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Forum Index : Microcontroller and PC projects : CMM2: Any chance of restoring the behaviour of the FILES command?

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Turbo46
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Joined: 24/12/2017
Location: Australia
Posts: 518
Posted: 11:22am 22 May 2020
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I said I'm out but...

INCLUDE is good but not contentious like FILES and LIST FILES. CHAIN is gone too but but may not be missed?

Sorry Peter, you're the boss, but I'm with Tom and CaptainBoing. The "FILES" command in BASIC means "list the files on the current directory" (or where-ever it's pointed to) - not "run the file manager".

It's just a small (but annoying) point but it doesn't diminish my gratitude to you and the team for developing the CMM2. Thank you. I can't wait to get one.

Bill
Keep safe. Live long and prosper.
 
thwill

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Joined: 16/09/2019
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 383
Posted: 11:43am 22 May 2020
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Hi Peter,

  matherp said  My words related to the concept of non keyword commands looking for matching disk files.


Agreed, hence my proposal for the * prefix to enable this functionality - I'm starting to sound like a broken record.

  Quote  As stated above we want to use the command FILES precisely to get people using the filemanager.


I won't deny it makes a certain sense. I still think it is annoying

  Quote  LIST FILES has more functionality than the CMM FILES command as it allows you to set the listing order - shall I remove that for compatibility?


That's a disingenuous question. In what way (ignoring the change in the command) did adding this additional functionality make it not backward compatible?

  Quote  As a compromise I could "rename" LIST FILES as LS but would anyone be happy with that ? DIR can't be used as it is already part of the reserved word list.


I would be happy with that (or CAT), but I can understand how others would not. In any case I've somewhat moved beyond this, hopefully the firmware source will eventually become available (and not depend on some expensive bespoke toolchain) and if I still want to rename a command then I will be able to, provided I don't distribute code depending on that new name.

  Quote  Thus far no-one has talked about the inclusion of INCLUDE files.


Now who is taking the thread off topic

It's wonderful, though its introduction and the lack of LOAD LIBRARY means I will need to write a preprocessor to convert my CMM2 ZMachine back to CMM "Classic". I can live with that.

I have a couple of questions about it though:

1. What happens if I #INCLUDE a file twice? I guess I could test, but I'm not in my shed at the moment.

2. Is there any facility for conditional inclusion, and was it considered? One of the things I did on the CMM "Classic" was load different libraries depending on whether I had set a global DEBUG variable or not. Again not a biggy, I can write a preprocessor if I need to.

Best wishes,

Tom
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matherp
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Joined: 11/12/2012
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 3434
Posted: 12:01pm 22 May 2020
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  Quote  1. What happens if I #INCLUDE a file twice? I guess I could test, but I'm not in my shed at the moment.


It will include twice and then give duplicate name error for duplicated functions. Not worth building a dictionary to cater for this as the error is benign

  Quote   Is there any facility for conditional inclusion, and was it considered? One of the things I did on the CMM "Classic" was load different libraries depending on whether I had set a global DEBUG variable or not. Again not a biggy, I can write a preprocessor if I need to.


Not at them moment but an interesting idea for the future
 
thwill

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Joined: 16/09/2019
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Posts: 383
Posted: 12:28pm 22 May 2020
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Thanks, that's what I expected. I suspect conditional #INCLUDE based on a BASIC variable may be be very difficult given the fancy preprocessor things you are doing, presumably before the BASIC interpreter is running on the code.
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CaptainBoing

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Joined: 07/09/2016
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 1236
Posted: 12:53pm 22 May 2020
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  thwill said  
the Grognard design committee

! how nice.

*** massive thread drift warning ***
  thwill said  
If you had an assembler that allowed more than one opcode per line then you could write exactly that sort of rubbish. ].


But there isn't and you can't - That is exactly my point! And I seriously doubt your abilities to write MMBasic to that level either (though I am sure you'll try, forgive me for not breathlessly anticipating your rebuttal).

