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Forum Index : Other Stuff : Ecoinnovation Experience Hydro Gen
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| kingull Regular Member  Joined: 08/04/2010 Location: AustraliaPosts: 44 |
Hi Guys, I just received an Ecoinnovation "Powerspout" "GE" version for Grid Tie application. I was astonished to receive a box of parts instead of a fully built unit which I ordered and paid for. Hidden way down in their PDF it says how to assemble it but no where does it clearly indicate that is how they send the unit. Nothing included in the package on how to assemble it. I was supposed to know that I had to read their long winded PDF to find assembly details. The first thing I had to do was remove a heap of iron filings from the magnets in the rotor. Damned aggressive magnets even resisted high pressure air nozzle. Eco reccomended the SMB1100 GTI unit (Grid tied inverter) SMA have since advised that warranty is void if connected to the Eco GE device. On finished assembly, I rotated the Pelton wheel with my finger, Their magnetic clamp came on instantly. Test results were forwarded to Eco`s Michael Lawley. He ignored my reference to iron filings and said just turn it on. I am then advised that these two questions have used up my full one hours technical support. What technical support?????????????? Does anyone know why this clamp wont release unless a lot of torque is applied? I nearly stalled my 18 volt drill to break through the clamp barrier. Had to wind it up to full power then it released. Eco innovation will not answer the question professionally. The unit also refused to release the magnetic clamp when water was turned on to drive the Pelton Wheel. |
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MacGyver Guru  Joined: 12/05/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 1329 |
kingull I did a little poking around on their Web site and found their certificate is expired. I tried to post a "screen shot" of it here, but it's not the right file type and the 4m won't support it. Anyways, in my book, this is a bit of a flag on the play. It may mean nothing, then again, it may, I dunno. I usually never buy stuff online unless it has come by way of a recommendation from a friend or at least someone I know and respect and if there is any glitch at all, I hold off. The certificate notice was a result of my punching the "Order" button, by the way. I did it just for kicks. . . . . . Mac Nothing difficult is ever easy! Perhaps better stated in the words of Morgan Freeman, "Where there is no struggle, there is no progress!" Copeville, Texas |
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Bryan1 Guru Joined: 22/02/2006 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1211 |
If you paid for it by credit card get in contact and tell them you didn't get what you paid for and cancel the payment... |
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| kingull Regular Member Joined: 08/04/2010 Location: AustraliaPosts: 44 |
Thanks MacGyver, Eco was reccomended on another posted article here on "Other Stuff". It sounded quite good so I went ahead with it. Their Michael Lawley loves to "shoot you down in flames". Very aggressive replies to emails. I have the unit now and a GTI all up $4000-00 AU delivered. Not much point communicating with them. I would rather just toss it on the garbage truck. SMA wont accept their GE unit and Lawley said their tech support just dont know what they are talking about. |
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| Bryan1 Guru Joined: 22/02/2006 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1211 |
Kingull where are you located ? I'm sure one of the members on this forum will lend a hand. I'm in the Adelaide Hills and I'm only too happy to offer help. 4K is a heap to spend I'm sure we can get this thing working for you in some way. Regards Bryan |
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| kingull Regular Member Joined: 08/04/2010 Location: AustraliaPosts: 44 |
Hi Bryan1, I think it will work but this stupid clamp effect takes a lot of torque to overcome. They say it is necessary to load dump. The test I did shows ten volts DC whilst clamped at about 3 RPM where their manual states it should clamp at the 400 Volt DC limit. They are adamant that nothing is wrong with their unit. Very unpleasant emails from their Michael Lawley. I have yet to complete the pipeline so the real pressure test is not yet ready. My location is Below Mount Nullum adjacent to Mount Warning and ten K S\W of Murwillumbah. Dunbible NSW 2484. The head is probably above 200 metres static so a head tank will be placed at the static height to match PN12 Blueline. I should get 400 watts continuous year round in current conditions but a hell of a lot more when it rains. |
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| kingull Regular Member Joined: 08/04/2010 Location: AustraliaPosts: 44 |
EcoInnovation Powerspout Web site. http://www.powerspout.com/[/URL] 
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| kingull Regular Member Joined: 08/04/2010 Location: AustraliaPosts: 44 |
Incidentally guys, I did not know the Powerspout site existed and did all my initial enquiries through their ecoinnovation site. I was eventually referred to the Powrspout site. The Powerspout site has since been amended to add the advanced calculator. They have since modified the page as I suggested to point out that the Powerspout is shipped as parts. Which included in my case, a lot of iron filings in the rotor magnets. |
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| kingull Regular Member Joined: 08/04/2010 Location: AustraliaPosts: 44 |
This is part of an email I sent to Eco recently. They actually almost did what I suggested. Still did not get it quite right. Hi Michael, Would suggest you save your customers a lot of time and yourself by absorbing my comments then rethinking how your "Powerspout" web page is set up. Your page suggests "Feedback" so treat it as so. The page should begin with: Powerspouts are supplied dismantled. We assemble and test the unit then dismantle it. The parts are then packaged and sent to you. Your next step is to read the manual details of assembly. PDF Section 3 and 3.1 The package does not include any documents so please read the: PowerSpoutManual.pdf Commissioning: Please Read the Technical manual. PowerSpoutTechManual.pdf Refer section 5.2. Electrical checks with covers off. |
