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Forum Index : Microcontroller and PC projects : TSynth and Teensy

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damos
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Posted: 11:11pm 09 Mar 2021
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This is a pretty cool synth project:

Synth

It is based on the Teensy module:

Teensy

I wonder how far this is from the CMM2 module code wise? If it is close, it would be wonderful to have a Micromite 3 which is close to the CMM2 in terms of instruction compatibility, but designed for embedded applications. The main change is the display, where you could target 5-8 inch touchscreens (or no display support at all) rather than VGA, and drop all the fancy graphics capabilities. This would allow applications to be developed on a CMM2 and ported to Micromite 3 for production where the VGA display and keyboard is less suitable than a touchscreen.

I know Peter really doesn't want to support yet another module and the plus,  extreme and F4 exist, but this module is closer to what is really good about the Micromite because the footprint is so small and it can fit into any circuit. I use Micromites by the dozen because the are often cheaper than 74HC series chips just for simple I/O expansion and have the advantage that you can also do some preprocessing as well.
 
hitsware2

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Posted: 03:08am 10 Mar 2021
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Does that use the Teensy to produce the sound ,
or only for control ?
my site
 
JohnS
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Posted: 07:39am 10 Mar 2021
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  damos said  It is based on the Teensy module:

Teensy

I wonder how far this is from the CMM2 module code wise?


Vastly different. As Peter has said you would have to write new code for every part of the hardware (clocks, I/O, etc).

Some hundreds of hours, as with any of the other mooted devices.

(This would not have to be the case if hardware makers would make I/O compatible, but they don't because they don't care how much software needs to be completely rewritten.)

John
Edited 2021-03-10 17:41 by JohnS
 
RetroJoe

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Posted: 03:18pm 10 Mar 2021
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@Damos, awesome project - thanks for posting! Wouldn't the ArmmiteF4 be the ideal HW to use as the heart of a "MiteSynth"? It's already got the LCD touchscreen interface, and equivalent price, I/O and raw CPU horsepower as a Teensy board. What exactly are you envisioning? Using MMBasic like PySound running on a Raspberry Pi? BTW, there are some similar DIY synth projects like this based on the RPi.

@Hitsware2, the Teensy is doing the I/O and I believe the bulk of the DSP - I think the Teensy Audio board is just a DAC for high-quality analog output. Maybe that's a HW approach to explore by folks who want to use the Maximite platform for audio applications, but I imagine MMBasic would need to be augmented with CSUBs for anything beyond a "chip tune" synth (e.g. Mauro's awesome work on his virtual sound chip synth engine, which, remarkably, *is* implemented entirely in MMBasic and without dedicated hardware!).
Edited 2021-03-11 01:32 by RetroJoe
Enjoy Every Sandwich / Joe P.
 
damos
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Posted: 01:08am 11 Mar 2021
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Actually I plan to use the module exactly as it is and control multiple modules using a CMM2 or Windows tablet. The use of analog pots makes this project really expensive, so it should be easy to simulate them using 2 DACs. I could change their source to allow settings to be configured through a serial port, but this way allows it to use any future upgrades without constantly maintaining the code. This means that I can eliminate everything in the circuit except the Teensy and the DAC. I will use a micromite to monitor the 4 bit address used on the analog switch and output DAC voltages for the equivalent pot setting. This means that one micromite can handle all the pots and switches in the circuit and can be controlled through a serial port, possibly just monitoring the MIDI.

I have a MIDI keyboard with a lot of knobs, switches and sliders on it (Oxygen 61), so I figure I should just map the MIDI commands from those controls to the controls for the TSynth.

What I would like to have is a bank of TSynth modules (maybe 6). Once you configure a patch and are happy with it, not only do you save it on the SD card, but the CMM2 can push all the settings to the other TSynth modules so they all have the patch in their libraries as well.

I would like to be able to create sequences and direct them to a TSynth. You could create a beat and send it to a module, and while it is playing add bass on a second module and then keep adding layers. It may be better to control with Windows rather than a CMM2, as it will be easier to edit the music data (score, tabs or percussion) on something like a Surface Pro than a CMM2 and you could enable imports from Staffpad or other composition programs. I am not really a musician, but I have a family full of them and I would like to create a seriously cool tool for them to play with.

