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Forum Index : Off topic archive. : Synthetic methane 4 storage
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| domwild Guru  Joined: 16/12/2005 Location: AustraliaPosts: 873 |
Friends, I just read some good news re storage of surplus solar/wind energy. Apparently the electricity people in Europe are not happy about the uncertainty of solar/wind energy and this has even led to negative (?) prices on the electricity markets. German gas storage can store 200 TWh, while the net can only store 0.4TWh. Solution: Make methane by electrolysis of water, which gives H and O, combine with CO2 to make synthetic methane CH4. A 20 kW plant is being built and a 10 MW plant is being considered. Conversion efficiency at the moment is 60%. As an aside: Recently Russia cut off the gas to Europe, because the Ukraine did not pay its bills. When I asked my Austrian friend if he has to look forward to a cold winter, he said Austria has stored a year's worth of Russian gas in its oil/gas fields. Now the Ukraine is extending its lease of a naval base on the Black Sea to the Russians for a lower gas price! Taxation as a means of achieving prosperity is like a man standing inside a bucket trying to lift himself up. Winston Churchill |
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Greenbelt Guru Joined: 11/01/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 566 |
Yes Extra energy could be used to manufacture CH-4 in times of good wind then used to make steam to power the grid generators. Another source for a carbon based fuel But it has the advantage of re stocking the atmosphere with oxygen through hydrolysis. What do scientist's Know.? When I was a Boy of 10, 1945, My science book predicted that the year 1960 would see a very severe shortage of oxygen if the current rate of burning coal and oil and natural gas continued. Strangely, I cant recall anything about excessive carbon dioxide, And though that fateful day did not arrive we may be getting very close to it. The Thousands of Jet Passenger aircraft Worldwide taking to the sky Daily and loaded with 15 - 20 tons of Hydro carbon. The millions of cars ,Trucks, Trains Boats, Home heaters, and coal and gas fired Generators to supply the Grid power.all of this requires Oxygen. IS this a good place to save a tree? Future aircraft will use LNG To power the Engines, This OIL and COAL thing Has Got To Go!. When I Think about the Broken OIL WELL HEAD A mile deep in the ocean off Louisiana And No SYSTEM in place to choke it off,=---They say the safety devise Failed to operate. We Know how the power players operate, A safety system in the well casing below sea bottom would be expensive. Take longer for profits to show. Its a Mile under water Who's Goin to know. They Plan to Kill the People with suffocating Smoke by setting fire to the oil, This they say will protect the Shrimp and and the wetlands of the Mississippi Delta Should make a good fire.This time the Germans Have a good IDEA. Time has proven that I am blind to the Obvious, some of the above may be True? |
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Downwind Guru Joined: 09/09/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2333 |
Greenbelt, I spent most of my working life in the oilfield working with this sort of things and let me tell you that saftey is a paramount in the well construction in almost every country (Russia excluded)if it was not of such a importance then this sort of disaster would be a daily event when you consider the millions of oil wells and high pressure gas wells there is. A underwater blowout is not a light issue and is very difficult to manage and for this reason alone every precaution is taken to prevent this from happening as it often cost many lives when things go wrong. Part of my previous job was well kills and it is a very well calculated proceedure and every kill is a different animal to deal with. I was part of the poor fools that remained on the location when all hell broke loose to regain control, and i will assure you it was the most scary thing dealing with mother nature when she was out of control. It dont happen very often as every forseeable precaution is taken at every step of the way and cost millions to ensure these disasters dont happen. The training for some of us is huge, and the tv images of oil spurting into the air and every one dancing around in oil soaked hard hats like cowboys if very far from realaity. I have also been stuck at sea in cyclones as it was my job to set the storm valve into the well and cut the rig free from the ocean floor if things got to bad. All personell was evauacted except for a handful of us that could fit 1 chopper, by the time the decision was made to cut free, the storm was to great to send the chopper so we were stuck onboard for the duration of the cyclone. That was one wild ride that you often put your head between your legs and kissed your ass goodbye. We didnt do these things for the joy of it but in the line of saftey and to protect the enviroment, so please done assume it is short cut for the sake of saving a few dollars that cause these disasters as i assure you that is far from the truth. Things do fail and in most cases there is 100% redundency for all saftey devices and it is very rare that they all fail as they are tested on a regular basis at great exspence. To burn the oil slick is more than likely for several reasons and no one will put a rig into a floating fire hazard and risk the lives of hundreds of personell. I would assume they may have to drill a deviated well into the main well and kill it from some distance away, this all takes time and the damage if the silck is left to spread and break up is huge, so to burn it might not be the best but will prevent a bigger disaster in the long run. Pete. Sometimes it just works |
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SSW_squall Senior Member  Joined: 20/03/2010 Location: AustraliaPosts: 111 |
That process for making syngas can be bloody dangereous because it generates carbon monoxide, a colourless and odourless POISON!! They had something on TV a while ago about a car with a gasifier plant in the boot, of course they didn't mention the danger... But i for one would NOT be caught driving that vehical anywhere AB Einstein: Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not one bit simpler |
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| Downwind Guru Joined: 09/09/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2333 |
