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Forum Index : Microcontroller and PC projects : Let's discuss reducing the number of active MMBasic designs
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thwill Guru  Joined: 16/09/2019 Location: United KingdomPosts: 4281 |
Spun off from https://www.thebackshed.com/forum/ViewTopic.php?FID=16&TID=18012&LastEntry=Y#240496#240496 This is all somewhat subject to what Peter does, but ... We are a small community (especially the Boot to BASIC retro-computer contingent) and the current plethora of designs is a bane rather than a boon to software development. Let's discuss reducing our target platforms to: - RP2350 PicoMite (which is what the Game*Mite, PicoGamer and PicoCalc are) - RP2350 WebMite - RP2350 HDMIUSB And I exclude the Colour Maximite 2 with great reluctance - sorry @PeteCotton - if someone has a spare Peter somewhere I'd be harassing him to update the Colour Maximite 2 to provide a PicoMiteHDMIUSB compatibility mode. Thoughts ? Tom Edited 2025-06-08 21:25 by thwill MMBasic for Linux, Game*Mite, CMM2 Welcome Tape, Creaky old text adventures |
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| dddns Guru Joined: 20/09/2024 Location: GermanyPosts: 450 |
I would want to have PSRAM especially for graphics and artwork. Out of heap is then history too. |
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| matherp Guru Joined: 11/12/2012 Location: United KingdomPosts: 10158 |
My "off-topic" post All the versions do, and will, support the RP2350A and B and PSRAM. I am thinking of making much more use of PSRAM for framebuffer use (PicoMite/WebMite - too slow for HDMI) but this is subject to testing that it doesn't kill the QMI bus. |
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Mixtel90 Guru Joined: 05/10/2019 Location: United KingdomPosts: 7735 |
IMHO the CMM2 suffers from one thing, cost. Even the latest version isn't exactly cheap - certainly not when compared to a Pico 2 system. You can have a Pico 2 system with better video and better sound for a lot less than the cost of a CMM2. It's just newer technology. Our small community isn't made up from "gamers" with deep pockets. In fact, I think that applies to much of the retro-gaming community. I know I had to think twice and budget for my CMM2 (the version with the Waveshare module). The Pico family have a lot of attraction, even without the faster speed and greater RAM capacity of the CMM2. Basically, if you want performance and don't mind the cost go for CMM2. If you want to attract a bigger number of users, by not putting them off with the cost, go for the Pico - more precisely, the RP2350 versions. If you *insist* on PSRAM and HDMI reliability then that leaves only custom SMD boards. I don't think there are any other options. I think that narrows the field too much for general gaming. I'd much rather stick to the Pico format and omit PSRAM. . Edited 2025-06-08 21:52 by Mixtel90 Mick Zilog Inside! nascom.info for Nascom & Gemini Preliminary MMBasic docs & my PCB designs |
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| dddns Guru Joined: 20/09/2024 Location: GermanyPosts: 450 |
2350A or B are about the same price. If you are going to plan a (game)console device, I would only go for the 2350B and and a nice port for a "docking station" etc. |
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| Mixtel90 Guru Joined: 05/10/2019 Location: United KingdomPosts: 7735 |
But there are no "official" RP2350B through-hole or human-solderable SMD products. It wouldn't be something you could construct. You may as well go out and buy a commercial console. Mick Zilog Inside! nascom.info for Nascom & Gemini Preliminary MMBasic docs & my PCB designs |
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| dddns Guru Joined: 20/09/2024 Location: GermanyPosts: 450 |
As I said, I'm not sure what device this is going to be, but a new reference design seems to be necessary in any case around whatever processor. Or do you consider to tinker?? |
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| Mixtel90 Guru Joined: 05/10/2019 Location: United KingdomPosts: 7735 |
Personally I'd much rather be able to build a board than buy one of someone else's designs. I happen to like soldering. :) As a games system you don't need the GPIO of the RP2350B. If Raspberry Pi had put PSRAM on the Pico 2 then it would have probably been ideal, but given that they didn't I'll just sacrifice the PSRAM. If the PSRAM is a necessity for something then I simply wont follow that path. :) Mick Zilog Inside! nascom.info for Nascom & Gemini Preliminary MMBasic docs & my PCB designs |