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SSW_squall Senior Member  Joined: 20/03/2010 Location: AustraliaPosts: 111 |
Hi kingull, it seems like things aren't going your way... The clamp your talking about, is this the circuit that stops the voltage getting too high or some other clamp?? It does very much sound like this is faulty if that is the case!! Have you tried disconnecting the smart drive from the PCB with the rectifier and voltage clamp to see to if the turbine spins freely?? Maybe you could take a photo of this circuit board and post it? I might be able to give you some pointers on troubleshooting this to the component level. regards AB Einstein: Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not one bit simpler |
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| kingull Regular Member Joined: 08/04/2010 Location: AustraliaPosts: 44 |
High AB, Powerspout call it "clamp". The clamp comes on within half of the first RPM if rotated by my finger and has an audible magnetic sound and the volts read 10 volts DC. Set on AVO low volts DC scale Reverting to driving it with a drill results in near maximum torque before it breaks the clamp barrier. Avo set on 1000 volt scale then reached 300 VDC. A temporary test on what water I had available was 12 PSI with 50 mm pipe. Nozzle at 8mm bore. Would not break clamp barrier. Powerspout`s Tech manual 5.2.9 online states: "Increase drill speed and note the mechanical load on the electric drill as the voltage clamp operates at 110 V to 115 V (380 V to 390 V for GE). (Caution. Do not continue to operate the voltage clamp without water cooling for more than 10 seconds. The water cooled load may be damaged!)." When I reported the heavy load and ten volts reading they ignored this and simply said "just turn it on". Unit is GE model and should clamp at (380 V to 390 V for GE). Not ten volts DC. The whole email discussion became a fiasco after that. I ended up blocking any further emails from them. Summing up: The unit will probably work on the designed head but the "Clamp" is operating at 10 V DC and should only come in above 380 V DC. The printed circuit board is encapsulated in plastic except for the necessary connections. I would have to dismantle the rotor and stator to photograph it. My high head line is under construction now. Through heavy scrub and very steep terrain. About 500 metres route length. A head tank will limit some 200 metre head to the "Powerspout" maximum head and the limit of PN12.5 pipe. I will post results as soon as it is all connected and online. I thank you AB as you have already offered more assistance than Ecoinnovation. |
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| SSW_squall Senior Member Joined: 20/03/2010 Location: AustraliaPosts: 111 |
Hi kingull, I wish i had the head pressure that you have to play with, it make me look like i'm just paddling down the shallow end... If i were you i'd pull the PCB out, dismantling the rotor and sator shouldn't be a big deal just a few bolts. It may just be some thing simple like a faulty connection on one of the phases from the smart drive that is short circuiting. People often jump to blaming the electronics before checking for a low tech stuff up. Otherwise I'm guessing that the MOSFET in the voltage clamp is short circuited and yes i did see in the manual that the PCB has been potted with silicon sealant or something. That is one of my personal pet hates: it's not a bloody peice of military hardware that could compromise national security so ease up on the paranoia... Although there may be some justification in keeping the water out, there are plastic paint coatings that could do the same thing with much less irritation regards AB Einstein: Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not one bit simpler |
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| kingull Regular Member Joined: 08/04/2010 Location: AustraliaPosts: 44 |
Hi SSW, I tested it last evening on 120 PSI with 4 mm jet. It would not spin up. Ran test again. Snapped the two inch valve open instantly and that bounced it over the clamp barrier. (Stupid design need brief time delay on clamp). The unit ran satisfactorily and the GTI came in as it should do. Tests abandoned as have wife sick right now. This test was from head tank half way. Total head may exceed 300.PSI. I have also a welded stainless steel TURGO from USA. No limitation on nozzle pressure so might build a custom unit and sell the Eco unit. |
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KarlJ Guru Joined: 19/05/2008 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1178 |
sounds like a really good site for micro hydro 400W continuous is awesome 9.6KW/day is better or as good as 2KW solar which would also run into $10K quickly having that kind of water resource, i'd be maxing out that inverter and running two of them. that said it needs to work first, good luck. Karl Luck favours the well prepared |
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| Matt Sagen Newbie  Joined: 29/07/2010 Location: New ZealandPosts: 2 |
I created both the EcoInnovation.co.nz website and the PowerSpout.com website. Michael Lawley is an award-winning engineer, a recognized expert in renewable energy, and a fantastic educator. He has inspired thousands of people to uptake renewable energy. What mister Fallon does not mention in his posts is that he got 30 email replies to his queries, and more than used up his included technical support. The dealer in this case did not tell him to download the online manual, which is not sent with the unit in order to ensure that the latest version is received, as it is continually improved. PowerSpouts are made for the site details provided, and if the testing conditions (ie, using your finger) are not as per those details provided by the customer, the results will not be as promised. Anyone is welcome to read what other customers are saying: http://www.powerspout.com/testimonials/ As to KarlJ, your suggestion that mister Fallon defraud EcoInnovation by saying that a product had been paid for, when it fact it had not, is not funny. You have no place making professional recommendations on any public forum if this is your attitude. |
