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Forum Index : Microcontroller and PC projects : Cheap FTDI USB to TTL converter
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bigmik Guru  Joined: 20/06/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2946 |
Lads, I have come across a cheap (very cheap) USB to TTL serial converter that could be useful for projects such as MuP Ver. 2. It is available from a Chinese company (and no doubt others of the same ilk) called, of all names BANGGOOD.COM for $4.34 each including postage. The link to it is here USB-TTL Module Now, as has been mentioned before there appears to be many fake FT232RL chips out there and to date almost all of the cheap Chinese companies have been guilty of using these. They generally have a date code of 1213 printed (not laser etched) and wont work with the latest FTDI drivers (Ver 2.10.0.0 27-Jan-14). These BG units have a date code of 1313 (strangely 1 year exactly later than the known fake chips) and are laser etched not printed onto the surface of the chip. The big plus is that they work fine with the latest FTDI drivers, I was not able to get the module to fail as I have with a known fake FTDI cable that I have. I am NOT saying these are genuine chips but I am saying that the modules seem to work flawlessly. I did do some current drain measurements with a module that reads only to 10mA resolution and the BG unit draw a fairly consistent 30mA whilst Phil's WhiteWizard module using a known genuine source of FTDI chips draws 10mA with fluctuations that flicker to 20mA both of these measurements are fairly stable and measured at idle (just powered up and not working serially). Examining the BG unit is is obvious that it is MASS Produced and not NASA grade quality. Unlike the WhiteWizard module which is of an extremely high build quality and will work `right out of the box' Why Post all this here? Well If you decide that you are prepared to give these BG modules a go they are dirt cheap and only require minimal (2 solder shorts and one cut pin) to plug straight into J12 of the MuP Ver. 2 board. Bottom line I believe these `may' be a new brand of `fake' FT232RL chip that seems to work with all FTDI software drivers upto and including the latest version and these may be (or may not be) rendered inoperable, if they are fake, with a later driver release, you can always roll back to an earlier driver if that ever occurs. If you wish to do further reading on the known fakes have a look at this article: Hack-a-Day Details below: 
and 
Regards, Mick EDIT*** If you do wish to use this with MuP Ver. 2 then configure the BG module to 5v (jumper on the module) and make sure you remove J9 on MuP. Also it would be better if you fitted MuP with a Right angle Female header so that the BG module would sit horizontally rather than vertically (or replace the pins on the BG module with straight ones. Mik Mick's uMite Stuff can be found >>> HERE (Kindly hosted by Dontronics) <<< |
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| JohnS Guru Joined: 18/11/2011 Location: United KingdomPosts: 3998 |
It looks very like this one , which is even cheaper. I bought one and it has the 1313 code as well. I'm not using Windows so don't use its drivers but on Linux it appears fine. John |
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| bigmik Guru Joined: 20/06/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2946 |
John, That it is but it is a different pin-out than the BG one. What I liked about the BG one was the simplicity of adapting it to fit MuP Ver. 2 footprint. Yours might be similarly adapted but I haven't yet looked at what you would need to do to accomplish that. Mick Mick's uMite Stuff can be found >>> HERE (Kindly hosted by Dontronics) <<< |
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TassyJim Guru Joined: 07/08/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 6220 |
I purchased a number of different USB TTL converters of various chip-sets and suppliers to test them with MMEdit. I have yet to receive two with the same pin-out. You can't win. Jim VK7JH MMedit |
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| bigmik Guru Joined: 20/06/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2946 |
Jim, Yes, my dilema when I first designed MuP. I sat for hours checking pinouts on every module I could find and ended up doing one that made logical sense to me as there was no apparent standard out there. Mick Mick's uMite Stuff can be found >>> HERE (Kindly hosted by Dontronics) <<< |
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| JohnS Guru Joined: 18/11/2011 Location: United KingdomPosts: 3998 |
Mick, Good point - thanks. John |
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| Goeytex Regular Member  Joined: 12/05/2014 Location: United StatesPosts: 74 |
How can these not be fake when the volume price for the bare FT232R chip is $2.05 each? I won't buy obvious counterfeits whether they work or not. Buying them keeps these criminal counterfeiters in business. My 2 Cents William |
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| JohnS Guru Joined: 18/11/2011 Location: United KingdomPosts: 3998 |
Partly a good question but anther would be how on earth can a chip as simple as the FT232RL be $2??? Way too much. Easily fixed by FTDI making it a saner price. John |
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| Goeytex Regular Member Joined: 12/05/2014 Location: United StatesPosts: 74 |
