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KarlJ Guru Joined: 19/05/2008 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1178
Posted: 11:52am 24 Dec 2009
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Grid connect as far as I'm aware the power company does not care what is upstream of the inverter, feed it with whatever you like,wind, water, sun etc. funny how things have changed.
Had Xmas drinks with a bloke tonight who had a ~2KW mill 20 odd years ago, was told that unless he took it down they wouldn't connect his property to the grid at all...
I think as long as you adhere to some reasonable practices you wont get into trouble in the upstream part either.
ie should put your cables to the mill in conduit and buried 600mm if in a traffic area and 400mm if in a non traffic area.
Protect everything with circuit breakers EG 48V battery bank needs a fuse at the battery and mill end to protect it in case of short circuit, dont want bateries blowing up in your face!
A 700W mill doesnt sound nasty but it can be in careless hands. EG blown breaker for reasons unknown, grid down, CAPS on the mill running flat out and now lethal voltages in the cable.
Try to think of every possible scenario and make precautions to handle it
use the experience of the guys here.
EG
OZtules can manage to feed it in with a handfull of scraps from round the farm!
Luck favours the well prepared
Downwind Guru Joined: 09/09/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2333
Posted: 12:10pm 24 Dec 2009
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If you have a solar system that you claimed a rebate on is it allowable to add a mill to the system as well ?
Pete.Sometimes it just works
KarlJ Guru Joined: 19/05/2008 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1178
Posted: 01:57pm 24 Dec 2009
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Good question and the answer is YES you can claim REC's for the wind component, however the question is how many RECs
1 REC is equal to 1MW of output which is 1000KW.
so a 750W turbine using the 80/20 rule =3.6 KW/hr/day.
on these maths would be eligible for 6.5 RECs over the 5 year redeeming period or 19.5 RECS over the 15 years redeeming period.
Thus would pay you 19x $32 = a whopping $608.
UNLESS- you had data -say a years worth to support an output higher than this.
In short, collect the feed-in tarrif at 0.66c and if they don't or wont pay then go see A current affair and complain miserably.
your 19500KW hrs into the grid should be worth $12800 in feed in money OR about $4K in non-feed in tarrif rate over 15years so we arent going to make a living from an F&P any time soon.
I note on one of Phill's posts the dual stator is making 370W in 17KM/hr breeze and has made on occasion 4KW /day
and his site would be classed as low wind, thus if you have more could be feasible to see 5-6KW on a daily basis all things being equal.
Im not sure how windy it needs to be to get 750W but im thinking in the order of 8m/s or 28KM/hr which is only 15 knots in the old money.
Luck favours the well prepared
RevUpWind Regular Member Joined: 03/05/2008 Location: AustraliaPosts: 60
Posted: 11:30am 25 Dec 2009
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Where is the tariff 0.66? In Qld it is 0.44.
Have two F&P's +10 1.75W solar panels and over my first complete quarter managed a credit of just under $100.
Is a 12v system that on a use when have enough wind can run shed and fridge in house most of day. Can only guess how much the mills add but would be a bit.
Am wondering what happens to the credit balance, maybe the cheque is in the mail.
Question re solar grid feed. If only using 1.75W of 3KW Fronius inverter, is it possible with a 48volt system to feed through the same inverter?
Thanks to all and Wish All A Blessed Christmas and New Year. Peter
....River Heads - Australia
The wind blows wherever it wishes; you hear the sound it makes, but you do not know where it comes from or where it is going.
Downwind Guru Joined: 09/09/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2333
Posted: 12:10pm 25 Dec 2009
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MeRrrY cHriSt mass alll. Hic,
Heres a thought.
The power used by an average fridge is huge and as a friend of mine who lives off grid found out quickly.
Within a month they realized how hungary the fridge was on power and decided to turf it out and buy an energy efficent fridge. (they cant rate it high enough)
I am not sure on the brand but it was purchased through Solaris here in Adelaide. (do a search)
For a 75% saving from the fridge consumtion it would be $$$ in credit.
So piss the fridge off and replace it with a energy efficent one.
The dollars we pay to run a fridge and in a lot of cases its due to poor seals in the door and an inefficent design.
