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Forum Index : Electronics : On line project
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Downwind Guru  Joined: 09/09/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2333 |
Hi All. I see there has been a little interest in building data loggers and also noticed that electronics is somewhat outside of the depths of abilities of many. What I am considering is a on line forum project about building a data logger so a beginner in electronics can construct one of these things in stage by stage steps. The idea is to help others understand some basics in electronics and some programming of picaxe’s etc. We all start some where and need a little help to begin with. This is not a project I wish to do alone and would like to know if I can generate the interest of other members to help get this up and running. Gordon, Trev, Vasi, Oztules, and anyone else, can I count on you guys to pitch in on this. I am prepared to do the artwork for the pcb and even make a small batch of pcb’s for a small fee to cover board and postage cost if need be. I would rather people make their own if able but not everyone can do this. I would like to do a two part project with the intension of the logger being wireless. The first half being the base of the logger with the ability to take a 433.92 Mhz transmitter module. The second part being the receiver for the 433.92 Mhz module. Both modelled around the 08M picaxe for simplicity and cost. The wireless part would be optional but the board would be capable of either way. The board would be designed for through hole components (sorry Gordon) for ease of ability of the lesser skilled constructors. Who is prepared to put their hand up to assist in this. Secondly and more importantly who is interested in being involved in such a project to build a data logger and learn something about electronic construction from scratch. I would aim for a budget of lets say $50.00 for a ball park figure but have not costed things out and would depend on where you accessed the parts from. The over design would be based around Gizmos data logger and Gordons refinements if I am able to access them. With a view to keep things simple but practical. I look forward to any input anyone can offer. Pete. Sometimes it just works |
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GWatPE Senior Member  Joined: 01/09/2006 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2127 |
Hi Pete, I will be looking at making a USB powered 433MHz comms dongle, suitable for a modern netbook type PC. I have found a USB-ser component from Farnell. This unit looks promising. I had modified a Belkin unit for 433Mhz comms previously, but it will not work on Vista64 or win7. This new unit has drivers for all OS including Mac amd Linux, in addition to winXP up to win7. I am currently logging 5 different applications from 1 PC. I hope to consolidate some of the functions in the future. This is an IntelAtom unit. Power is only 14W, and this is directly connected to my nom 24V RE LiPo battery. I am not sure how to gauge demand for this type of unit. I have asked for feedback on other threads, but we seem to be a rare breed when it comes to data logging. I mainly dabble to allow me to refine my own RE setup. Making a PCB available that is exactly based on the cct provided in The Piclog article might be the best. Adding TX RF COMMS is not too much of a problem on the piclog hardware end. If the RX can be made into a universal component, this would help the PC logger end. I still have more loose ends to tie up in the VB software. The COMMS still cause unexpected results after long logging periods. Gordon. become more energy aware |
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Gizmo Admin Group  Joined: 05/06/2004 Location: AustraliaPosts: 5024 |
I would like to see the logger store the data locally, then dump the data to a PC perodically either via the 433MHz Tx/Rx combo or a serial/usb cable manually plugged into the logging unit. The PicLog was a good learning experience for me and others, but it does need a PC to store the data. The late Gill put together a wind speed logger based on the PicAxe and cheap eeprom chips. His article is here... http://www.thebackshed.com/windmill/articles/GillsDataLogger .asp Glenn The best time to plant a tree was twenty years ago, the second best time is right now. JAQ |
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| Downwind Guru Joined: 09/09/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2333 |