[quote]But i for one would NOT be caught driving that vehical anywhere [/quote] Wouldnt a few rusted body holes and a leaky exhaust be about the same. I remember in the day of youth driving around in a holden HR panel van with the rear door open in summer and we all had red eyes and sore throats from the exhaust fumes being sucked in. And contary to what many thought it was not because of what we smoked back then. The good old days when the rear seat consisted of a bean bag without seat belts and as many crew that you could squash in, and hit the beach then drive miles along the waters edge to a isolated spot, take a swim in the cold ocean, shiver your nuts/tits off, get bogged in the soft sand, push/dig our way out, and drive home again. Pete. Sometimes it just works |
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vasi Guru Joined: 23/03/2007 Location: RomaniaPosts: 1697 |
The french guys think different. Hobbit name: Togo Toadfoot of Frogmorton Elvish name: Mablung Miriel Beyound Arduino Lang |
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| Downwind Guru Joined: 09/09/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2333 |
The Girl in the photo looks more interested in checking her makeup in the mirror than promoting the bike. $23.00 a year to run it is less than some spend on push bike tires in a year. I think i would feel like road kill waiting to happen, around the loacal highways here. Pete. Sometimes it just works |
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| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi Vasi Very interesting however I agree with Pete that it makes us road kill in waiting. If there was a better system of bike ways it could work but at the moment with all the idiots using sub standard roads we could end up as a bonnet mascot on a truck or a 4x4 IT WOULD NEED TO DO AT LEAST 120 KLM PER HOUR to be able to stay clear of them. All the best Bob Sorry guys got off the topic a bit to far, just a note: there is so much methane available why ever would anyone want to go to all the hassles to make synthetic methane it would be better to use the solar power to enhance the methane production eg optimum temperature control particle control and pumping base product. Foolin Around |
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| domwild Guru Joined: 16/12/2005 Location: AustraliaPosts: 873 |
Yes, there is a lot of methane around and a few sewage plants are using it to drive themselves and put juice back into the grid. The Chinese use a lot of methane for cooking by fermenting this biogas in large underground tanks from all sorts of manures and biowaste. By using a gasometer type setup in water, the gas is then under pressure. Taxation as a means of achieving prosperity is like a man standing inside a bucket trying to lift himself up. Winston Churchill |
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| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi All I worked on setting up a piggery with 500 pigs and the methane it produced ran the whole place, it ran a 100 kw alternator and several smaller ones and the heat from the cooling of the motors warmed the floors to provide a better environment in winter. The waste from the digester was spread on the paddocks to grow the food for the pigs and it was amazing the growth rate. He was working on a system to power the tractors as well but I didnt see the result of that. He also ran the heating for three houses and gas cookers and still had excess gas. All the best Bob Foolin Around |
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| domwild Guru Joined: 16/12/2005 Location: AustraliaPosts: 873 |
squall, I am not so sure if SYNGAS is the same as this synthetic methane I am talking about here. Syngas might be steam over a bed of glowing coals, I think it is also called water gas. This is incorrect but it goes something like: C + H2O = CO + H2 If it were only so simple to make H2, so I am wrong here somewhere. Taxation as a means of achieving prosperity is like a man standing inside a bucket trying to lift himself up. Winston Churchill |
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| domwild Guru Joined: 16/12/2005 Location: AustraliaPosts: 873 |
squall, The gasifiers were long cylinders outside of the trucks and as a child after the war I remember the clicking of a valve at the bottom of the gasifiers. Because the gasifier is on the outside, there is no problem with CO. We will see this scheme again after peak oil. I managed not to get killed sleeping in a VW bus in winter with the engine running and the heater on full bore. A VW heats the air via the hot exhaust gases and fortunely there was no leak in the heat exchanger. Happiness (warmth in this case) requires stupidity and selfishness but if stupidity is missing all is lost! Taxation as a means of achieving prosperity is like a man standing inside a bucket trying to lift himself up. Winston Churchill |
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| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi All I remember a town gas plant near Sydney years ago that made the old town gas from coal in big ovens and it turned into coke and produced lots of toxic smells, we used to go there and buy coke for our heater and the furnace in the workshop, nobody had heard of global warming in those days. I read an old book on hydrogen balloons in the civil war in the USA and they used a simular thing to supply gas to the balloons, it is mainly hydrogen, and I think the town gas was to, as we filled the big balloons with it put a wick in the nose and they would float up and explode. Also my father had a burner on the car and truck and I remember him getting it going when he couldn't afford petrol to take the vegetables to market. I wonder when we see these contraptions again or will we get the battery storage sorted out for EV's. All the best Bob Foolin Around |
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| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi All Have a look at yhis little unit running on pellet wood All the best Bob http://www.allenergies.net/biomass/background.html Foolin Around |
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| domwild Guru Joined: 16/12/2005 Location: AustraliaPosts: 873 |
Interesting! There is coal gas from the coking plants, syngas from biowaste, synthetic methane thru electrolysis of water and binding it with CO2 and watergas by blowing steam over a bed of glowing coals and methane from digesters of biowaste and manures. Taxation as a means of achieving prosperity is like a man standing inside a bucket trying to lift himself up. Winston Churchill |