And of course that example came from WP, that competition is where I went first click. It  celebrates unintelligible source... Consider Python, it is strongly formatted to prevent exactly this garbage and yet it is the number one most-used language on the planet.

This is genuinely my last post on the subject, your need to dissect everything and try to win is exhausting - in the way a hyper-active child with a plastic trumpet on a trans-atlantic flight is. I am wondering if you are a sock-puppet for another (ex)poster.
 
thwill

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Joined: 16/09/2019
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 383
Posted: 01:03pm 22 May 2020
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  CaptainBoing said  ... in the way a hyper-active child with a plastic trumpet on a trans-atlantic flight is. I am wondering if you are a sock-puppet for another (ex)poster.


Since you've descended to that level you can consider the bozo bit to have been well and truly flipped.

And I'm out too.

Love & Kisses xxx
Download Z-MIM: a Z-machine Interpreter for Colour Maximite 2
 
thwill

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Joined: 16/09/2019
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 383
Posted: 01:19pm 22 May 2020
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OK, sorry, not out:

  Quote  ... Grognard design committee ...


In my world "Grognard" is a term of endearment and respect for the "elder statesmen", no offence meant.

And I'm really out.

Best regards,

Tom
Edited 2020-05-22 23:19 by thwill
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Grogster

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Joined: 31/12/2012
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 7206
Posted: 01:08am 23 May 2020
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....and none was taken.
I understood and took it for what I thought it to mean at the time - a dig at the apparent inflexibility you perceive me to have.

Please do allow me to clarify: It's NOT that I or anyone else involved in the development are unopen to suggestions, it is simply that we are trying to avoid the design-by-committee disaster.  Once you start trying to implement this and that from various other members, it becomes such a mess trying to accommodate everyone, and it turns into a massive headache and the project can stall before it even has its first release.

Perhaps I should have worded it better, along the lines of "For THIS release, the concept and design is fixed."  In other words, in order to get the thing released officially and in to the hands of users, new feature requests are kinda off the table - for now.  Bug-fixes and tweaks to the existing concept only - for now.

This is not to say that suggestions made by members can't or won't EVER be implemented, is it just so we can keep control of the workload with respect to the initial release.

I apologise to any member who thought my comments came off as snobbery or inflexibility, that really was not my intention, more just about not wanting to try to add new features etc at this late stage of things.

BUT, moving forward, there could be a CMM2+ kind of design, which could indeed incorporate some of the suggestions - that is really up to Peter, as he is the lead developer.

I just wanted to be forceful with respect to not allowing this to descend into that much despised design-by-committee nightmare, as I HAVE been there before, and it really is bashing your head against a brick wall kind of feeling.  
Smoke makes things work. When the smoke gets out, it stops!
 
panky

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Joined: 02/10/2012
Location: Australia
Posts: 728
Posted: 02:55am 23 May 2020
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Good thread folks - I totally agree with Poppy as to the quality of this forum - polite and constructive is very definately the way to go.

Don't forget, written communication only represents a small portion of the process of getting one persons thoughts/ideas to another and this is made even worse if there is a second language involved! So, you should assume that a post was meant to be polite/constructive/helpful/thoughtful/inquisitive until confirmed otherwise.

G, very helpful explanation in your last post.

Also, I    "Grognard"        and as just shown, smilecons should help easy the pain if your words don't come out meaning exactly what you meant!

Enjoy, folks
Doug.
... all the Maximites, almost all of the MicromMites, all the MM Extremes, all the ArmMites, and loving it!
 
Grogster

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Joined: 31/12/2012
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 7206
Posted: 05:12am 23 May 2020
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I'm a BIG believer in using similies often - in case the members here have not noticed by now!  
Opps - there I did it again!

There can be quite a bit of interpretation difference between:

"No, that is a stupid idea."
....and....
"No, that is a stupid idea.    "
Smoke makes things work. When the smoke gets out, it stops!
 
thwill

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Joined: 16/09/2019
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 383
Posted: 07:44am 24 May 2020
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Thank you Grogster.
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