Hi Guys, Gordon, Yes we are a rear breed that is becoming extinct fast and would like to try to give some that are willing to give it a go, a chance to dabble into the black magic of electronics as we have. The basic circuit I was thinking of was not to be the best we can do by far, but a basic project to introduce others to electronics. (small component count) The KISS theory – keep it simple s? Some may be even challenged at soldering. We tend to take our own abilities for granted. The question is can I count on you to help get this up and running?? Gizmo, I had checked out Gill’s circuit and considered doing something on similar lines but as I said above KISS was the aim. I am still interested in doing a version of Gill’s circuit but using a 18X picaxe instead as it has i2c and 2 pins can then run the display and anything else you care to hang off the i2c buss line including a keypad, Eeprom, At-keyboard, RTC, led displays, etc. as each has its own address and answers to the master when called upon, in the mean time just go about what they were last told to do. This sort of system is simple and has low component count but requires more programming skills. Lets say level 2 in electronic projects. Guys, Back to level 1 If it was possible to get enough interest in the first place on both sides, than break the project into sections and present stages weekly with a how and why. Perhaps Gordon you do a section on the voltage divider network and Gizmo you do a bit in opto couplers and so on to create the project a bit like S/Chip would present something, but ongoing and a forum involvement. To start with it needs to be a basic project to allow others to built their abilities And to use a 433.92Mhz module is a simple software command of 2-3 lines and gives the “ Hey look what I managed to build” sense of achievement. It is unlimited where this can go and the amount of projects we cover if we get a pool a people prepared to contribute, but 1 step at a time. The biggest part is a circuit design and putting it onto a board the rest is descriptive of how to shove it in the hole and solder, plus programming. Im sure you all bought a DS kit before, how about a TBS on line project. BTW did you guys pic up on the posting by Newbie Frackers in Electronics/battery monitoring circuitry, a very good read on his article and food for thought. Pete. Sometimes it just works |
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Tinker Guru Joined: 07/11/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1904 |
Gentlemen, you asked for expressions of interest on DIY remote data logging, you can count me in. My recently commisioned solar tracker & battery bank is now partly powering my house and I am dabbling with wind generators to supplement this. It would be nice to log the input and output of my battery bank, all I have now are instantaneous current/ voltage readings at the battery bank and a plug in KWh meter gadget. The idea of building and programming a little gadget to do that remotely does intrigue me but where to start? A ready made PCB would be a great help there. I have no problems with soldering and component identification, its just that particular application is totally new to me. Great idea Pete  Klaus |
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| Downwind Guru Joined: 09/09/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2333 |
klaus, You have a front row seat should this be worthy of getting off the ground. I feel there is many lurkeers of electronic that are "wish i could make that" sort of people bit like yourself, but dont know where to start. I have your paw print on the list. Thanks for the reply Pete. Sometimes it just works |
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| GWatPE Senior Member Joined: 01/09/2006 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2127 |
Hi Gizmo, I agree about the concept of remote logging but problems occur if you need to download, or transfer data when the memory gets full. The logging function has to remain active during the downloading. The PC has almost limitless logging capacity. I have been logging for several months now, at 10sec intervals. I have increased the number of applications recording from 1 to now 5. I have experienced data loss from my wireless weather station [presumably due to the conflicts with operation of 4 x 433MHz systems in close proximity to a Wi-Fi lan and cordless phones???]. Hi Pete, I cannot see any way of pulling this off. I tend to look at the whole picture. I think vasi does as well. The best people would come from a teaching or industry field, preferably retired, with time to dabble. I will maintain a presence, and butt in from time to time. I would like to participate, but summer is here. Good luck with your plans. On the remote logging aspect. My own systems are logged remotely. I just happen to use a PC as the dedicated logger. Most days, 5 applications log around 3MB of data. I only log raw data in XML type format, with a time stamp for the logged time for each group of records. I connect through the wireless Lan/router to the remote computer to access and view the data. There are already systems to acces stuff remotely that are off the shelf and available, at low cost. The wireless 433MHz USB stick unit I intend working on will still only connect to the remote logging PC and not the main PC. Watching from the sidelines. Gordon. become more energy aware |
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| Downwind Guru Joined: 09/09/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2333 |