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stanleyella Guru Joined: 25/06/2022 Location: United KingdomPosts: 2485 |
what's psram? no don't bother. is 2350b fully supported by mmbasic and is just has more gp pins? any reason it won't work on strip board or is it not just a longer 2350a/pico 2 board? there's other 32 bit boards but don't have mmbasic and 2350 is cheap. well cheap in uk. it's all graphics, not object avoiding robots anymore. |
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| dddns Guru Joined: 20/09/2024 Location: GermanyPosts: 450 |
You got the point @Stan. If I would want to use PicoMite for a specific project, I would of cause consider using a RP2040. But many here seem to use it as a "Workstation" with amazing graphical abilities. So this is for me a very valid aspect. I would only consider a 2350 with PSRAM. The same for the a hand held device. In this case the topic is even more the display. |
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| robert.rozee Guru Joined: 31/12/2012 Location: New ZealandPosts: 2417 |
there is this: https://www.lectronz.com/products/rp2350-stamp-xl and a 2.54mm pitch adapter: https://www.lectronz.com/products/rp2xxx-stamp-carrier-basic given the extremely competitive price of the RP2350 Stamp XL (nz$12), it would seem to be a good candidate for use at the centre of any future pico-based boot-to-basic designs. HOWEVER, there is also the Raspberry Pi Zero 2W, that from the mmbasic/B2B/gaming perspective has: - effectively infinite RAM (512mb) - true HDMI video output - full USB support for attached devices - Cortex A53 processor clocked at 1GHz - bluetooth and wifi all for less than nz$35. running MMB4L this is hard to beat! for a number of years i have carried out 'thought experiments' with B2B designs, but always end up circling back to the Zero and/or Model A+. cheers, rob :-) |
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| thwill Guru Joined: 16/09/2019 Location: United KingdomPosts: 4281 |
We will get nowhere if you start persuading us to be "sensible" Rob  ... or even worse I'll be expected to figure out how to get a Pi Zero to fast-boot with MMB4L to full-screen MMBasic  .Best wishes, Tom MMBasic for Linux, Game*Mite, CMM2 Welcome Tape, Creaky old text adventures |
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| robert.rozee Guru Joined: 31/12/2012 Location: New ZealandPosts: 2417 |
well, i'm led to believe that a zero 2W, with a few tweaks, can be booted in around 8 seconds. see, for example: https://medium.com/@awarlt12207/how-fast-can-a-raspberry-pi-zero-2w-boot-8614de1cbd64 i take it you'd be happy with just a fixed frame-buffer to access the screen?  cheers, rob :-) |
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| thwill Guru Joined: 16/09/2019 Location: United KingdomPosts: 4281 |
Actually MMB4L uses SDL2 which is why an Android version might be possible in the future ... and to add to the confusion an "MMBasic for Linux for Windows" ;-). But, what I'd be happiest with is, to continue not to feel any obligation to do any of this .Best wishes, Tom MMBasic for Linux, Game*Mite, CMM2 Welcome Tape, Creaky old text adventures |
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| Mixtel90 Guru Joined: 05/10/2019 Location: United KingdomPosts: 7735 |
There is no "official", as in "supported by Raspberry Pi" module of any sort using the RP2350B. That means you are depending on what could be a tiny company with, quite possibly, no backup. "It meets the RPi specs, guvnor! Not our fault if you can't use high res DVI or run MMBasic on it!". As PSRAM can only "officially" be used with the separate, "impossible for a human to solder" RP2350B chip because of that, it makes it unsuitable for me. The Pico 2 is far better than the original Pico for a games system. More flash, more RAM, more power, lower power consumption. And the same pinout. If you are using a LCD display you get all the HSTX pins back so it's identical in that respect too. I wouldn't even consider the RP2040 for this application now. There's no point. It's near enough the same price too, unlike the various RP2350B modules that start at twice the cost. VGA output from the Pico 2 is fine, but I'd much rather fit a game console with HDMI as it's more versatile. There can't be that many people now that have no access to an HDMI display. And it's just as easy/difficult to use HDMI as it is VGA when you are breadboarding now. Neither are breadboard friendly! Mick Zilog Inside! nascom.info for Nascom & Gemini Preliminary MMBasic docs & my PCB designs |