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| domwild Guru Joined: 16/12/2005 Location: AustraliaPosts: 873 |
Bob, The workers at the coking plant of BHP (Wollongong) fortunately never worked there for too long as they could not stand the H2S (rotten egg gas) which kills people and, interestingly, may have killed a couple making love next to a swamp in Sydney (Bogle?) Keep that in mind, should passion cloud your judgement! An aside: It is to the world's benefit, that the teaching of chemistry has gone West in most countries. Think of all the unsuccessful bombing campaigns, like shoe bombers, Glasgow bomber and many others and right up to the last attempt in New York! There is a benefit in ignorance! Happiness requires stupidity and selfishness, but if stupidity is missing all is lost. Taxation as a means of achieving prosperity is like a man standing inside a bucket trying to lift himself up. Winston Churchill |
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| Greenbelt Guru Joined: 11/01/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 566 |
VK4AYQ Sorry guys got off the topic a bit to far, just a note: there is so much methane available why ever would anyone want to go to all the hassles to make synthetic methane it would be better to use the solar power to enhance the methane production eg optimum temperature control particle control and pumping base product. The advantage to producing Methane, C-H4, If using the carbon dioxide already present in the atmosphere it will ba a carbon neutral fuel. Taking the Carbon out of the atmosphere to synthesize fuel then replacing the carbon to the atmosphere when the fuel is burned, Thus the quantity of carbon dioxide (Greenhouse Gas)remains unchanged. If Natural Gas Methane from Gas Wells is burned then this is a dirty Fuel like Coal and Oil, just adding to the problem we have. The synthesis of methane Gets its Hydrogen from water and the oxygen content of the water and the Carbom dioxide are released to the atmosphere where it will replace the O2 used when this fuel is burned. Methane as a common fuel is the very best choice for our fire breathing Engines being the next thing to hydrogen its self, each molecule contains 1 carbon atom and joined by 4 hydrogen atoms, when burned the exhaust products are 1 molecule of carbon dioxide and 2 molecules of water. It is easy to work with, plentiful in the wells, Has already been adapted to auto engines has been used in furnaces for a century, so could be used in turbofan Jet engines, I have read somewhere that the Turbine Runs cooler in this type engine, something to do with the bypass air routed through the turbine center or hub, this keeps the bearings cool and drains heat from the turbine. If any Jet Mech's out there have something to add or corrections to this statement, I would welcome any comments. Water Gas is what you say, The carbon Monoxide C-O is poisonous, It is a fuel but has little heat value. It combines with 1 Oxygen atom to create carbon Dioxide C-O2, The burning wood or Coal supplies the carbon and water releases oxygen and hydrogen The Engine operates on the C-O an H2, C-H4 Methane has a different molecule.? Am I done Yet.?? EDIT; adding comma's and filling gaps in the text. Time has proven that I am blind to the Obvious, some of the above may be True? |
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| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi Dom Fortunately I'm a bit old for such adventures I prefer comfort rather than speed so don't think the swamp gas will get me. The most likely thing would be a windmill on the head or fried by some alternate energy project of singed by a HHO cell. It is an unfortunate fact that most good things made or invented can and are put to some nefarious use by the radical elements of society and that includes the government the only thing different with them is they justify it by some form of legal or perverted moral argument. The ignorance epidemic we are seeing caused by brainwashing by the creatonizer {TV and violent Video Games)I am sure is used by the powers that be to educate the masses into a state of induced separation from reality so they can be used without protest to do the dirty work of government and industry. The smarter ones are shepherded into the halls of higher learning to invent the processes and controls of the masses. Fortunately there are some people who opt out of the mouse race and become part of the conservation and innovation movement as we are privileged to be associated with within this forum. Soap box broke. All the best Bob Foolin Around |
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| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi Greenbelt Thanks for the chemistry lesson and the implications of the use of the various processes. I gather the underground burning of coal process to produce is based on the principles you mention and as such has all the same problems not the clean energy it is purported to be I personally like the HHO cell concept and have worked with it for a number of years as it is clean and can be driven by solar energy, To get methane to work successfully we would have to fit a dome to Canberra to collect enough to be useful. My experience with a 500 pig motel was enough to open my eyes as to the usefulness of methane as a fixed plant but not sure if he ever got the mobile part working. As with all of the energy sources we have the main problem is the efficient and safe storage of energy. All the best Bob Foolin Around |
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| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi Greenbelt Just a side point to your methane equation If the methane is released to the atmosphere as is it is a worse greenhouse gas than CO2 so it would seem to me to burn it and change its gaseous state to something less polluting would be an advantage, the lessor of two evils so as to speak. I believe however the earth is able to cope with the natural processes of decay and the natural products produced within the cycle, it is the acceleration of the process that overloads the ecosystem. My grandfather now dead 60 years told me that when he was a boy the hills in NE Victoria where sparsely forested and as the years went by the trees increased in response to the pollution in the atmosphere, a natural cycle, but now we have overrun the natural resilience of the ecosystem. He observed that 80 years ago and now the scientists are saying the same, they are a bit slow on the uptake. All the best Bob Foolin Around |
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