Hi Gordon I did kinda expected this to run into a brick wall but thought it was worth a try. It will only work with a collective involvement of others. To All I will leave it open to the end of the month and then ask Gizmo to close the thread should it be a dead end. I must make a correction. Gill did use a 18X in his project I thought it was a 28X. If an 18X was used in the project instead of the cheaper 08M than an $10.00 extra per chip would result. Using an 18X would allow for i2c eeprom to be used. The eeprom could be unplugged and replaced with a second eeprom card while the first is downloaded. I am not sure on how much data could be collected on 64K of eeprom memory. Perhaps Gordon can answer that for me. Wireless could also be used with eeprom if desired and the eeprom being at the receiver end or both ends if wanted. The cost of eeprom is about $2.00 per chip so low cost. The eeprom i have used before is a smd chip and have mounted them on a sister board and plug them in on header pins. I have not put a circuit together for this as yet and was waiting to see what thoughts came in from others and if there was enough interest to bother. I might still do it regardless as tinker is keen to have a go. All this is of no use to me as i dont have a re system to use it on or test it with and was only offering this for the benefit of others. Pete. Sometimes it just works |
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| Downwind Guru Joined: 09/09/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2333 |
Tinker, If you just want to have a play with wireless TX & RX I have a few sets of boards made here for a different project. ( the ones pictured in the making pcb article) They will transmit battery voltage, program codes, board settings etc. and have a spare pin on board that could be used for current with the addition of a resistor, zener diode network added in a off board mount, used in conjunction with a shunt resistor. You will need to supply your own 433.92 Mhz TX & RX modules (they just plug into sockets provided) and 2 x 08M picaxe’s other wise the boards are complete. Recording the data to a pc is beyond me and not my in field. ( I know my limitations but others could help you here ) I can bring the data up on screen in Picaxe programmer using the Terminal window, but not record it. It is fun to take the data and belt it through the air, pick it up the other end and display it on the pc screen. It would give you a reasonable insight into how to construct and program using wireless systems. Very basic really. If this is somewhat of interest to you send me an email. Pete. Sometimes it just works |
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| Tinker Guru Joined: 07/11/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1904 |
Thanks for the offer Pete. Thinking about that wireless data transmission, it really is not required in my situation, just 'interesting' if it was easy to do. My battery bank is in the big shed behind the house and what I would like to have is a data logger to see what's going on over time with my RE power supply. Displaying this on a laptop might be too complicated for me as Gordon hinted, I think I'll do what he suggests and look into cheap readily available data loggers. I can see a lot of 'googling' coming up  Klaus |
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| Gizmo Admin Group Joined: 05/06/2004 Location: AustraliaPosts: 5024 |
I think we are all missing one of the best features of a microprocessor based circuit, the software. The PicLog I put together a few years ago used a little PicAxe 08M processor, because I wanted to see if I could fit a datalogger into one tiny 8 pin chip. It would have been easier to use a 18A, but not as much fun. Now that same circuit board, with its mosfet, could also be used as a windmill controller, this was designed into it. With a software change, it could also be used as a pump controller, low battery alarm, PWM motor drive, courtesy light delay, etc, etc. Its just software. So is there any reason we cant design a better circuit, based on a more powerfull chip with its extra IO pins, and then develope the software to give it the functions we want. If the i2e interface is there, then we can add eeproms and a dallas time chip and change the software to use it, or not, depending on how you want to use the logger. A Mosfet or 2 can be included in the circuit to drive relays or whatever output we want, or we could just leave them out if we dont want to use them. Same with using a 433MHz module, the circuit has a space for it if you want it. Its all about designing a circuit that can be used in a variety of different ways, changing the software is easy. Glenn The best time to plant a tree was twenty years ago, the second best time is right now. JAQ |
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| Downwind Guru Joined: 09/09/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2333 |
Yes Glenn you are very correct in what you said and I think is a point often missed, that the software is not a hard fixed item like a pcb is, and is flexible to change. I see one problem. Not every one has the ability or the understanding to write the software or make the changes, and feel challenged at this to the point they will not attempt it. The bigger the board and the more variants added to the board only confuses the software even more to a novis. I spent some hours yesterday going through Gill’s software for his data logger. I must say the mans work is a true credit to him, and only wish he was still with us to help out here. Gill’s software is very good and was enough to do my head in, trying to get my mind around it. So the idea in the beginning was to keep it simple to allow for the lesser skilled to get a