If you calculated it out i think a upgrade in fridges would be as much rewarding as bigger turbines and extra solar panels
Pete.Sometimes it just works
KarlJ Guru Joined: 19/05/2008 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1178
Posted: 12:56pm 25 Dec 2009
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I think if you are only running 1.75W into 3KW inverter you have LOTS and lots of space for wind, perhaps you meant 1.75KW or 1750W Where the problem lies here is in voltage matching.
10 panels are probably wired in series giving around 300V.
To match this with any success so one doesn't stop the other is going to be really tough.
If the wind makes 320V (60S unrewired perhaps) then you will get 300W from the wind and the solar input will then be nill
Stand alone systems or battery based systems are the only options I'm afraid. Gordon is the expert here.
Speaking of fridges we covered it here about 6months ago, I added foam to the sides of the freezer to insulate it better and improved its useage by half!
Doesnt work with fridges that have the hot part in the sides (god knows why they design some of them that way.
Ecoinnovation have a variable transformer 3 phase that would do the job but for simplicity I think a night day switch would be the most cost effective compromise, just need it to be windy predominantly at night.
0.66c feed in tarrif is Vic and some other states, check out www.energymatters.com.au for who gets what, I know those in ACT get it best (and gross feed in model too)
inverter kinda needs to be special to handle a wind turbine, different software etc -hence windy boy and sunny boy from SMA. POWERONE also do lots of wind inverters.
For me I'm going the Latronics because its proven and dad wont let me use a 600W plug in regular outlet job from ebay, I believe that idea has lots of potential and for $200 to find out, surely has to be worth a look.
thinking you'd be explaining to the power company how moonlight is good for a few hundred watts!!!
I agree with Pete but its expensive to upgrade everything to lower energy use at the same time hence, just look for the best you can find when the time comes.
Laptop vs PC, inverter Aircon over regular etc.
I also did the math on inverter Aircon vs regular and unfortunately the technology was new at the time and the $1000 difference in price would not be recouped in the life of the unit but things have changed now and the price gap much less.
Biggest killer I have is the pool, just have to run that 1.5hp pump 6hrs+ in summer and 1hr in winter, I run the chlorinator flat out and run the pump long enough to keep the chlorine at the right level, its a balancing act between clean and green (the pool that is!) Occasionally I give it an overnight to clear it up with some crystal clear which causes the fine particles to bind together and be able to be more efficiently filtered out.
Dishwashers are also a big killer, I just bought a new one and it uses a little less than half the last one, but still almost 1KW per load.
All of you on grid connect should now have a smart meter so use it to your advantage by doing things like this in off-peak times. I refuse to change my useage until I get one, gives them more incentive to get on and do everyone. Luck favours the well prepared
RevUpWind Regular Member Joined: 03/05/2008 Location: AustraliaPosts: 60
Posted: 02:07am 26 Dec 2009
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Quite right, tis 1.750KW.
There are extra inputs on the Fronius TG30 but would think the result would be same as you say. When panels where installed the sparky said that there is a way can be done mmmmm.
Have 1 dual @ 80 and 2nd dual @ 102 with twisted windings. Latter is being repaired at moment but when both going in 15knot + winds have reached up to 70-80amps to 12volt x4HD battery setup. Getting close to a KW. Would be nice to send some to the grid.
Heat on the outside of fridge is of course from the auto defrost setup. Good idea for deep freeze though.
Where did you see the 600watt plug in grid feed on eBay? Have seen 250watts and have wondered just how seriously built these things are?
Energy Matters has some good info and signed the petition for a national grid feed rate. Talk about behind the times, Germany(What Sun?) with over 2500MW grid connect and Australia with 7MW as of 2005. And their grid feed tariff is $1.15AUD. Of course we don't have much sun in Australia. Must check next moonlit nite what panels our doing.
PeterEdited by RevUpWind 2009-12-27....River Heads - Australia
The wind blows wherever it wishes; you hear the sound it makes, but you do not know where it comes from or where it is going.
