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Forum Index : Windmills : Radial flux ? for Oztules
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| angus Newbie  Joined: 08/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 7 |
G/day Oz (and all) Firstly . TY for your posts over at Fieldlines. I had hoped to post earlier, but have spent a lot of time reading the entire board (66 pages)so my head hurts,my eyes hurt,my back hurts, and my a#$ hurts from sitting on it for so long  .
To paraphrase Tom - that drum is "downright sneaky" and "thanks for the share' 
Is that a F&P inside that drum ? DO you have any more pics of it (and or the project) ? You did say "the easy part is..stator the hard part is ..drum". I have the sheetmetal and toolroom facilities to make both- just lack the know how 
 How would one go about producing the lams for the AWP stator and in particular the pressing of the slots.Then there is the ? of how to wind it.
regard Ps. Looks like you've got 3 mags side by side per pole in that "sneaky drum" pic. Angus.. (The older I get, the better I was). |
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KarlJ Guru  Joined: 19/05/2008 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1178 |
dont think OZ is in any way shape or form keen of the F&P, so I would doubt if there is any lams in that stator! Luck favours the well prepared |
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GWatPE Senior Member  Joined: 01/09/2006 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2127 |
I think you will find that this particular article was about rebuilding an AWP, not a F&P. Gordon. become more energy aware |
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| windlight Guru Joined: 03/03/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 331 |
I too was very interested in the fact that both Flux and Tools were into radial flux machines, still waters run deep. allan "I like this place and willingly could waste my time in it" - (Act II, Scene IV). |
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oztules Guru Joined: 26/07/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1686 |
Angus, sorry for the delay, been very busy lately.. Here you will find a lot of pics of the drum. It was a simple idea born out of desperation, and turned out to be the simplest and best way to do it I can think of. Those pictures should say it all. Keep in mind to make an accurate jig to measure the bend each time. Cut the bend lines through 1/2 to 2/3 the thickness.... and they must be square...If you line up three wide (I needed three) and cut them at the same time, suqarely, they will alll turn out fine.. If you do this you can make any size drum easily and very accurately. The cuts make the bend both easy and predictable. This means it forms itself, and you just tack it together. Don't weld heavily until it is completely assembled, or it may warp and distort. It is very very strong with just tacks. So, start with your strip steel (mine were disused power pole braces) and cut the marks into it 1/2 way through with a hacksaw (or those 1.6mm cuttinng disks)... squarely. Like this: 
I mounted the axle and stator on the drum plate, so it was in the proper position...like so: 
I then used as many turns of masking tape as I wanted air gap, and held the strips to it to form the drum.. spot weld and your good as done. 
Second layer mock up. 
what it looks like: 
More odd stuff here stuff It is not simple to cut out AWP type stator stacks. It is very simple to get better results than the AWP by using the ststor from a big motor as Flux has shown. The stator is the easy part, the drum is impossible to find so that it gives you the airgap you need. Usually you have to compromise for what you can find. The flat steel drum, allows you to design for what you want, and what stators you have available, and build the drum to suit after the fact... I used 3 mags glued together to make each pole. It is not too simple trying to keep them together until the glue set. KarlJ... I probably give that impression. But, the F&P in it's simple form is a good starter unit. Quick uncog, rewire and a few blades and you are flying. An excellent learning tool. I have summarised the drawbacks on numerous occasions...but it is still a good hobby mill. It ceases to be good the moment you spend money on a decent tower, battery bank and inverter. At this point it is a boat anchor. Why spend all that money on good tower, batts and inverters, if you cripple your power generating abilities because the alt is cheap? magnet cost is once only, crap performance is forever... Thats what is wrong with the F&P. It is too good to be forgotten about, and not good enough to take seriously. I would not use one because I would want to utilise the tower and support equipment better, and I like the control an axial flux gives you. ...............oztules Village idiot...or... just another hack out of his depth |
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| KarlJ Guru Joined: 19/05/2008 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1178 |
looks like lots of work for the "quick stator" 
and 500W x3 =1500W... Looks good for a mill motor as the output climbs steeper later which is what we want. Short of the less output from the F&P solution, the matching is achieved by the dual stator. I'm inspired by gordon's 890W from a single 100S with CAPS, no neo's, (must have been honking!) FYI All up for my grid connected setup with the dual F&P i'm looking at pole &Concrete $1400, cable and electronics (caps recs, PL20 etc) $6-700, Dual F&P & inverter about $3K, $400 2nd hand 6V golf buggy batts 225AH x 8. so $5-6K for grid connected wind is looking pretty reasonable next to a bare bones 1KW SOMA for $6K + everything else. I "wasted" about $600 in the first mill BUT will flog it on ebay in time Luck favours the well prepared |
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Bryan1 Guru Joined: 22/02/2006 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1507 |
Now I'm totally confused  that stator Oz looks to me like a seeley not a AWP. I did do a search on FL for your files and the only drum story was on the seeley. The big concern I have found here in south oz is the plastic used in the f&p and the seeley have gone brittle in like 3 months out in the sun and weather. I suppose thats the main reason I've gone the motor conversion route and oneday I'll do an axial flux using 50x25 round N50's.