I get what you are saying and agree that the FTDI price is too high. It is probably nothing more than a cheap 8051 with a few lines of code. The single unit price here is $4.50, which is absurd. But is not much more than the price of a CP2102 and the FTDI is a better product. But in comparison, I can get a 32-Bit Pic with USB for about that same price(Retail). It is for this same reason that I do not use parts from Linear Tech, because in low quantities they are generally 2 to 6 times higher than comparable products from other (legitimate) manufacturers. Their business model/pricing structure is geared towards high volume customers, and to hell with the small guy. Good products, bad business model. However, not liking the price is not a good moral argument for purchasing known counterfeits from international criminals. William |
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| JohnS Guru Joined: 18/11/2011 Location: United KingdomPosts: 3998 |
Well for all I know these may be genuine chips bought in high volume. Who says they're not? Up to FTDI... I'm certainly not going to try to figure it out for them nor am I going to help them keep up an unreasonably high price. I don't mind paying a fair price but I object to being exploited. John |
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| Goeytex Regular Member Joined: 12/05/2014 Location: United StatesPosts: 74 |
That's a good rationalization. If it works for you .... |
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| bigmik Guru Joined: 20/06/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2946 |
Lads, Whilst I wasn't intending to post this as a fake or not fake chip. In fact I wasnt sure whether it was or wasnt at the time.. I am coming around to the fact that it IS a fake chip for several reasons, Price Current draw Date code EXACTLY one year more than the known fakes Date code the same on Johns board bought from a different supplier I reckon it is a new version of the fake chip with the 1213 date code, presumably to overcome the driver problem, well at least until FTDI releases a new driver.. What I dont understand is why, if they can produce a good chip, that they nt release it as their own product competing with FTDI. Sort of like the cheap Thai fake watches, they are fake brands but generally reasonable watches.. Why not create their own brands and not have to worry about looking over their shoulder.. Anyway users choice and 'caveat emptor' as they say. Regards, Mick Mick's uMite Stuff can be found >>> HERE (Kindly hosted by Dontronics) <<< |
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| JohnS Guru Joined: 18/11/2011 Location: United KingdomPosts: 3998 |
It certainly worked for me till someone posted the claim (I don't know it's true but am not saying otherwise) that the volume price was above $2. With so many far far more complex chips in a similar price range I had always thought that the FTDI one would be much cheaper. Stands to reason. I've never had any reason to look up volume pricing for ... well, any chips as far as I can recall, as I don't ever buy volumes. However, I have seen single prices of things like PIC32 chips and it's natural to expect a trivial chip (in comparison) to be much cheaper. I firmly blame FTDI if their chips even in volume are indeed the price stated. They're rip-off merchants if so and I shall try to avoid buying any of their products. Having innocently bought a board with a chip which MAY be a clone I intend to use it if I feel like it. I doubt it'll see much use but who knows. It's up to FTDI to do something (or not) about these alleged fakes. I don't know if FTDI are doing anything? Big warnings on their site maybe? Court cases? Customs embargoes? They clearly must have the funds to do these as they charge so much, apparently. John |
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| Goeytex Regular Member Joined: 12/05/2014 Location: United StatesPosts: 74 |
There is not much that FTDI can really do about Chinese fakes. The Chinese thumb their nose at International Law unless it benefits them. International courts are powerless over China. Ebay and others cast a blind eye to the fakes and seem only concerned that they get their sales commission. Legal action against small Ebay - Alibaba - Amazon distributors would lead nowhere and would be an expense with no return on investment. Lawsuits against Amazon/Ebay would be extremely costly as these guys can afford to buy 50 FTDI corporations and can hire the best lawyers in the world to drag litigation on & on, to make it as costly as possible for anyone to sue. We live in a world today where justice is bought & paid for. Embargos? Not Likely. When (lately) have western governments done anything other than give special consideration to the Chinese? I'm not sure about where you live but last I heard, China holds about %25 percent of the U.S. Debt. |
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| robert.rozee Guru Joined: 31/12/2012 Location: New ZealandPosts: 2400 |
old or excess stock. leftovers after swapping to a different part. abandoned reels of components left with an assembly house. parts that have been left opened beyond the allowed time limits and the manufacture doesn't care to re-bake them. non-RoHS compliance. in the world of manufacturing there are dozens of reasons why part and even full reels of components end up surplus and are then free to "drop down to a lower tier production line". at the top end, the motto is 'if in doubt, chuck it out'. these FTDI devices could well be genuine components in perfectly serviceable condition that have been purchased for a few cents each by the product manufacturer on the surplus market. a single such reel of 2500 pieces would feed a perfectly economic production run that would fill the supply bins for ebay, bang-good, and alibaba for at least a few weeks, if not perhaps months. rob :-) |
