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Forum Index : Off topic archive. : self sustainability by force
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grolly Regular Member  Joined: 19/05/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 62 |
Hello all, I have been lurking arount the various web sites concerning wind and solar power ever since I bought a piece of ground near Sedan, and found out that it will cost me $36,000 to have the power put on. What a rip off,as there is a power pole in the next paddock, about 400 mt away. So.. with some trepidation and hopefully a bit of help from some people like you, I have decided to go compleatly off grid. A 3 kva diesel gen set was my first thought, grow some jatropha plants to feed the generator, as the jatropha grows realy fast, will grow in poor soil, and it is low in free fatty acids which means it needs little processing , crush, filter and you have free fuel ( not quite that easy, but you follow my drift). ran into a couple of snags with this, 1) the plant is a noxious woody plant in the tropics.. 2)it is hard if not illegal to import the seeds.. 3) could take upto 3 years to have enough oil to fuel the gen set full time from 10 to 20 trees.. so I have shelved this idea for the moment. I had seen some wind generators in the city, thought it was advertising for a shop that sold them, found a private home inhabited by a very friendly and knowledgable man by the name of Arron,( if you are on this site hope you don`t mind me nameing you )who told me he was makeing his wind gens out of f&p washing machine motors, that got the brain box thinking, and after a bit of searching of the web, found this most wonderfull site. I have been able to get my hands on a couple of 24 volt 760 ah fork batteries, 12 x 2 volt cells in each, been left out in the weather for a while, but I will see if I can ressurrect at least 6 x 2 volt cells if I can get 12 x 2 v working all the better , the price was right ( free) so nothing ventured etc.. Now I come to the " I need a bit of help section" assuming that I can ressurrect the batteries to give me 24 volt at 720 a/h, 1) what size inverter do I need to run the house?( normal stuff in the place, lights (fluros), computers 2, tv 3 vcr 2 dvd , phone chargers, toaster, clocks , exaust fans 3 , aeriation pump for sewerage system,runs full time, sump pump for same, cooking and hot water is gas with elec ignition.) this is maximum, some of this can go to conserve power. 2)what size or how many wind gen and what wattage solar panels would I need to keep them charged?( allowing for the backup gen set 1000 w diesel) I have till november this year to get all this set up, that is when the house is being compleated, so I will have to get a wriggle on. well this is enough for my first post, hope I havent boared you all too much, but any help would be appreciated.. btw I am on a very limited budget, as this is my retirement place, so buying all new stuff, apart from things I can`t build, is out of the question... Grolly I have bought the farm...now I AM powering it... |
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| dwyer Guru  Joined: 19/09/2005 Location: AustraliaPosts: 573 |
Hi Grolly Have you try coconut oil as was on TV show few weeks ago and what about corn they grow pretty quick as l belive is very good Dwyer The Bushman  |
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| grolly Regular Member Joined: 19/05/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 62 |
Hi dwyer, I did see that, but I am too old to wait for the trees to grow, and much too old to climb the trees to harvest them. corn is good... boiled with some peas and carrots, never thought of it as a fuel... more interested in the wind and solar side now, the block is in a fairly windy area, and fairly flat to the east, lots of sunlight hours. what I need is to work out what I have to buy/build to power the place. Grolly I have bought the farm...now I AM powering it... |
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| dwyer Guru Joined: 19/09/2005 Location: AustraliaPosts: 573 |
Hi Grolly Thatis Fair enought and anyway Welcome to Diy Windmill and l do hope that you will enjoy your time with everyone that share ideas with you and This wonderfull webs webs site setup by Gimzo 
Dwyer the bushman |
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Highlander Senior Member  Joined: 03/10/2006 Location: AustraliaPosts: 266 |
Hi Grolly, welcome aboard. Setting up a house to be off grid is a pretty big job and will still cost thousands. 
