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Forum Index : Microcontroller and PC projects : Still Problem with MM+ WIN10/ USB Console
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atmega8 Guru  Joined: 19/11/2013 Location: GermanyPosts: 724 |
Hi, we still have the Problem with MM+ WIN 10 and the USB Console with Terraterm. When resetting the MM+, you have to close Terraterm, unplug/plug the USB Console and start Terratem again, to get the MM Banner. With Standard COM Console and a USB/TTL (FTDI or similar) this Problem doesn't exist. So this must be a Problem with the USB Implementation of Microchip. Will there ever be a solution for this? THX |
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| matherp Guru Joined: 11/12/2012 Location: United KingdomPosts: 10254 |
With your FTDI USB/TTL, unplug the usb connection while teraterm is running and then plug it back in. It won't reconnect until you restart teraterm (or use the previously published reconnection protocol). This is exactly the same as resetting the Micromite. Resetting breaks the USB connection in the same way as unplugging. This is nothing to do with Microchip just the way USB works. |
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MicroBlocks Guru Joined: 12/05/2012 Location: ThailandPosts: 2209 |
In teraterm choose close connection and then new connection. It is one of the rasons i like a separate USB-Serial as then you can just reset the uMite and keep the USB connection alive. Microblocks. Build with logic. |
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Grogster Admin Group  Joined: 31/12/2012 Location: New ZealandPosts: 9594 |
Agreed. I am warming to that idea myself, as the constant CTRL+F1 TT resets or unplugging/restarting TT/replugging is getting on my nerves, it is safe to say.  Smoke makes things work. When the smoke gets out, it stops! |
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| robert.rozee Guru Joined: 31/12/2012 Location: New ZealandPosts: 2437 |
what would be the cost (monetary and otherwise) of simply placing a CH340G on every MM+ board? cheers, rob :-) |
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| Grogster Admin Group Joined: 31/12/2012 Location: New ZealandPosts: 9594 |
It would be more expensive then the modular 340 adpators are. 
You can buy complete 340 USB-serial adaptors for one buck fifty - and that's in OUR money, Rob.... CH340 USB-serial thing I would be inclined to think that if the Microchip USB handler in the code is being difficult, perhaps we could just not include the on-board USB on the MM+ and point users to these super-cheap adaptors - which can stay plugged in at the USB end - preventing these USB problems totally. I think I will get a couple of these to play with - at that price, you can't really go wrong. Smoke makes things work. When the smoke gets out, it stops! |
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| matherp Guru Joined: 11/12/2012 Location: United KingdomPosts: 10254 |
You can buy SOIC PIC16F1455 at $1.19 in 100 off quantities from Mouser. Add Microblocks software, 2 capacitors, a resistor and a switch and you have a fast rock-solid USB I/F that can also update the MM firmware using Rob's version of pic32prog. To me this is a no-brainer, no issues with resetting the MM, no need for PicKits, easy on-site firmware upgrades, and if you save the MM firmware with the Basic code loaded then you can use this as a way to field upgrade the Basic program as well. |
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| atmega8 Guru Joined: 19/11/2013 Location: GermanyPosts: 724 |
Hi, i don't agree to Peter, as all the others here;-). As i remember in WIN 7 this behaviour doesn't exist (all WIN 10 now here) ?! So it is not wrong, that the reason is the Microchip USB Implementation? |
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| robert.rozee Guru Joined: 31/12/2012 Location: New ZealandPosts: 2437 |
[in response to grogster's post showing a CH340G module for $1.50] true, that price would be almost impossible to beat! but from my tinkerings with arduino nano's i have come to appreciate the convenience of having a USB socket right there on the board. then again, an MM+ is a very different beast to a nano. one could perhaps replace the mini USB socket with a 4-way header (TxD, RxD, +5v, gnd). then at least there would be a dedicated console connector. perhaps something for geoff to offer his views on. cheers, rob :-) addendum: matherp does make a good point. there are a few small issues that may need to be addressed, but in principal a good idea. |
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| Grogster Admin Group Joined: 31/12/2012 Location: New ZealandPosts: 9594 |
I was thinking that perhaps we could POSSIBLY make use of a 6p box header on the edge of the board. This would mean that all MM-based projects could use the same standard header, and then perhaps paired up with MicroBlocks' PIC16F1455, you would have a serial console AND an ICSP connection, all on the one cable, and one USB adaptor. The box header would still allow you to use individual jumper leads if you wanted to for other console connections and/or the ICSP. The one box header would provide console TXD/RXD, ICSP PGD/PGC and Vbus(or 3v3) and Ground. @ MicroBlocks: Is the hex file for the 16F1455 available from you, or do you just supply the chips pre-programmed? I have been reading the thread about your chip, but I can't see anything about that. There is no way this could compete with the price of the 340's I linked to above, but I don't think it would be THAT costly even in comparison with the 340 module. Thoughts? EDIT: @ matherp - I missed your post, and looks like we have had similar ideas.