grip with software etc. and build from there. This thought looks to be a dead duck. Plan B. Design a better more universal circuit. I use to try to fit as much as I could onto one board but have changed somewhat and tend to do smaller boards and cascade them together to suit the end needs. I bring any unused pins out to header pins so they can be accessed if needed. With the use of I2C it is very much this way as each I2C item has its own board and plugs in via 4 pins to a common bus line, so you add each module as needed. Plug and Play. I already have some I2C circuits that will plug into the bus line and cover a lot of applications. For instance. A real time clock. Eeprom, LCD display, 4 digit 7seg led display, 12 key keypad, data expander, AT keyboard, printer driver. To name a few. All these can be plugged in together onto a single I2c bus line and work together. This uses 2 pins off the picaxe , 5v+ and neg- (4 wires common to all) It is just a software change to add and use any of them. To start the circuit design lets say these items are already covered and can be added at will. I would like to know what functions are desired to be had on the board. What you would like to log. What you would like to control. How would you like to handle this data. What sort of voltage are we designing for. Who can set up the pc end for this. Who could help with picaxe software. ( I can see a software nightmare coming) Time for a little brainstorming. Lets set the micro to be a 18X and build from there. IC pins 7 and 10 are already used for I2C the rest are free at this point. All input is welcome to this project. Any objectives of how to go about individual circuit sections is welcome. You don’t have to be good at electronics to contribute ideas. Pete. Sometimes it just works |
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| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi All I have been reading all your inputs to this project and find the concept very interesting however it is beyond my analog electrical experience but I would like to have a unit as described PIX chips and programming are beyond my expertise but I would like to put one together from circuit / kit type project and a universal programming format that works for computer dummies like me. The universal unit sounds the way to go as in my case I have 4 seperate battery banks 24v and 2 at 12v powered by solar and wind turbines to monitor at the present with anaolge means and a pencil note book combo. I dont get useable info by doing this just an estimate, not good enough. Would it be possible to put together a kit at a reasonable price as I feel sure once it gets out on the forums it would take off. Perhaps modular add ons to the chipwould be the way to go rather than building a titanic from scratch sneek up on it so as to make it easier for us dummies to do. Start with high capicity chip and power supply and add blocks as needed, easier for the devoloper/s and us dummies, All the best Bob Foolin Around |
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powerednut Senior Member Joined: 09/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 221 |
Hi All, I'm interested in this datalogger project as well, though I'm not much of a PIC person. I tend to use the AVRs these days, mostly due to the developer tools. Can I suggest a SD card might be a useful device to store the data logs? They are relatively cheap, high capacity and available pretty much anywhere these days. Plus if you can't be stuffed paying for a SD card holder you can just solder to one of those microSD to SD cards directly and then use the microSD (don't know if that made sense). Article on interfacing a PIC to an SD card: http://mondo-technology.com/sdcard.htm |
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| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi Powerednut I like the idea of the sd card as that would do away with the tr / rc complication however I still couldnt make one without help due to limited knoweledge to do such things for that we need experts. Bob Foolin Around |
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| Downwind Guru Joined: 09/09/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2333 |
Hi guys, Thanks for the response. I started this thread to see what interest was out there to do a project with the idea that others like yourselves could learn some of the basics. So far there has been little interest and i have almost given up on the idea. The chip i had intended to use was the Picaxe 18X as it is an easy chip to program and you dont need a background in programming to be able to use or understand it. The same goes for any picaxe chips. The programming of Pic's is a little harder and outside the ability of the average novis. As for the idea of using SD cards i had looked into this and asked on another thread on others thoughts. If we were to use SD cards or even usb drives/sticks than i would be tempted to make use of a prebuilt board that would allow it to be interfaced with the picaxe. The reason for this is whats required to write data to a sd or usb is pushing the boundrys of a picaxe and by the time you built all the required bits needed it would be cheaper to buy the sd board and build the rest to interface with it. The SD boards i found are here ** SD & USB Boards If you guys are still interested than i will give it a bit more thought, but it will be a over time project and develop along the way. What data do you wish to be able to log? Pete. Sometimes it just works |
