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Forum Index : Electronics : 7 phase f&p delta setup..
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indexterslabor Newbie  Joined: 03/08/2008 Location: Posts: 15 |
hi there, iīm new at homegrown power. i know in many forum boards out there, newbies are not quite welcome and there questions where answered by ^use our search engine bevore post ne topics^ however, i couldnt find a anything helpful with the search button. i live in germany europe, thats why me english kinda sucks^^ but iīll do my best to clarify what i ment. now the question.. i want to build a patrol engine powered generator with the cute 1hp engine from a chainsaw. i want to use a f&p stator with 42 poles like the one which is called 7p2p or maybe 7p1p. but i would prever to set it up in a delta connection, not a star connection. and i donīt understand how to do it, and since i live in europe, the stator gonna cost me about 120$ out of ebay. i donīt want to mess it up and brake someting. could anyone draw something for me how to wire this thing. thx.  |
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| indexterslabor Newbie Joined: 03/08/2008 Location: Posts: 15 |
.. oh, i want to have a solid 12Volt system with quite good amount of current, i want to power a car stereo in my treehouse and mybe some light.. of course i would use a 1F capacitor in between the stereo and the generator output^^ ..an maybe a little 12 volt car batteri^^ |
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Gizmo Admin Group  Joined: 05/06/2004 Location: AustraliaPosts: 5012 |
Hi indexterslabor Your gong to need a bigger motor, that chain saw motor can only make usable power for a very short duration. I tried to make something similar using a wheed eater motor powering a old VW generator, it didn't work very well. You would be better off using a lawn mower motor connected to a car alternator. Its a proven set up. Glenn The best time to plant a tree was twenty years ago, the second best time is right now. JAQ |
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| indexterslabor Newbie Joined: 03/08/2008 Location: Posts: 15 |
thx for reply, i appreciate. but i donīt like the car alternators efficientcy, i wanīt to work with a p&f motor because it seems like a lot of fun to modify it and i hope to get better results out of it, well, the chainsaw engine really spins fast, and i feel a bit sorry for it cuz itīs laying around without use.. anyway, if its to weak i might get a mower engine, but i really got to know how to rewire the stator.. |
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Gill Senior Member  Joined: 11/11/2006 Location: AustraliaPosts: 669 |
G'day indexterslabor, I could draw you up a rewire in 7 phase delta, but which one do you want? I'm a bit like Glenn and query the wisdom of the project. If you're wanting to play wouldn't a standard F&P be better and cheaper? I don't see the coggless feature of the 7 phase has any value on a motor driven setup. Perhaps you'll realise this is why there is no sketch of the wiring. Other arrangements are better in simplicity and price for your stated purpose. Still if your mind is made up and this is not just some whimsical notion, I'll put in an hour or sos work to do you a pretty picture. I've not heard of a 7 phase Delta being made to date, so let me know the arrangement you want. was working fine... til the smoke got out. Cheers Gill _Cairns, FNQ |
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| Gizmo Admin Group Joined: 05/06/2004 Location: AustraliaPosts: 5012 |
Hi indexterslabor. The 7 phase conversion gives us a F&P with no cogging and slightly better power, but involves a component miss-match and major re-configuration of the coils. The no cogging is needed for windmill applications where startup can be a problem, but for a engine powered set up, a standard 3 phase F&P would work perfectly. I would suggest you use a standard 3 phase F&P to get your feet wet, it would be cheaper and you'll learn just as much. You could use the chain saw motor on a little scoota  I fitted a weed eater motor onto a kids scoota a couple of years ago, good fun!
Glenn The best time to plant a tree was twenty years ago, the second best time is right now. JAQ |
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| indexterslabor Newbie Joined: 03/08/2008 Location: Posts: 15 |
hehe, i like the idea with the scooter^^ however, the point is, i want to use a very tiny engine and get lots of power out of it, so thatīs why i came up with the coggless 7phase thingy. hmm, i have already consittered different wirering configurations, and to me it looks like the highest efficiency come out of the 7 phase setup, please correct me if iīm wrong. so i dont want high voltage, but good amount off current.. maybe a 12 or 24 volt system but good current. i dunno much about electric motors, hmm, maybe you guys could teach me the advantages and disadvantages of different wireing like delta and star and about stuff. maybe i should think it over again. |
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| Robb Senior Member Joined: 01/08/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 221 |
You would need to gear if down in a big way or the poor little motor will not have enough power. I dont think it is likly to last long eather + it will be very heavy on fuel and 2 stroke oil and very inefficiant. Chainsaw engines need to run rather rich on fuel mix or they everheat and wear out real fast. A larger 4 stroke is probably more feasable. |
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CraziestOzzy Senior Member Joined: 11/07/2008 Location: AustraliaPosts: 135 |
I agree with most replies to your idea of using a chainsaw as a motor to drive your generator. As already mentioned, use a larger motor, like a four stroke lawn mower motor. Look at these links for some wiring examples I pulled from my favourites that may be of interest --- or change your mind from using a chainsaw motor... 7 phase conversion Interesting read for F&P build Star configuration Star and Delta plus good forum read Coffee cup read on DIY http://cr4.globalspec.com/member?u=25757 http://www.instructables.com/member/OzzyRoo/ |
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| indexterslabor Newbie Joined: 03/08/2008 Location: Posts: 15 |
