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Forum Index : Microcontroller and PC projects : Why you should migrate from Linux to BSD....

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Grogster

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Posted: 09:48pm 22 Nov 2021
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It would seem that Linux is falling out of favour with a few people now, due to the kernel now turning into something of a beast of bloatware....

Why you should move from Linux to BSD.

Here I am, just getting used to Linux and migrating from Windoze, and now they are saying you should migrate from Linux to BSD cos of the problems with Linux!  

I can see what they are talking about in that article, especially once commercial interests start thrusting their crap into the kernel, and the Linux kernel is a MONSTER now in code-size compared to what it was earlier.  I guess they call that progress? (rhetorical!)

BSD seems to use pretty much most of the same console language(sic), and most stuff you can install in Linux, runs fine in BSD so I read, so it is not all a downer, but an interesting read I thought.

What do the other members here think?
Smoke makes things work. When the smoke gets out, it stops!
 
JohnS
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Posted: 10:17pm 22 Nov 2021
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It depends on what you want.

E.g. If you want a much (?) smaller system (thus inevitably missing many things), OpenBSD  etc may be for you - or an older Linux or just configure a tiny Linux. Maybe LFS...

I happen to quite like a distro with an easy package manager and a huge choice of packages and when I need or feel like a hardware upgrade I buy an ex-Windoze machine (to which I may add RAM). I don't care about bloat for that system. It's likely a slow machine under Windoze but very fast under Linux.

But that may not suit someone else at all and maybe a BSD variant would.

John
 
Grogster

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Posted: 10:28pm 22 Nov 2021
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I suppose I should clarify: I don't plan to move my Linux boxes to BSD, I was just interested in the article.

I might have a play with BSD such as NomadBSD which boots into a GUI from a USB stick.
ALL my machines that were running Windoze and are now on a mixture of Mint and Puppy, all work perfectly and much better/faster on Linux then Windoze, so yeah - I am not planning to migrate again to BSD anytime soon.
Smoke makes things work. When the smoke gets out, it stops!
 
lizby
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Posted: 10:29pm 22 Nov 2021
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"When software gets bloated it not only becomes more insecure and more error prone, but it also becomes much slower."

Is "slower" actually a problem that we have to worry about these days--at least for those of us running on PCs and not in a multi-user environment (if those still exist in the manner they did when Unix was first developed (other than for servers))?

Even with "bloated" Win10 software, my 16GB Dell Latitude E6430 laptop, first introduced in 2013 I believe, has no problems running with 5 browsers open, over 50 browser tabs, 6 editors with 54 documents open, and 9 additional programs with multiple instances. Right now Task Manager says I have 30% CPU usage, 64% memory usage, and 1% disk and network usage.

He quotes Torvalds in 2014 saying "We've been bloating the kernel over the last 20 years, but hardware has grown faster" and then chides: "This is a very problematic attitude." But is it, for the vast majority of users?

And then he quotes grouses that people had in 2005 and 2007.

In my opinion (since you asked for it), except in very particular circumstances, much ado about nothing.

(Anyway, I mostly use Linux or a derivative (openWrt) headless on little devices--Dockstar, TP-Link WR703N, Pi Zero W, so BSD will never happen for me.)
 
SimpleSafeName

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Posted: 12:37am 23 Nov 2021
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Man I haven't heard this argument since the 90's. :)

The BSD guys were a bit put out because they felt that their system was getting pushed aside in favor of Linux. Back then it was the inherent "bugginess" of Linux.

They were correct in that BSD was falling out of favor (at the time anyway, they seem to have survived), largely (IMHO) because of their license.

So in every Linux book back then came the chapter right after the one showing how to install Linux, which detailed how to customize your kernel and pull out stuff that you didn't need.

I presume that is still an option. :)
Edited 2021-11-23 10:37 by SimpleSafeName
 
robert.rozee
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Posted: 02:31am 23 Nov 2021
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briefly skimmed the article, but around 2/3 of the way down spotted:

      "[...] I must also admit that I suspect systemd to be a platform for introducing security holes into the Linux operating system. These will of course look like normal "programming mistakes", however some of these bugs resembles what happened with the OpenSSL Heartbleed bug quite a lot. And it is a well know strategy used in the open source community, to use "programming mistakes" to create backdoors and other issues".

sounds just a tad paranoid. can i see those black unmarked helicopters coming over the horizon?    


cheers,
rob   :-)
Edited 2021-11-23 12:32 by robert.rozee
 
Mixtel90

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Posted: 02:27pm 23 Nov 2021
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I'm not sure about systemd, Rob. It seems to be very clever - maybe too clever for its own good. It's certainly not as simple in concept as the init system. In that respect I think BSD *might* be right in keeping away from it.
-- Mick

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LeoNicolas

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Joined: 07/10/2020
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Posted: 02:52pm 23 Nov 2021
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You should not.
Most part of the size of the Linux code is related to drivers, what not happen with OpenBSD. OpenBSD is an amazing OS for more specific tasks (eg.: as a firewall) but is not so good dealing with the huge amount of different peripherals we have on the market.