KarlJ Guru Joined: 19/05/2008 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1178
dont buy this one though, can get em for under $200 and if you miss out he'll send you a 2nd chance offer on the sale price anyway.
operating range of 20-52V.
perhaps a 100S as 2x7C or 80S in 7X2C star or 60S 7x2C delta thus kinda limited to under 600W but good for low winds
Trick will be they do not recommend battery useage at all but without it you'll need to devise some means of not smoking it up with too higher voltage, hence careful selection of your stator config, you can be sure that the 600W rating would be at the top end of the voltage rating too.
certainly worth a shot I reckon
Luck favours the well prepared
HeadsUp Regular Member Joined: 06/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 43
Posted: 12:34am 01 Jan 2010
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for comparison on how things have changed , i knew a guy 25 years ago who built a windmill using 4 full length helicopter blades , he had it driving a variable displacement hydraulic pump which then was used to power a generator and water pumps on his property
It worked very well , but council forced him to take it down because of noise complaints.
The blade tip speed got so fast it was breaking the sound barrier with a loud crack...
ooops
knowledge and understanding has improved alot since then i guess.
Edited by HeadsUp 2010-01-02
Don B Senior Member Joined: 27/09/2008 Location: AustraliaPosts: 190
Posted: 08:03am 01 Jan 2010
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Just to set the record straight on why fridges get warm somewhere on the outside, this is how they dissipate the heat that the refrigeration unit removes from the inside.
Most fridges have an obvious serpentine pipe heat exchanger (which is actually a condensor for the refrigerant) at the back, while many deep freezes seem to have a hidden condensor just under one side of the cabinet. I am not sure why the makers do this, as it must make it easier for some of this heat to get back inside, and it can't do much for their energy efficiency.
The simplest way to improve the efficiency of any fridge of freezer is to ensure that the condensor area is as well ventilated as possible by leaving adequate space for air to flow past it.
Most freezers will also have a small heater associated with their door seal to stop them from freezing shut.
RegardsDon B
Jarbar Senior Member Joined: 03/02/2008 Location: AustraliaPosts: 225
Posted: 11:34am 01 Jan 2010
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A month or so ago on a hot day I contemplated what might improve the efficiency of the condenser at removing heat.I already have an opening from under the house to draw cooler air.
At the moment of contemplation I was imbibing a large can of bourbon and coke.Once the can was empty I cut off top and bottom and then cut one side to give a flat sheet of aluminium.
Taking a wooden spoon handle about 15mm dia I rolled the long side into a cigar shaped coil.This was then inserted between the serpentine pipe condenser.Where it springs open to touch the hot bits.
I believe the extra surface area causes fridge to cool down faster as the fan draws air through coiled tubes.Many cans/tubes later I am starting to run out of places to fit them.
I will just need to keep an eye on dust accumulation.And generate another excuse for drinking them.
Anthony."Creativity is detirmined by the way you hold your tounge".My Father
"Your generation will have to correct the problems made by mine".My Grandfather.
Jarbar Senior Member Joined: 03/02/2008 Location: AustraliaPosts: 225
Posted: 11:39am 01 Jan 2010
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RevUpWind,
I rang the importer of Fronius about connecting a windmill to their inverters and they said it would void the warranty.
Anthony."Creativity is detirmined by the way you hold your tounge".My Father
"Your generation will have to correct the problems made by mine".My Grandfather.
JimBo911 Senior Member Joined: 26/03/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 262
Posted: 02:10pm 01 Jan 2010
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I understand that your fridge (annually) will consume more watts then any other appliance in your home.
I purchased a Sun Frost several years ago. Made in the U.S.
It has two very efficient compressors that along with the condenser are mounted on top of the unit to dissipate heat.
One compressor for the freezer and one for the cooler area.
My original fridge consumed 200 watts the Sun Frost uses 80 watts. They come in different voltages.
One of my goals was to get my fridge off grid at the present time my fridge is off grid about 98% of the year. Not cheap but it works for me.
I am sure the shipping cost for you mates down under would be VERY HIGH.
www.sunfrost.com/
Notice. New forum software under development. It's going to miss a few functions and look a bit ugly for a while, but I'm working on it full time now as the old forum was too unstable. Couple days, all good. If you notice any issues, please contact me.
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