oh, that is some interesting stuff in the links, thx. ok, i thought without cogging it might also turn more easily and then the little engine would be strong enought.. but i can get a larger 4 stroke motor.. but still i need to know how i get the most power out of the f&p motor. and what kind i should use, i though a 42pole stator with .80mm wire is the best, or is there a better one?? is it hard to change the mags to neodynium magnets?? iīm still planning all the things, then i decide an start to build the thing, thats why i ask alot of questions..^^ what stator is the best, and whatīs the benefit of the 7phase thingii or does it produce less power since the parts actually donīt really fit together?? edit.^^ ok now i actually know what i want. i want a powerful generator to power my treehouse. there is a laptop that need to get chargeg, a couple of lightbulbs out a car headlight, a car stereo that is not in use yet, and soon maybe a tiny refrigerator. and maybe more..  sounds like a mad kid^^ no^^. ok and i donīt want to use the sweet chainsaw engine anymore. so whats the best setup to get alot of power out of the f&p.. no matter how complicated the rewiring may be.  |
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| CraziestOzzy Senior Member Joined: 11/07/2008 Location: AustraliaPosts: 135 |
Changing the mags is described in some of the links I gave you. Scroll down to the bottom of this one for example (link) and view the following pages to answer other questions you raised. You are after amps, so have another look at (link) I gave you and scroll down to the bottom to view each step. This link describes how to control voltage and amps by wiring in combinations of series and parallel (and more). My thoughts on having a 48 pole versus anything less than that is that the 48 pole idea will require less RPM's to generate power than anything with a lower pole count (say 2 pole for instance). Obviously the strength of your magnets and size/length of total wire used will change the RPM value to with respect to power output. Perhaps revisiting the basics may keep your head back on track here (link) http://cr4.globalspec.com/member?u=25757 http://www.instructables.com/member/OzzyRoo/ |
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| indexterslabor Newbie Joined: 03/08/2008 Location: Posts: 15 |
ok thx. i read more about it and then i goin to draw a wiring config by myself, then i ask gill if it seems right^^ but could someone tell me whats the difference if it is wired to star compared to delta?? letīs say the same wire configuration,but one is in star the other one in delta config..  |
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| indexterslabor Newbie Joined: 03/08/2008 Location: Posts: 15 |
gill would u pls draw a 7p1pole delta i donīt get it^^ 
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| Gill Senior Member Joined: 11/11/2006 Location: AustraliaPosts: 669 |
OK indextorslabor, Here's the wiring you asked for. See I told you it would be a pretty picture. Well maybe not so pretty but certainly colourful. At first it may just seem like a bunch of lines, but when looked at carefully, a pattern will emerge. 
out 1 to in 3 makes phase a out 3 to in 5 makes phase b out 5 to in 7 makes phase c out 7 to in 2 makes phase d out 2 to in 4 makes phase e out 4 to in 6 makes phase f out 6 to in 1 makes phase g See how you go with that. 
PS. Personally, I would not go with this arrangement because of the liklihood of high circulating harmonic currents. I would use Inde. This is where each pole number is independently rectified then parrelled with all the other phases DC. Use schottky diodes to minnimise the extra diode losses. Gill EDIT: This is the same thing but a more organised layout 
was working fine... til the smoke got out. Cheers Gill _Cairns, FNQ |
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| indexterslabor Newbie Joined: 03/08/2008 Location: Posts: 15 |
well actually itīs pretty simple, but i donīt really understand the polarisation of the poles?? to me it looks like the phases would shortcut itself because of the coils polarisation?? hmm however, i did not pay attention to the circulatin currents.. ur right, itīs not the best arrangement^^ i going to think it over again. |
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feix62k Newbie Joined: 30/07/2008 Location: AustraliaPosts: 36 |
hi Ive just about got all the bits 3 moters 2 older ones and one newer model with the solid magnets whats the easiest one to start with wireing I can use a soldering iron but just need a real simple guide to cut and resolder ,what would be the most efficiant setup and still keep it practical and simple for the novice I dont really understand what we are cutting and soldering, also what wires end up as the main outlet thanks for the patiants any help well appreciated dont the days seem lank and long when nothing gos right and everthing gos wrong |
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| feix62k Newbie Joined: 30/07/2008 Location: AustraliaPosts: 36 |
whats the best the star or delta eg easiest for me sorry for being a dummy I found a page randys workshop I will try that,Gill ccould you please send me that link again for wiring as I have missplaced it thanks felix dont the days seem lank and long when nothing gos right and everthing gos wrong |
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| Gill Senior Member Joined: 11/11/2006 Location: AustraliaPosts: 669 |
G'day Felix, Sorry mate, but I didn't post any links. CrazestOzzy posted heaps and they are still available in his posts above. Star is usually used for wind generators as it gives a higher voltage per rev than Delta. Delta is more suited for high revving drives such as petrol motors and micro hydro. Star: higher voltage at lower current so when battery charging starts putting current in sooner and when wind driven that is most of the time. Delta: lower voltage at higher current so with battery charging current doesn't flow until voltage exceeds the batteries and when wind driven this is far less of the time. A $10 note in your pocket every day is better than a $20 note once a week. $20 note is bigger, sure, but that's the nature of wind. As for wiring, go to the home page of this site, then to 'info & projects'. From there several topics are accessible and are important when building a wind generator, but the one for rewiring is 'Rewiring the F & P Stator' which is where this LINK takes you. If you are still having troubles, by all means ask and Glenn, myself or others can help. I see you are in Caloundra. I think the closest to you that I know who could help is at Mt Tambourine but you might need to take holidays to get there?
was working fine... til the smoke got out. Cheers Gill _Cairns, FNQ |
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| feix62k Newbie Joined: 30/07/2008 Location: AustraliaPosts: 36 |
hi crazy ozzie just looking at your star series conections have wired all the 1,2,3 and can understand the 4,5,6 wires being joined to coulerd wires ,question do all the 1,2,3 wires get joined all together to a main wire or just the 2 ends doesnt say in your diagrams, great sight thanks, please need help asap as I have started soldering Shane alias felix dont the days seem lank and long when nothing gos right and everthing gos wrong |
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