Regarding performance, the Linux kernel is extremely fast, lightweight and optimized. The other softwares around the Kernel are part of the distribution and they can be replaced (eg.: Systemd, shell, server, etc)

A good example is a distro called Tiny Core  that you can install on very very old PCs:

16MB with only the graphic interface.
163MB the full distro
Edited 2021-11-24 00:53 by LeoNicolas
 
hitsware2

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Posted: 04:13pm 23 Nov 2021
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For the same reason you should switch
from Intel to Arm ...
http://www.hitswares.com/
 
Grogster

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Posted: 11:58pm 23 Nov 2021
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Thanks everyone for the comments.  Interesting topic.
Sorry if this is dragging up an old argument(Linux vs BSD), but as I have only really become much more interested in Linux in the last couple of years, I knew nothing about that.  Certainly not wishing to reopen old wounds with any members here with respect to that.

What DOES surprise me a little, is that Linus himself still says that Linux is not ready for the desktop.  I can't agree with that.  Mint is one of the most popular distros for desktops, and millions of people run it and love it(I'm one of those) cos it is easy to migrate to from Windoze - but the man at the top still thinks Linux is not ready for the desktop after all this time and all this development - that's a strange take - to me.

Anyone want to comment on that?
Smoke makes things work. When the smoke gets out, it stops!
 
hitsware2

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Posted: 01:02am 24 Nov 2021
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What does Linus think it lacks ?
Compared to Windows, or as an ideal ?
http://www.hitswares.com/
 
Grogster

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Posted: 04:45am 24 Nov 2021
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He just says that it "Linux is not ready for the desktop yet." - without elaborating on why in the video I watched.  Perhaps it was an old video?
Smoke makes things work. When the smoke gets out, it stops!
 
phil99
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Joined: 11/02/2018
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Posted: 06:22am 24 Nov 2021
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"He just says that it "Linux is not ready for the desktop yet." -"
My guess is that he regards a Windows box as an appliance that anybody can just plug in and use. If nothing goes wrong they need know almost nothing about computers. Some Linux distributions are close to that (eg Mint), but usually some prior knowledge about how it works helps.
 
Mixtel90

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Posted: 08:04am 24 Nov 2021
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I'm not certain that linux can ever be "ready for he desktop". At that stage an OS hasn't to be as good as Windows, it has to be so much better than Windows that hardware and software producers want to make stuff for it. The killer applications like Photoshop and AutoCAD need to be producing versions for it. It has to have so much in it that Windows hasn't got that it makes it the OS of choice. At the moment linux is still playing catch-up in a lot of ways.

I'm not even certain that linux should even attempt this. I'm not sure that it's a good target to aim for. It certainly wouldn't be the linux that we have now - it would look and behave more Windows than Windows. IMHO it's far better to stay on the current path and let users decide whether or not they would gain from using it. If enough find that they are happy with it with a little adaptation then it's a case of the users adapting to it rather than it being adapted to them - which is the right way to do things in linux.
-- Mick

Zilog Inside! nascom.info for Nascom & Gemini
 
JohnS
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Posted: 08:55am 24 Nov 2021
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  hitsware2 said  For the same reason you should switch
from Intel to Arm ...

Good point!

Or, at least avoid any recent Intel system with such as ME (Management Engine, basically an insecure backdoor).

Also, avoid the Intel CPU bugs (Meltdown, SPECTRE etc).

(I suppose *BSD are affected by the above.)

Depends how paranoid (?) one is...

For me, Linux is "good enough" and hasn't caused me the grief I got too often with Windows so although I'm aware of *BSD I've stayed with Linux.

(I'm ignoring the VAX-based BSD.)

John
 
Volhout
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Posted: 09:48am 24 Nov 2021
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  hitsware2 said  For the same reason you should switch
from Intel to Arm ...


Why ? Do you think the Chineese/Taiwaneese (chipmakers) are a safer bet than the Americans ?? I think the main good thing in Intel is that it is NOT chineese.
And the Intel architecture is so mature at this moment that it is hard to further improve.
It is like with diesel cars. They are at the moment in bad daylight, but fact is they have the best fuel economy of all cars, and drive great.

Volhout

I didn't try BSD yet, but might soon. I am not sure how compatible BSD is with the varietey of hardware out there. Linux already has a hard time keeping up. But since BSD is the foundation of MAC-OSX, Apple hardware may be supported well.
Edited 2021-11-24 19:51 by Volhout
If nothing goes right ... turn left
 
JohnS
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Posted: 09:56am 24 Nov 2021
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  ricardos said  After writing a software design document, it's a good idea to review it with stakeholders

Maybe so but you look to be spamming!

John
 
Gizmo

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Posted: 11:26am 24 Nov 2021
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Thanks for the heads on user ricardos, yes, he was a spammer. His posts have been deleted ( couple in this thread ) and his account killed.


Glenn
The best time to plant a tree was twenty years ago, the second best time is right now.
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Grogster

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Posted: 10:52pm 24 Nov 2021
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Excellent points about the desktop thing.  Had not considered it from that point of view.
Smoke makes things work. When the smoke gets out, it stops!
 
SimpleSafeName

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Posted: 02:48am 25 Nov 2021
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I don't know about the whole unready/unfit for the desktop argument, it depends on your needs.

I do know that without fail Linux distros manage to fix two things while breaking one thing in every release. Get used to it. But at least X windows works out of the box these days...


Linux user since 1997. Yggdrasil & Slackware were my first distros (37 1.44M floppies for the Slackware install). Then Redhat (including using the "Redneck" install option before Redhat had to take themselves more seriously). SuSE for a very long time (very good distro). Ubuntu, and then Mint with several other distros in between. Pretty much just Mint these days.
 
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