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Downwind Guru Joined: 09/09/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2333 |
Matt Sagen If people are unhappy with the way your web site is constructed and feel information is lacking then it is you who should listen to the comments. There was several problems rasied with the product received that should be addressed before shipment. As for your comment here....[quote]As to KarlJ, your suggestion that mister Fallon defraud EcoInnovation by saying that a product had been paid for, when it fact it had not, is not funny. You have no place making professional recommendations on any public forum if this is your attitude.[/quote] I read through the thread and can not see where Karl has implyed this and think you are the one making comments on a public forum with a bad attitude. Pete. Sometimes it just works |
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Gizmo Admin Group  Joined: 05/06/2004 Location: AustraliaPosts: 5028 |
Hey Pete I toned it down a bit, hope you dont mind. I agree though, I dont see where Karl said anything along those lines. Matt I would look at what the guys are saying, its contructive critism that should be listened to. Eco Inovation does have a good reputation, but little things like those mentioned above can give any business a bad name in some circles. Glenn The best time to plant a tree was twenty years ago, the second best time is right now. JAQ |
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| Bryan1 Guru Joined: 22/02/2006 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1211 |
First sorry Glenn if I'm out of line Where does this new member Matt Sagen come in here sprouting he SETUP THE WEBSITES and earlier in the thread Kingull mentioned iron filings in his product. All of this points to a few so-called backyard guys calling themselves leaders in the field selling products that should be considered fraud in this country. I do know of a few people who bought their products and had no end of problems. In one case I ended up making whole new unit for the basic cost of parts and after a heap of lost time we got it working. Bryan Since when have you ever been out of line Bryan? Glenn. |
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| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi All Expert in any field must be proven by results, and reading the posts I see a lack of communication skills, there may be some problems with swarf getting into the magnets and as we all know this a serious problem with PM generators, but as with the Chinese ones you have to clean it out, the lock down brake problem, is a jet problem as there isn't enough initial torque to break out with small jets, for the expert web designer to come out and defend poor communication is a waste of time, as there should be a direct comm between the expert designer and maker to make sure it is working properly. To have a limit on the number of email contacts is stupid as it will get the product a bad name even if one in a hundred doesn't get going properly, as everybody talks about it in a negative sense rather than how good it is. All the best Bob Foolin Around |
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| Matt Sagen Newbie Joined: 29/07/2010 Location: New ZealandPosts: 2 |
Thanks for the responses, I can see that I attributed the quote to the wrong user, apologies KarlJ. Bryan1 is the user whose comments Posted: 25 June 2010 at 5:05pm were not acceptable: If you paid for it by credit card get in contact and tell them you didn't get what you paid for and cancel the payment... ...knowing that the product had already been received. This would be fraudulent. A moderator should demand that this be stricken or at least a warning issued lest you become tagged as a place where people get advice to break the law. You can read Franks actual testimony from his email to PowerSpout, once he followed PowerSpout's advice to put the unit in place on the hydro source it was customized for, rather than testing it with a wireless drill, here: http://www.powerspout.com/testimonials/2 ("Frank") Bob, thanks for your comments. I am not only a web dev, but I also have taken Michael's courses on renewable energy, and witnessed first hand his integrity and honest dealings for the last 7 years. He did not ask me to defend his reputation in this forum, I just happen to find unjustified negative comments on this forum, and took it upon myself to ensure a balanced discussion. However, some of you will be happy to learn that I will no longer trouble your forum with my comments, as members like Bryan1, who use abusive humor to make their weak logical points are a waste of time and energy. I don't have sex with sheep. I am from the USA, have lived here for 5 years, and in all that time, I have never seen nor heard of anyone having sex with sheep. It's too bad that his comments are viewed right inline with the rest of you, but that is the power and pain of the internet. Bryan1, It is very easy to make the claims that you make about replacing EcoInnovation products, where is their testimony? If you visit the EcoInnovation website you can read hundreds of positive testimonials from real clients. Also, if I had read any constructive criticism on the content of the site, I would most certainly have implemented it or at least brought it to the attention of my client. Feel free to issue an FAQ on the website if you have a question about where something is or why it is not done better. Best of luck in all of your future endeavors in renewable energy. It is too important a topic for everyone to get bogged down in petty squabbles, so I will participate where the goal is improvement, not harassment. |
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