Cheers Bryan |
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| oztules Guru Joined: 26/07/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1686 |
Bryan, that is the seeley..... be confused no more  it's a 20 pole radial seeley with extra magnet. I trusted the plastic housing as much as you.
It was aired to show Angus the drum formation, the seeley stator needs a rewind and neo's to be a useful performer I think.... and then the iron drag will be excessive from my perspective..just something I played with. .............oztules Village idiot...or... just another hack out of his depth |
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| oztules Guru Joined: 26/07/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1686 |
Karl, Thats quite a bit of money spent on supporting equipment. I would want to get the best bang for buck at that level. My tower is free (4m pine pole), cabling was free, electrical was $10.00, blades $30.00 (inc sand paper and fuel). Alternator was about $300.00. It's a 4m axial flux 24 50x12mm n45 mags. 9 coils. free resin and glass. Max output seen >5000w into 4R for batteries > 3000w .....midwind output 1-2kw,...... mild breeze 100-800w .very rare to see it under 100w... even when the breeze seems non-existent. batts $800 225ah 36v and 96v@100ah (free). A free alternator made of F&P's does not cut it for me, and my investment is small compared to yours. ............oztules Village idiot...or... just another hack out of his depth |
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| KarlJ Guru Joined: 19/05/2008 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1178 |
As you say a great learning tool -I dont disagree. GTI, cabling tower etc a necessary evil for me and will also be good for the next (read Bigger!) mill. Also, all that will be needed for a machine such as yours to upgrade will be a 2nd GTI and losses in the 16mm cable at 60A+ would be huge so some more wire. I'm also fortunate in that Phill's design is a bolt on AXFX to whats there now and if/when it prooves itself worthy by making good grunt for a couple of years, i will be in a position to go bigger. for the time being I'm hoping it will be a good compromise between cost and output. I'll go back and watch the chainsaw blades post again! Luck favours the well prepared |
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| Joblow Regular Member  Joined: 05/01/2010 Location: AustraliaPosts: 54 |
Just been trying to get my head around axial flux and radial flux, found an interesting article here http://www.mipsis.com/mds/pdf/iemdc03_ronghai.pdf although it seems to relate more to motors than gens it has a description of a toroidal machine (magnets inside and outside of the armature) has anyone tried this? ? - what would be the likely result of using three or more F&P stators close coupled on a single shaft using either the F&P magnets or building a stronger magnet rotor The man who never made a mistake never made anything |
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| KarlJ Guru Joined: 19/05/2008 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1178 |
RE The F&P question, yes it has been done and there are a few posts on Neo conversions. ALthough I'm a big fan of the F&P as 'Tules has pointed out on numerous occasions the iron core has inherant drawbacks, mainly due to the iron cores of the coils. at higher power outputs the amp turns causes reactance limiting (the way I understand it) in that at a certain point magnetism is induced in the cores that cancels out the magnetic field of the rotor, thus at higher power levels, when we want to extract more power from the wind, the generator cant do and thus you get a runaway situation and shorting the coils makes no difference, you cannot stop the mill. mounting stators side by side and gluing the hubs together has poling problems as the ridgidity is insufficient and thus problems, as too with the neo conversions, the rotor should be stiffened to support them as magnetism can be 4x greater thus causing polling. This untimately limits the F&P design for a perfect setup (like Gordons single no neo's) to 890W with caps and careful matching of bits.... Mere mortals like us would be doing well to get 600W per stator and more normal is 4-500W before we are running into a brick wall. Dual stators are easy relatively speaking and Trev at Basically Natural does an additional spline to accommodate two stators $100 and Phillm does a loctite solution and cuts the shaft down smaller in order to utilise the F&P bearings in the machines original bearing holder. Both solutions are excellent although Phills more elegant and once that stator is sandwitched between the front bearing and prop hub there is no way it can slip. With the right combo of Batt voltage and stator configuration a well matched mill good for 1KW is well within reason and a 750W mill that basically produces power in all but no wind is also possible. Seely conversion shown here is great but lots of work, as stated in the past the F&P is a great 1st up, 2nd up and 3rd up windmill (EG Cameron AKA smartdrives), but ultimately greed gets the better of us and bigger is always better. Phill played around with the seely too and didnt get very far but beat it in spades with the OZ AXFX. I would one day like to see Phill / Gordon / OZtules do a similar how to as Hugh Piggot for this site based around a 4m turbine and offer bits for sale as otherpower does for those of us without the kit but who "need" to have a hand in the build along the way. SO there's the challenge! I think this post is a good start AXFX build Luck favours the well prepared |
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