Can you get some more of those forklift batteries? It depends entirely on your use as to how many amp hours you'll need but I recon 3000 ah+ is a starting point. You don't want to drain the batteries too low, so the more you have the drain will be spread out, which drops the voltage less, making them last longer. How many people are going to live in the house? 1) the inverter size depends on how many appliances you will use at the same time. Have a look at the plate on all of them and look at how many watts they draw. But it's not quite that simple, many things like TV's, AC, induction motors etc draw up to seven times that to get them started, once running they will draw the lesser amount. There are two types of inverters you'll be looking at, pure sine wave and modified sine wave. Pure sine costs more but they emulate mains power excellently and are safe to run sensitive things like pc, tv, dvd. As a rule of thumb if it has circuit boards inside the appliance use pure sine. Modified sine is cheaper but emulates the mains poorly, but they are ok to run lights, toaster etc. Be wary of using things that generate heat (toasters,blow heaters)as they will draw a high wattage. 2) How many wind gen? well that depends on the total ah use you will use in a day, a mix of solar and wind is better, when the clouds come it's usually windy and vice vera. To give you some idea many houses with 2 people will use 300-400kwh a month. An airx turbine will make (depending on wind conditions) around 40kwh a month. The new solar grant is coming in soon so have a look at that. If you want a cheap backup gen have a look at the one I made it will produce 80amps plus. I'm refining it so I can update the pics soon if your interested. http://www.thebackshed.com/Windmill/FORUM1/forum_posts.asp?T ID=427&PN=1 A lot of your questions will already be answered in past forums, have a look through them all and you will learn a lot. It's a big job so have a good think about it, but $36,000 for power poles isn't appealing either. PS I would suggest 48 or 24v system. Have you thought about how much you want/can spend? Central Victorian highlands |
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| grolly Regular Member Joined: 19/05/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 62 |
Thankyou Dwyer for the welcome. Hi Highlander, yes, I am begining to find out just how expensive setting up the off grid power is, but for $36000 I can have the privlage of having a power bill each month, and as there will be only two of us on the line, the price per kw will be higher than normal. At the moment I can not get more batteries, but I am still looking, you never know, I stumbled accross these by just asking after seeing them there for a long time, they could be stuffed, but I will find out about that when I test them. I have a phone no for a guy that sell s/h fork batteries in Adelaide, don`t know how many he has, yet to ring him, will keep you informed. Thankyou for the inverter info, it was about where I was going to start, 3000ah, getting rid of a bit of the electrical stuff will help, the computors (2) will be replaced with laptops, the two fridges are going, being replaced by a chest freezer with a external temp control as seen on the web, will dig up the web site if you want, heating will be gas, the house has an energy rating of 5 and the way I have positioned it should help with the heating and cooling. The things that are worrying me are the motors,( starting draw etc) as in the aereation pump ( 71w constant running) and sump pump ( 150w abt 2 hr a day on float switch) for the sewrage, and the presure pump for the rain water tanks to the house (presure controlled on demand), should I run a compleatly seperate system for them, (own pv/batt/inv) for each motor, or intergrate them into the house system? btw, there only two of us in the house, and the two furkids (dogs) plus the odd guest. I have put aside about $4000 for the power, plus I see it being an ongoing project, so as more money comes available things will be upgraded/replaced/fixed etc. In the first instant, I will just have the gen, the batteries, and the inverter, the other stuff will come when I move in to the house, (wind and pv) but if I can get some of it built while I am still on the grid, all the better. as far as gen`s go there is a lot to choose from, prices from $1000 to $4000, interesting one from http://www.ecoinnovation.co.nz/product.php?group=27 from NZ, based on f/p gen, tuned for veg oil. Honda diesel are the dearest, but you must pay for quality, even if they couldn`t tell me weather it would run on veg oil/biodiesel or not. I think I will steer clear of the cheap chinese imports, as I have seen a lot in the `return to supplier` pile at one of the places I deliver to at work ( won`t start/won`t charge/ rattles/ smoke escaped etc) I have been reading as much as time allows and i don`t know yet if I am getting any wiser or just more confused, that is one reason I have chosen this site to write in, I figure if I stick to one site in australia, I will lessen the confusion. ( thanks Gimzo) well enough of this rant, will keep working on this as i go, a good site for info on how things work is a danish site http://www.windpower.org/en/core.htm. see you all soon Grolly I have bought the farm...now I AM powering it... |