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| JohnS Guru Joined: 18/11/2011 Location: United KingdomPosts: 3998 |
I've searched FTDI's site and cannot find any notice about fake or clone chips so either they are genuine or FTDI don't care (they would have to be really poor not to know). hmm, I have CP2102 and PL2303 and others... do I go looking whether they're real? John |
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| Goeytex Regular Member Joined: 12/05/2014 Location: United StatesPosts: 74 |
I suppose in this case that ignorance is bliss. If you are looking for a way to justify and feel good about purchasing likely counterfeits because you like the cheap price then there ya go. You can pull all kinds of "possible" scenarios out of your *** to make the justification. However, there is considerable information available (for those who care) that suggests that most of the FDTI chips (and cheap devices that use them) coming from Ebay, Alibaba, and other non-authorized supply sources are most likely fakes. I just spoke to Engineering Support at FTDI and was told that counterfeits are constant & on-going issue. The rep also told me that if the supply chain cannot be verified that the chip should be suspect. |
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| JohnS Guru Joined: 18/11/2011 Location: United KingdomPosts: 3998 |
A firm so stupid as to not put anything on their own site frankly is beyond understanding. Rip-off pricing is another. Time they got off their lazy rear ends. I very much doubt your contact would even know if the chips in question were end of reel etc but rather than anyone guess and/or make wild allegations why don't the firm put some effort in? I buy hardly any chips or small devices so cannot verify the glorified supply chain for any of them. Presumably that means I should buy nothing. As if. It's still someone's GUESS (ALLEGATION, if you like) that these MIGHT be fake. The price of the board is within a plausible range if the maker bought a fair few chips. John |
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| WhiteWizzard Guru Joined: 05/04/2013 Location: United KingdomPosts: 2927 |
After reading the last post I just have to comment with facts based on experiences: |
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| JohnS Guru Joined: 18/11/2011 Location: United KingdomPosts: 3998 |
Lots of firms put data about fakes on their sites. I recall Microsoft having details of their logos and so on, with expanded views of important parts. (I don't have experience of Burberry, Rolex or Apple, all are products I do not want and/or at prices I would not pay.) Where have FTDI put examples of fakes with such as the wrong fonts or known fake date codes? I see nowhere. The fakes may keep coming but some people would not buy them if they could see they were fakes. I'm aware that ebay regularly take down fake copies of Microsoft products, one might think Microsoft have a hand in policing ebay. With punitive (we say exemplary) damages potentially available against ebay it's no wonder they take ads down. I'm also aware that test purchases are made by companies and prosecutions follow. FTDI could do these things. Successful prosecutions could be put on their site along with the data about how to spot fakes. End of reel components, and board using them, will be at low prices so with no other guide than a guess at prices (since FTDI failed to put anything about fakes on their site) there is no way to know what is honest and what is not. What you call common-sense logic cannot distinguish, especially as the parts cost looks somewhat below the price I paid. Speaking of prices, many firms sell their products at different prices, sometimes wildly different prices, into different markets. Do FTDI ever do that? Common sense logic would say that with multi-core 32-bit ARM cpu chips at $2 then a FT232RL would be a tenth or a hundredth of that. These are commodity items (unlike Burberry, Rolex etc) and can be expected to be priced appropriately. Apparently FTDI don't follow this economic law. Tell me a way to test my module. It includes various SMD parts incl. a regulator. I've no idea what current it should draw under what conditions. The test needs to be simple as I write software rather than design hardware. I possess a simple meter, which for all I know is a fake. The FT232RL chip on the module does not get hot. No sign of bent pins but it's soldered on so how could there be? On the FT232RL chips with date code 1213 previously raised as suspect I note that Olimex have published that it is a problem with FTDI drivers and a fix to use different FTDI drivers. FTDI have not posted any comment, such as that the chips were fakes. Other sites have similar posts, including that FTDI were unhelpful. It would make sense for FTDI to contact Olimex and/or get a sample of the chips they used and check whether they are fakes and then publish the outcome. Olimex seem keen on their reputation. The Olimex post is now 8 months old. Easily found from google with FTDI 1213 or FT232R 1213 so I see no problem for FTDI to have seen it and commented/done something about it. John |
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