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| Volhout Guru Joined: 05/03/2018 Location: NetherlandsPosts: 4975 |
Tom, I agree 100% with the limitations proposed. 1/ Stop further 2040 development (*). With VGA it is at the limits of what the poor chip can do, mainly due to lack of more memory. And this build drags a whole lot of legacy with it (mainly due my sh*tty programming skills). 2/ Limit 2350 at PicoMite, WebMite and PicoHDMIUSB(**). Volhout (*)= I thought this moment arrived at 5.09.00rc5, but Peter squeezed 2 full releases out of it still. (**)= I do hope consumer timings (50Hz) on HDMI get included in future releases. My (Philips) TV in the living room can only show 640x480 in 60Hz. Other resolutions are all 50Hz. And 640x480 is not wide screen, but the TV is. So there is no gaming in the livingroom. PicomiteVGA PETSCII ROBOTS |
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| matherp Guru Joined: 11/12/2012 Location: United KingdomPosts: 10158 |
Yes there is |
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| Amnesie Guru Joined: 30/06/2020 Location: GermanyPosts: 554 |
Hmm I stick to the VGA version. I don't like the fact that HDMI isn't working on all monitors + routing the traces is critical. And yes I do know that it works on most monitors, even with cheap self built breakoutboards and even hard wiring. I tried it by myself with success. All that I am well aware of. But the main drawback of HDMI version is: - it does need a (higher) CPU overclock to work - it doesn't work on all HDMI monitors (remember my official Raspberry Pi monitor desaster!) - there is no THT, only SMD (I don't like to rely on breakout boards) - almost every HDMI monitor and even some TV's have VGA connectivity! this is just my opinion  Even if Peter decides to not do any further development to the VGA-version of the pico, I will stick to it, no matter what. It fits my needs perfectly. One more thing I really like: the current state of the software allows it to use the pico 1 & pico 2 on my very same (own designed) PCB. This is a HUGE benefit if there will ever be a chip shortage we have seen in the COVID times. Just throw any Pico into the board and flash it with the proper MMBASIC version and we are good to go! If / when (?) the picoMite software is cured from bugs and reaches a final state, I am more than happy with it for years to come. Let's be all honest, there is so much funcionality and so much POWER in this interpreter - I don't have all the time to discover all of it! For more graphical demanding applications there is still the colour maximite 2! But to be honest (I had the original and the CMM2!) I like the pico way more. I think this is mostly up to the money the STM-board costs... I've burned two boards due to my dumb experiments with high voltage (geiger counters) .. If I burn a pico 1 or 2 it doesn't bother me at all... Just put a new one inside .. dirt cheap! Greetings Daniel |
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phil99 Guru Joined: 11/02/2018 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2535 |
[An unhelpful rant] History repeats! The whole reason retro computing has to be recreated is because almost everyone threw out the originals when better things came along. Now you are throwing out the RP2040 because a better thing has come along. The RP2040 is already better than the originals so why do you want more? Well your PC and phone have more. Use them! [/An unhelpful rant] |
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| Amnesie Guru Joined: 30/06/2020 Location: GermanyPosts: 554 |
Exactly, this is my feeling too. That's why I said: I don't need any better or more. This work, this MMBASIC interpreter by Geoff & Peter is insane! I still know the day I discovered the geoff website with the MMBASIC interpreter. I can't believe that such cool thing exists - for free! It is just impressive what work and passion geoff and peter put into this. Let's lean back and be happy with all those things we can do with it!  Greetings Daniel |
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