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| Highlander Senior Member Joined: 03/10/2006 Location: AustraliaPosts: 266 |
Hi Grolly, one thing I forgot to say about the inverters, they have a surge and a running rating. The running is the amount they will run on constantly, the surge depends on brands but will last for a few seconds. This is designed to start motors, air con etc. The surge rating varies a lot with brands so keep this in mind when selecting. Also look at the no load current draw, some draw more than others even if nothing is being powered. That eco inn gen looks good but I don't think he exports them. I made mine with a petrol motor. If you can get your hands on a water cooled diesel that would be better as you can use the hot water for heating. Central Victorian highlands |
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| RossW Guru Joined: 25/02/2006 Location: AustraliaPosts: 495 |
Big undertaking mate! Advice by other posters is pretty much on the money though. I recently built my new home. Like you, power is in the paddock next door - 240 metres away - but landowner won't let us come over/through/under his property. Only alternate route is about 300m but through "environment protection" area. Estimates were about $100,000 to get it to our fence, then another 200m up here, plus connection fees etc, and like you say - then get to pay for power like every other mug. I built a 14KVA genset from a 1800cc car engine (converted to propane), run a bank of 24 2V/500AH AGM VRLA cells (48V system) with a 5KW continuous (10KW peak) pure-sine inverter/charger. My power setup We "got rid of" most of the power-hungry electrical stuff. We use the gas stove instead of electric frypan and electric kettle. Hydronic heating (pump hot water through the floor slab) and domestic hot water are both provided from the car engine (the block, and a heat exchanger on the exhaust). We do have a few things that take hefty amounts of power though - and we're just not prepared to compromise too much on them. The washing machine, and the dishwasher, both take over 2KW when they are heating water, but fortunately its not for very long. We usually run them only when the generator is running in the mornings. The toaster only takes 2-3 minutes, so we use it as required (not very often), the microwave takes 1500W but again, usually only for short periods. The effluent treatment takes 100W or so but only runs for 20 minutes in the hour. Pressure pump uses a variable frequency drive and is reasonably efficient. It has "soft-start" built in which makes it kind on the inverter. I have 330W of PV on a tracker that makes useful power in summer, helps in winter but not as much as I'd like. I have another 660W on order, hope that will turn up soon. I also have a commercial 1KW (chinese) turbine. When we get wind, it's excellent. In a windy day it makes all our household power! Sadly, good wind isn't a common thing here. Its worth the effort, but I wouldn't want it to be my only power source! As I'm not long over the whole exercise myself, if you want to bounce any ideas off me, feel free! |
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| dwyer Guru Joined: 19/09/2005 Location: AustraliaPosts: 573 |
Hi Grolly have alook at Rainbow http://www.rpc.com.au and the best pure sine waves Inverter Australian made is Lantronics, Qld. made has 90 to 96% Peak Efficiency same with Selectronic both model of pure waves are very good and both have good backup services l belive Selectronic is made in Tassie however take a care when you shop around some of the greedy company can rip you off just like my friend who live on the farm near Gatton shire and l got premissiom to show the photo,of batteries box, solar panel price list plus donkey jobs ripoff $30,000 Photo now l have will be shown soon as forgot to price down few more things for sample l think $3500 for Lantronics 2000watt lantronics at normal use but can use up 3000 watt for few seconds but it was mislead by selling the owner that inverters was 3000 watt instead true 2000 watt I hope you figure things out Dwyer the Bushman |
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| grolly Regular Member Joined: 19/05/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 62 |