@ atmega8 - I have a W10 machine, but I am still running 8.1, and I think many others will NOT be using W10. From what I can gather, the problem is with the USB module in the PIC32MX470 in that it handles the VCP to the computer, but if there is a crash or otherwise needing you to press reset, this upsets the USB connection to the computer, and you have to reset the USB connection to get things talking again. I don't know if there would ever be an easy fix for that, as this is all done by the USB module in the MCU - not sure if MMBASIC has any say over that whatsoever. I expect that MMBASIC just sees the USB module as another COM port, which is reserved for it to use as the console. Just guessing though. Smoke makes things work. When the smoke gets out, it stops! |
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| robert.rozee Guru Joined: 31/12/2012 Location: New ZealandPosts: 2437 |
you need MCLR as well, effectively taking you to 4x2, and i believe you may find that 5x2 is a more standard size. you may also want to bring out MCLR, PGC and PGD from the 1455 as well, taking you up to 10 pins anyway. cheers, rob :-) |
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| Grogster Admin Group Joined: 31/12/2012 Location: New ZealandPosts: 9594 |
D'OH!!!! 
MCLR - I knew that, I was just testing ya!
(i didn't really - i had forgotten about it!) 5x2 I use on my amp project among other things. It would fit on the MM+ board, but this is all up in the air at the moment - just tossing ideas about the place. Smoke makes things work. When the smoke gets out, it stops! |
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| matherp Guru Joined: 11/12/2012 Location: United KingdomPosts: 10254 |
Are you talking about Microchip or Microsoft? My view FWIW is that the USB implementation in W10 is better than W7. However, my original point applies; resetting the MM+ is exactly the same as unplugging and replugging a USB cable on any other sort of USB/TTL convertor. It completely stops the USB handling while the MM+ restarts. To recover from this you must disconnect in teraterm and reconnect. |
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| robert.rozee Guru Joined: 31/12/2012 Location: New ZealandPosts: 2437 |
it just occurred to me, if you drop USB from the MX470 then you can eliminate the crystal - a cost saving as well as freeing up a couple more pins. |
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| Grogster Admin Group Joined: 31/12/2012 Location: New ZealandPosts: 9594 |
Can you, though? I thought the crystal was a requirement for the 470 part for aspects of MMBASIC other then the USB? Smoke makes things work. When the smoke gets out, it stops! |
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| matherp Guru Joined: 11/12/2012 Location: United KingdomPosts: 10254 |
Perfectly doable. The only downside is you are then limited to 96MHz |
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| MicroBlocks Guru Joined: 12/05/2012 Location: ThailandPosts: 2209 |
@Grogster and others. I am willing to provide the hex file to anyone who makes/designs a MM pcb for free. The full source code however i would need to keep closed. The icsp-ascii part is already posted here on this forum so that part can be used by anyone interested in it. The source that is based on microchips USB library is not open source so i can not publish that. However anyone with a microchip compiler can use those libraries so it should not be an obstacle. The code is pretty stable and works great until 115200 baud. Got some reports that higher then that does not work although i did not have that problem myself. I suspect a sensitivity to cable length or it is just a bit too fast to stay within specs for that baudrate without using a crystal. If someone can test higher speeds, that would be great. The price i ask for a preprogrammed chip is 4.95 USD, shipping is 2USD. For quantities ask for a good deal. :) The little module i designed is delayed as pcb production/assembly was unsatisfactory and i have decided to do that part myself. Microblocks. Build with logic. |
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| atmega8 Guru Joined: 19/11/2013 Location: GermanyPosts: 724 |
OK, i used a serial to ttl usb FTDI (original  ) and connected it to the console COM4.
It also provides the +5 V for the Explorer 64 board. This works absolutely fine, you can reset it, use a watchdog or whatever reset method. The console is working in all situations. ByeBye USB... |
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| MicroBlocks Guru Joined: 12/05/2012 Location: ThailandPosts: 2209 |
Yes, so much more convenient to use. I personally think a USB-Serial is a much better way to have the console and use the USB hardware inside the pic for something like a keyboard or memorystick. That is however very hard to code unfortunately. I think a keyboard should be possible as the HID protocol is the simpler protocol. Microblocks. Build with logic. |
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| Grogster Admin Group Joined: 31/12/2012 Location: New ZealandPosts: 9594 |
I would love to hear Geoff's thoughts on all this at this point in time.... Smoke makes things work. When the smoke gets out, it stops! |
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