will keep and eye on it, thanks. The best time to plant a tree was twenty years ago, the second best time is right now. JAQ |
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MacGyver Guru Joined: 12/05/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 1329 |
Isaih, Bob & Others Lets level the playing field. I have extensive experience with hydrogen and its major drawback is storage. Making the stuff is child's play, but it does consume lots of amps. If it were possible to change the hydrogen to methane at anything even approaching a reasonable amount of energy input, I'd be up to perfecting the process. I have a pretty good background in physical chemistry, but I know I tend to go off the deep end usually, so what I'm after here is a little brainstorming from the crew. If anyone knows abut a 'process' (read that NOT the stochiometry) but the actual add-this-to-that-and-cook-it stuff, post it here. I'll pick the best recipe and run with it. In my estimation, once the windmill and generator or solar array is built and paid for, the energy produced from that point is basically "free". The point here is to construct a workable, build-able system that others can construct in their back sheds to use for energy storage. By way of warning, I have actually had the police bomb squad at my home because of a hydrogen explosion that rocked the entire neighborhood, so if you're going to "dabble" with this stuff, be careful! If we all had a method to store excess power instead of passing it to a dump load, it'd be a feather in our collective caps! . . . . . Mac Nothing difficult is ever easy! Perhaps better stated in the words of Morgan Freeman, "Where there is no struggle, there is no progress!" Copeville, Texas |
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| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi Mac As you know I have been playing with Browns Gas for years and I believe the only way to be safe with this stuff is to make it on demand, as it is a dangerous proposition to store at ambient temperatures. I think that a storage of the excess energy from wind and solar is a better way to go for fixed base applications. The use of batteries is OK as it is easy and uses readily available low tech devices but is inefficient in chemical energy transfer and a very limited life cycle of the active components in the case of lead acid batteries and the high cost of lipo and other forms of exotic metal batteries and I am not sure that the life of these devices is much better than lead acid . What I propose is a capacitor storage bank that is charged by excess energy and converted to HHO on demand for internal combustion or a split cell generator to split out the oxygen and hydrogen which is then cooled and compressed for storage, with the final use in a fuel cell or internal combustion. Capacitors are cheap and easy to make even in the home workshop and use non polluting materials that are readily available, have a long life span when used within ratings and are fully recyclable. Also they are light enough to be used for a traction energy source when configured as a supplementary energy storage in conjunction with batteries. I have old Capacitors that are still going after 60 years and they where made with material that are now classed as stone age of electronics. The problem we all have is limited time and resources to do what we want, there are many low tech solutions that are ignored by mainstream commercial interests because they are not patentable, are long life so therefore not profitable from a designed redundancy point of view. It could be put together by a pack of old fogies in a co-operative manner, so lets bounce the ball around a bit and see what pocket it falls into. All the best Bob Foolin Around |
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Greenbelt Guru Joined: 11/01/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 566 |
Bob.Isaih, Mac: On the previous page where the merit of the methanesation of Water and Carbon Dioxide was discussed there is a misunderstanding of the chemistry involved. I will try to show the benefit of breaking down the water and CO=2. To begin with; Here is a little show and tell pictorial for various fuels and what the end products contain after the fuel is burnt. 
You will notice that Methane(natural gas) contains 1 carbon atom and four hydrogen atoms. Wood, Gas and Oil are the natural fuels of earth, all contain carbon and hydrogen, all must have oxygen to burn and all create (carbon monoxide,carbon dioxide) and Water when burned. The one exception is hydrogen Gas which only forms Water. Carbon Monoxide is poison. Will give you a Headache and dizziness, will kill you. Carbon monoxide is formed when fuel burns in a atmosphere containing very little oxygen such as an Engine cylinder with limited volume.C-O. contains 1 Oxygen atom. A fuel rich carburetor will generate C-O. It is flammable and will burn when oxygen is present. Water gas is a mix of C-O and Hydrogen. Carbon Dioxide is generally harmless. it is a large part of what we call air, and is only harmful to the planet because it acts like a thermal insulator or blanket surrounding the earth, at night when the sky is clear, the Earth is a giant Stove radiating its heat into empty space, when the quantity of CO=2 increases this thermal blanket prevents the Earth from giving up the heat that the sun has poured up on it. The oddity of this is, only infra red light is blocked, the light from the sun penetrates this easily but the radiant infra red cannot get out( Global Warming). Now, Instead of burning more Methane from the Gas Wells and making more CO=2 we take the CO=2 that already exists and water that already exists then make a gas that is equal to Methane and burn that to Water and CO=2 Replacing what we used but not adding to it. Windmills, The Grid Load at night is a third or less of the daytime evening load and the steady load turbine's are preferred. The output from the mills could be used to make gas at night and be ready to switch to the grid when demand calls for it. I personally like this idea and would like to see the auto's use Methane from this source, it would also be used to drive the turbines replacing Coal and NG. Yep.! I like This Time has proven that I am blind to the Obvious, some of the above may be True? |
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| MacGyver Guru Joined: 12/05/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 1329 |
Bob I agree, Brown's Gas is too dangerous. The oxygen can be scrubbed easily by passing the freshly-generated Brown's Gas through steel wool. The oxygen reacts with the iron (rust) forming ferrous oxide and it leaves the hydrogen fairly clean. Hydrogen will combust at only 4% oxidation, so to make it really safe, it needs to be sent twice through the scrubber. All that is a waste of time in my way of thinking. What I'm after is a simple way to turn Brown's Gas (and I developed a generator that will knock your socks off!!) directly into methane and not bother scrubbing it at all. Why not just cut to the chase? My college chemistry professor is an old friend and I think he's still warm and breathing. I'll be in his neck of the woods tomorrow, so I may drop by and have a chat with him about this. As for cooling the oxygen, so it can be stored as a liquid, you're dreaming. That's like compressing an elephant into a match box; lots and lots of work needed. I should think there is a simpler way to combine the free electricity, water and fairy dust to get what we want, namely methane. Methane can be stored under water quite easily and if it is going to be used in a heating application, can be siphoned off and used while at the same time it is resupplied by our as yet unknown processor. If Roe's boss doesn't beat him up too badly over being late for dinner, maybe he (Roe) can shed some light on our pathway. All in all, I think it'd be a great companion or maybe even a great alternative to a "dump load". . . . . . Mac Nothing difficult is ever easy! Perhaps better stated in the words of Morgan Freeman, "Where there is no struggle, there is no progress!" Copeville, Texas |
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| MacGyver Guru Joined: 12/05/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 1329 |
[Quote=Greenbelt]Water gas is a mix of C-O and Hydrogen. I think this is maybe a type-o. Water gas is a breakdown of it's two components, namely hydrogen (2 atoms) and oxygen (1 atom) and no carbon. Water gas with carbon would be C-H-O and that is basically a simple alcohol. . . . . . Mac Nothing difficult is ever easy! Perhaps better stated in the words of Morgan Freeman, "Where there is no struggle, there is no progress!" Copeville, Texas |
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| Greenbelt Guru Joined: 11/01/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 566 |
Hello Mac; I was a good guy and traded the puter for a plate of hot food and told her over and over how good it was, that's cheap insurance against having to cook my own. I have a link here that will further your chemistry Ed. You are probably right about the typo, However, it was made many years ago. not by Me. Water Gas Water gas was used by the Germans WW-2 and I saw a post some time ago on this forum that show the Aussies used it also, probably about the same time. The use of steam over charcoal or coke generates this gas. the coke uses the water oxy to make C-O and leaves the naked hydrogen or something like that. BTW, Happy new year. Time has proven that I am blind to the Obvious, some of the above may be True? |
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