thanks ross, btw how long and ( more importantly) how much to get to where you are, It seems to me that you have a fairly comprehensive setup. ps How did the techie blow the batteries? Grolly I have bought the farm...now I AM powering it... |
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| RossW Guru Joined: 25/02/2006 Location: AustraliaPosts: 495 |
Well, the "how much" is "a lot more than I wanted" (but still substantially less than the alternative. I'm not actually sure. The *TRADIES* (not techies) ruined the batteries by ignoring my very specific instructions. These cells were only recently installed at the time (like, a matter of days) having been in storage for 8 months. They really needed carefully brought "back on line". Despite instructions to the contrary, they ran everything they could off them, without bothering to run the genset which was here for the purpose. They ran their kettle for smoko, and their big 1.5KW floodlights. They ran the heat guns, and everything else. Problem is there were 3 lots of trades on site at the time. Unfortunately, I was unavoidably out of town for a week and simply could not be back here. They ran the batteries until the inverter cut out. But they found if they turned it off and back on it would run again. So they kept doing this until it wouldn't start again. Then they just left them. (With the low voltage water pump still connected, continuing to suck them flat) By the time I got back, I was too late. The batteries were all bulging - to the point they were so tight I couldn't slide them apart, I had to start from one end. Everybody claimed it wasn't them, but the evidence was clear. Their jug, and the floodlights were still on-side and cabled in. (I'd left them two big high-power sodium lights that made as much light but only took 100W, but they didn't use them!) Was a good thing I didn't have a gun..... Total cost of the inverter, generator, two sets of batteries (the original 48 x 300AH and the new 24 x 500AH), the solar panels, tracker and windgen probably close to $34K, but if I was doing it all again I reckon about $20-25K would probably cover it. |
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| grolly Regular Member Joined: 19/05/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 62 |
Total cost of the inverter, generator, two sets of batteries (the original 48 x 300AH and the new 24 x 500AH), the solar panels, tracker and windgen probably close to $34K, but if I was doing it all again I reckon about $20-25K would probably cover it. Thanks ross, I am looking at abt 1/4 of that initially, ( counting the pennies at the moment, just spent $3500.00 on floor coverings today ) will proberly not run an elec kettle, thats what the gas cooktop is for, just want lights, computer, tv, fridge, and will proberly run the gen for the washing machine. costings so far $4298.00 ..invertor ( 1600/4000/24v) regulator 60A, solar panels 130Wx2, 4x6Vx438Ah batteries in case the s/h ones don`t come up to scratch. should give me enough till I get the wind gen built, and more pennies in the bank... do you think that is a good start or should I go bigger? Grolly I have bought the farm...now I AM powering it... |
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| RossW Guru Joined: 25/02/2006 Location: AustraliaPosts: 495 |
My *HONEST* opinion is that if you're planning to go bigger "some time in the future", money you spend on a 24V system now, is *DEAD MONEY* In a year from now, or two... whatever, when your finances permit (and frustration with the limitations of your 24V system get you down), you will rue the day you settled for a stopgap measure. I'm regularly chatting with a few others who are now "locked in" to the 24V system, and HATE it. They never have enough money at once to replace the bits, but because all the other parts are 24, they're in the cycle and just can't get out of it. 48V is more expensive now - the inverters are only slightly more expensive, but your prime cost is on batteries. If I were in your shoes, I'd probably try to get twice as many cells of half (or less) capacity in order to get to 48V now. Get the 48V inverter now. If you can't afford 48V panels, perhpaps an inverter/charger that will take 24V in and charge 48V batteries - or re-arrange your panels so you can get 48V. Instead of 2, 12V 125W panels you could get 4, 12V/60W panels? Try to keep your costs the same, but up the system volts to 48V and you will save, save, save. Smaller wire. Less losses. Lower currents. Cheaper fuses. And I can relate to the floorcoverings.... we were lucky, we purchased 4 tonnes (!) of hardwood on ebay when we did ours. Paid $6/lineal metre for it (100mm wide boards) when everyone else aroung here was quoting us $160/sq m. and most of them were only a thin venere over crapwood, we got 19mm solid boards! (Still cost us a fortune though - we got a lot of floor!) |
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| dwyer Guru Joined: 19/09/2005 Location: AustraliaPosts: 573 |
