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Forum Index : Windmills : The other Brands 3 Phase Induction Motors?

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Kamak
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Joined: 13/04/2021
Location: Canada
Posts: 146
Posted: 04:17pm 13 Apr 2021
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Hi people. I'm totally new here. I live in a country/province where there is no wind, Vancouver BC Canada. But we sure do like some Green-tech here non the less. And I'm just plain curious. So I got me an old Samsung 36 pole Induction motor. Is there any threads here that discuss the use of "the other brands" of washing machine motors for use as wind turbines or generators in general? I'll erase this question/thread if someone points me to the right place or thread here. Thanks in advance for any help.

Regards,
Mike C

PS, we mostly only see all the Asian brands here in Canada, and they break down quite readily, lol. So there lots of them to be had real cheap like. They must be close to the same amount of copper as the F&P's, yes?
Edited 2021-04-14 02:22 by Kamak
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Kamak
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Posted: 04:39pm 13 Apr 2021
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Dang! I think I answered my own question. There most likely isn't any discussions here about the other brands, because they're most likely made with aluminum wire. I read some threads stating other brands use aluminum wire, but I didn't quite register whether "ALL" other Asian brands use aluminum. I just did an enamel scratch test of this Samsung stator, and yes, it looks to be "NOT" copper. The enamel color and the weight had me fooled. That's all very disappointing. Won't be finding any F&P motors around here.
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Kamak
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Posted: 04:58pm 13 Apr 2021
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New question. Does anyone know of any other brands that use copper windings, other than the F&P? Unfortunately we don't see many other Euro brands here in Canada. They are rare.
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Kamak
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Posted: 09:27pm 13 Apr 2021
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I don't think these DD washing machine motors are called induction motors, are they? Brushless DC motors and/or Inverter-controlled motors, is what they are, correct?
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Kamak
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Posted: 10:29pm 13 Apr 2021
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Well, now that I'm in it knee-deep I might as well go all in. I think I'll rewire this Samsung with new copper. What gauge, what number of windings? Anyone?
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Kamak
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Posted: 12:17am 15 Apr 2021
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Does anyone know if the newer F&P DD BLDC motors are wired with aluminum? Or are all F&P's wired with copper?
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Warpspeed
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Posted: 02:54pm 15 Apr 2021
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F&P are not induction motors.
They use permanent magnets and are a three phase synchronous motor.

Induction motors, do not have magnets.
Cheers,  Tony.
 
Kamak
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Posted: 03:16pm 15 Apr 2021
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  Warpspeed said  F&P are not induction motors.
They use permanent magnets and are a three phase synchronous motor.

Induction motors, do not have magnets.


You're right, I figured that out a little later (it's in the thread). But I couldn't change the title of the thread. they are 3-Phase VFD-controlled motors. Some people call them BLDC motors, but they are not DC motors, they are AC but the AC is a frequency-controlled, chopped, and a digitally controlled waveform.
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Kamak
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Posted: 03:19pm 15 Apr 2021
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So does anyone know if the newer F&P are made with aluminum wire?
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Kamak
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Posted: 10:53pm 15 Apr 2021
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Wow OK, Maybe I'll get this straight. I think they really do use pulsed DC from an ESC (like a hobby 3 phase motor controller), not an expensive AC VFD. So yeah it is a Brushless DC motor BLDC.

What we're using is the motor's inherent "Back EMF" AC that is induced into the coils from the permanent magnets.

https://howtomechatronics.com/how-it-works/how-brushless-motor-and-esc-work/

So now it is a BLDC Inductive 3-Phase AC generator. lol So we're all right.
Edited 2021-04-16 09:13 by Kamak
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Warpspeed
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Posted: 12:31am 16 Apr 2021
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F&P are not brushless dc motors either.
There is no sensing of rotor position fed back to the controller.

A three phase synchronous motor has more in common with a stepper motor than anything else.
Cheers,  Tony.
 
Kamak
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Posted: 02:12am 16 Apr 2021
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  Warpspeed said  F&P are not brushless dc motors either.
There is no sensing of rotor position fed back to the controller.

A three phase synchronous motor has more in common with a stepper motor than anything else.


Wait F&P DD washing machine motors are not brushless DC pulse fed/driven motors? They don't have a hall sensor like the Samsungs or LG's? What do they use to sense position and speed? Do they use VFDs? Those are much more expensive than an ESC. Does anyone have a schem of the F&P DD washing machines?
Edited 2021-04-16 12:17 by Kamak
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Kamak
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Posted: 02:25am 16 Apr 2021
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Now I'm all very curious as to what models, that are/were being used for wind turbines, and the service manuals for these washers. I thought these were exactly like the Asian DD washers. Same rotor/stator design and these have hall sensors that use the back emf to sense position and speed. This is really weird.

"the Smart Drive DC motor."

https://www.manualslib.com/manual/1160699/Fisher-And-Paykel-Smartdrive.html?page=11#manual
Edited 2021-04-16 12:32 by Kamak
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Kamak
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Posted: 02:39am 16 Apr 2021
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OK, cool with this manual I also just discovered that yes the new 36 pole units are wound with aluminum wire.
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Kamak
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Posted: 03:47am 16 Apr 2021
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https://www.manualslib.com/manual/556089/Fisher-And-Paykel-Iw509.html?page=72#manual

So yeah, they are pulsed DC motors with hall sensor feedback servo control and use ESC drives, and they're brushless. They also produce an inherently "induced AC 3 phase sine wave voltage/current that can be utilized for power generation. This is classified as "Back EMF" produced by the permanent magnets induced into the stator.
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Technophiliac
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Joined: 18/12/2020
Location: New Zealand
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Posted: 04:19am 16 Apr 2021
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Have you seen https://www.thebackshed.com/windmill/Contents.asp ?
Davo, Wellington. You can have it perfect, on time, and at the best price. Choose any two.
 
Kamak
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Posted: 02:24pm 16 Apr 2021
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This is how these motors work.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uOQk8SJso6Q&t=1s



Edited 2021-04-17 00:28 by Kamak
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