I think this combo could be extremely good as the TSynth on its own is extremely powerful with 24 voices allowing orchestral sounds as well as all the electronic sounds from a normal analog synth. This means that every instrument can be fully customized, and a bank of 6 TSynths allows you to create a whole band.
 
hitsware2

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Posted: 03:41am 11 Mar 2021
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How do you play a melody ?
Midi ?
my site
 
damos
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Posted: 06:02am 11 Mar 2021
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TSynth already supports the MIDI commands so you can drive it directly from the MIDI keyboard. The issue is then to capture the data and the timing so it can be repeated on CMM2 or PC. I think you could compose on the keyboard and capture simultaneously on the PC, edit it until you are happy with it, then assign it to a TSynth module and play or loop it. You should be able to assign addresses to each of the TSynths and all the layers that are finished just play from the PC using those addresses.

Compose percussion on TS1 using MIDI keyboard and capture on PC.
Edit and assign to TS2
Plays or loops on TS2
Compose bass on TS1
Edit and assign to TS3
Plays or loops percussion on TS2 and bass on TS3
etc

You can load whichever layers you want and then just play it like an instrument using the backing that was previously saved or just use it for composition with the  output of MIDI data which could ultimately be converted to scores. I don't think the editing needs to be sophisticated, but a bit more than a looper pedal.

Staffpad exports to MIDI already, so there is no point in going to far on that side. MusicXML seems to quite widely used as well so the composition and editing side is well and truly covered.

A lot of things have been done really well by others, but this project is unique because it simulates an analog synth but is polyphonic. My ideas just step it up a notch and rather than playing with standard instruments and prerecorded sounds, every sound in synthesized.
 
RetroJoe

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Posted: 01:23pm 11 Mar 2021
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The DAC approach sounds cool and doable, but IMO, not even rotary encoders can substitute for the user experience of physical pots. Especially true for analog synth circuits - every ohm counts :)

Behringer and others make a "bank of knobs" that send MIDI CC messages to soft synths - it's on my bucket list to build one DIY-style with a roomy LCD display and a variety of controllers. I have a really nice MIDI controller keyboard (Novation) that does some of this, but I always run out of knobs, the display is tiny, and the mapping and patch saving is pretty clumsy.

If you haven't come across this mind blowing project, make sure to try it out. Twenty years ago, something like VCV was unobtainable - today, it's free. A remarkable time to be alive for tech-oriented musicians !
Edited 2021-03-11 23:31 by RetroJoe
Enjoy Every Sandwich / Joe P.
 
hitsware2

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Posted: 05:00pm 11 Mar 2021
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  RetroJoe said  
A remarkable time to be alive for tech-oriented musicians !

For Sure !
Software rather than hardware ,
But this ( for my purposes anyways ) is a breakthrough  
my site
 
damos
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Posted: 12:08am 12 Mar 2021
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  RetroJoe said  The DAC approach sounds cool and doable, but IMO, not even rotary encoders can substitute for the user experience of physical pots. Especially true for analog synth circuits - every ohm counts :)

Behringer and others make a "bank of knobs" that send MIDI CC messages to soft synths - it's on my bucket list to build one DIY-style with a roomy LCD display and a variety of controllers. I have a really nice MIDI controller keyboard (Novation) that does some of this, but I always run out of knobs, the display is tiny, and the mapping and patch saving is pretty clumsy.

If you haven't come across this mind blowing project, make sure to try it out. Twenty years ago, something like VCV was unobtainable - today, it's free. A remarkable time to be alive for tech-oriented musicians !


Thanks for this tip. I may use a higher resolution DAC and add some coarse/fine capability.  Even a resistive pot really cannot match the 65536 positions of a 16-bit DAC. I was originally thinking of using digital pots but they tend to have 256 positions and even a cheap DAC can beat that.

I like this because it simulates the analog designs but does not have the endless pain for temperature effects, aging etc, as well as proper polyphony.

The other reason for going digital is being able to edit patches. With pots, even if you recall the saved patch, you cannot edit it because all the pots will be in the wrong positions. With this approach, recalling the patch automatically sets the voltages to that position, but you can continue to play with the patch.
 
RetroJoe

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Posted: 06:38pm 13 Mar 2021
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@hitsware2, I just spent this Saturday morning fiddling with SonicPi on my Mac. From it's name, I thought it was only available on the RPi, but it's available for Windows, OSX and Linux.

Pretty awesome stuff! The "live coding" aspect is not dissimilar to the interpreted BASIC we all know and love :)

Looks like a terrific way to simultaneously teach kids both music and programming concepts, and per the creator (Sam Aaron), it was designed to scale from absolute beginners to professional musicians.