Hi Ross I do agree with your ideas over 24 volts and 48 volts as cheaper on the long run however l had alook at E-bay sometimes for some Deep cycle batteries as one for sale 2V 500Ah DEEP CYCLE AGM BATTERIES Suit 12 Volt or 24V ENERSYS 2T500/2 Length 238mm X Width 208mm X Height 260mm however the weight is only 33kg and the cost only just$100 each if l buy 24 (48 volts) off will cost me $2400 plus freight anyway before l make my mind up l wonder if this high quality batteries as l am not to sure if i am on the right track or can you able give me right advise ??? Dwyer the bushman |
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| RossW Guru Joined: 25/02/2006 Location: AustraliaPosts: 495 |
You mean like these: 
And my main battery string: 
Been using them for a year and they've been fab. No issues whatsoever. Who's the seller? It its my mad mate in Melbourne, he is prepared to haggle on price, especially if you're taking 24 of them. Nice chap too. I hooked up the trailer and went for a drive. Melbourne is only 3 hours each way for me, it was a nice saturday morning drive. Down, picked up my solar tracker and the batteries in one trip. What I saved in freight for one covered petrol down and back, the other was just a bonus :) |
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| dwyer Guru Joined: 19/09/2005 Location: AustraliaPosts: 573 |
Hi Ross thank for your kind help as l didnt know that you were using same batteries as l looking for on E-Bay and the seller is 63ute or contact ej2106@hotmail.com but dont know his name . kind regard ian |
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| grolly Regular Member Joined: 19/05/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 62 |
Ross, Would you be able to contact your mate and see if he has more of these batteries,at $100 each (2t500/2) , if so I would like 24 of them. thanks Grolly I have bought the farm...now I AM powering it... |
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| permaclutter Newbie  Joined: 04/02/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 19 |
scrap yards can be a good source of batteries. I have bought 4 sets of them about 1 KA/h each in the last 18 months for less than $1000 all lovely AGM/VRSLA beasts. Sold three of them and got mine for nothing. still making 3 hoseholds very happy with thier bargains. these where from huge ups systems, the batts have a design life of 12 years and are replaced after 5, they then end up with scap metal merchants who can be very generous at times if they dont have other ways to move stuff, both dealers i have dealt with where very happy to think they were helping some one while still making huge profits on the 40 cents/kg they paid to some dope who is so tied up in the rat race that this was the only way they could think of to get rid of 2 ton of stuff my best bit of advice though is to ask yourself what you realy need and to turn things of. the you beut inverters are wonderfull things but very easy to use, read that as too easy to use, in my opinion many times i have visited friends to find things like huge selectronis inverters running just to power the red led at the bottom of the tv personaly i like big switches that isolate everything if i want 3 compact flouros to give me light i turn on a nasty little 120 W inverter then turn it of when i go to bed, if i want a grinder or drill i turn on a 3Kva ups and turn it of when the task is done. A 6Kva petrol genset gets started only after the whole job is ready to be welded up in one go, usualy with a mate grinding my dreadfull welding at the same time. just becuse the electric came from the sun or the wind dosent make it cheap, its taken a lot of effort to get it in my batteries so I want to keep it there (unless the batts are floating, in which case go for it, i have even pluged in the electric light in my gas fridge during the day in summer to see cold beer) Oh and gas fridges absolutely rock Cheers Permaclutter |
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| permaclutter Newbie Joined: 04/02/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 19 |
Grolly are you still wanting batteries Found some of these yellow Super Safe t 2t500/2 today, about a dozen Also Yuasa uxl 550 2fr maybe 3 doz 2nd hand $30 each all look very nice no bulging or nasty bits didnt have multimeter in ute but can go back ass they are 5 or 6 km from home if interested ? |
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| grolly Regular Member Joined: 19/05/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 62 |
Hi lyn, Yes I am interested, at $30 better than $100 each, let me know in what condition the 12 2t500/2's are in. by the way, are you in adelaide? Grolly I have bought the farm...now I AM powering it... |
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