In other words, it's like a real guitar, not a toy "Guitar Hero" one :)

Thanks, and keep on rockin' !!

Joe P.
Enjoy Every Sandwich / Joe P.
 
hitsware2

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Posted: 07:53pm 13 Mar 2021
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  RetroJoe said  Thanks, and keep on rockin' !!Joe P.


You ' re most wellcome  
Yea , SPi started out with RPi , but since
there has been some kind of falling out  
SPi doesn ' t support Linux anymore , and
the latest RPi OS is spotty with SPi .
I put the previous OS ( Stretch ) , with
the version of SPi in the attendent repository
to good use .
Sonic - Pi Spoken Here .....
my site
 
matherp
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Posted: 10:44pm 13 Mar 2021
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  Quote  he latest RPi OS is spotty with SPi .

Interesting,  the Pi-cromite code is clearly not the only code that can't cope with the changing Rpi landscape.
 
hitsware2

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Posted: 01:18am 14 Mar 2021
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  matherp said  
Interesting, the Pi-cromite code is clearly not the only code
that can't cope with the changing Rpi landscape.

For Sure ....
They need to study Bill Gates on ' Backward Compatibility '
The audio was way nice , but they are slowly ruining it .
They claim ' making it more like other Linuxes ' ....
Yuk ... BUT !
One cannot knock success .....
my site
 
RetroJoe

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Posted: 08:17am 14 Mar 2021
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  hitsware2 said   They need to study Bill Gates on ' Backward Compatibility'


You mean Raymond Chen. As this oldie but goodie article explains, he was the guy at MSFT who sweated the details and burned the midnight oil to ensure Windows upgrades didn't break your apps.

Obviously, there is no such person or ethos evident at the Raspberry Pi Foundation. You can say a lot of good things about the RPi ecosystem, but "backwards compatibility" isn't one of them! I guess it comes with the Wild West territory of OSS and Linux.
Enjoy Every Sandwich / Joe P.
 
hitsware2

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Posted: 12:29am 15 Mar 2021
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  RetroJoe said  
oldie but goodie


Reminded me of this :
my site
 
JohnS
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Posted: 11:51am 15 Mar 2021
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  RetroJoe said  
  hitsware2 said   They need to study Bill Gates on ' Backward Compatibility'


You mean Raymond Chen. As this oldie but goodie article explains, he was the guy at MSFT who sweated the details and burned the midnight oil to ensure Windows upgrades didn't break your apps.

Except they made Windows API changes, time after time, that did break apps.

I got to the point where I hated having to write yet more code that figured out which version of Windows it was running on so it could do the same as it used to do (for the user) to work around yet another API foul up ("This is a change by design" - great, no sign of why and heck that API had worked fine for YEARS).

John
 
hitsware2

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Posted: 04:38pm 15 Mar 2021
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  JohnS said  
  RetroJoe said  
  hitsware2 said   They need to study Bill Gates on ' Backward Compatibility'


You mean Raymond Chen. As this oldie but goodie article explains, he was the guy at MSFT who sweated the details and burned the midnight oil to ensure Windows upgrades didn't break your apps.


Except they made Windows API changes, time after time, that did break apps.

Strictly from an end user standpoint ,
Windows did good for a long time ...
A little awkwardness after WIN-98
( post DOS ? ) but what apps I used
worked for years . I would still use
Windows , but for the developed
invasiveness .
my site
 
lizby
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Posted: 05:17pm 15 Mar 2021
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  hitsware2 said  Strictly from an end user standpoint, Windows did good for a long time ...
A little awkwardness after WIN-98 ( post DOS ? ) but what apps I used worked for years


I'm still using EasyCadWin32, ECW32.EXE dated 1998, PaintShopPro, dated 2001, and Microsoft Access 2003.

If it ain't broke . . . (not to say that Windows hasn't at times seemed broke).
PicoMite, Armmite F4, SensorKits, MMBasic Hardware, Games, etc. on fruitoftheshed
 
RetroJoe

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Posted: 02:05am 16 Mar 2021
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Windows releases seemed to follow the same great / not-so-great tick-tock pattern that the Star Trek movies did, with a few total bombs thrown into the mix:

Windows 1,2 and 3 - not so great
Windows 95 - great
Windows 98 - not so great
Windows Me - bomb
Windows XP - great
Windows Vista - bomb
Windows 7 - great
Windows 8 - bomb
Windows 10 - what can you say - it's the end of an era !
Enjoy Every Sandwich / Joe P.
 
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