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| powerednut Senior Member Joined: 09/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 221 |
well, i'm not at all familiar with PICAXEs and their capability or otherwise, but the electronics interface from a microcontroller to a SD card is relatively straight forward. The code isn't that hard either normally... Anyway, that said it was just a thought, and I'm not fussed either way. |
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| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi Pete The little I know about Pic.s I have learned from these forums and I would like to learn more as I think we should be alert to advance ourskills whenever possible. I would like to monitor and record the function of my systen so I can prove that it is working and viable if nothing else to myself and the sceptics who think we are wasteing our time trying to do something for the enviroment by recycling junk into a solution for our own and others power requirements.The functions I would like to record are wind speeds related to mills speeds and power output for checking modifications for improvements or otherwise. To record the performance of PV cells volts verses amps with temperature and inclination angle of the cells fixed and tracking devices also the overal performance of each module, mill or PV related to usage and dumped power, also grid feed figures to be able to work out if it is practical to do a system that would contribute to community power needs. I think my expectations exceed what is practical so the modular add on seems to be the way to go. That means having a robust core with plenty of excess capacity that we can grow into. I think once it became available in a kit form it would take off as people use it as a standard to compare their results. I hope it goes ahead but that is the perogative of those with the skill and determination to do so. All the best Bob Foolin Around |
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| Downwind Guru Joined: 09/09/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2333 |
Hi Bob, The problem with a project like this is to keep it in the realm of others ability. The thought i had behind this idea was not to set out to construct a circuit that would cover everyones needs but a circuit that allowed others to get their foot in the door to programming and electronics. This would open some doors for other designs and adaptations as people's understanding and ability grew. For instance what you would like to log is a lot (as you said.) The problem i see is with the micro used to have a big enough ability to handle such tasks. This then makes it a complicated matter of programming and it gets too hard for someone without a background in this area. The picaxe is a slow chip compared to other choices but is the easiest to program and to learn and the whole idea is for you and others to learn and understand what you are doing and not just dump a program into a chip with not being able to make changes. The circuit design is a rather basic part to a project like this and the bigger part is in the programming. Everyones needs will be slightly different and that is where programming will allow for these changes to be made to suit the application. I think the best way to perhaps tackle this sticking with the Picaxe 18X and as you said with a modular approach. One of the functions of the 18X is a facility called I2C. This allows 1 x 18X to act as a master and other 18X's or I2C chips to be setup as slaves. This uses 2 x pins on the master which are connected to a common bus that has 5v+, V-, Data, Clock. all the slaves connect to this common bus line ( just a 4 pin connection for each) The slaves record and process the data from battery, wind, solar, or what ever ??, and passes it to the master when asked. The master can then write the data to eeprom, sd card, pc, lcd, or whatever you want to do with it. A method like this allows for another slave to be built and added as needed for what ever purpose. It also makes programming easier as it helps eliminate some of the timing problems that are encounted. The Sd boards i posted a link for, in an above post, is also I2C compatible and could be plugged into the bus line and with a software change in the master you have a instant SD card slave. You mentioned you would like to record wind speed. Do you have any way of generating this data to start with. As this is another project to build. I am at present working on building an anemometer which uses a 08M picaxe and it would be a good project to start with to get a basic feel for programming and the picaxe and can be incorporated with the data logger when built. I built one using the head assembly from an old video and this gives 6 pulses of data per rev via hall sensor, but feel it is not enough data per rev and have changed the design to use the guts from an old hard drive. Would you be interested in building an anemometer? You would need to find an old HDD. (standard 3.5" drive ) Pete. Sometimes it just works |
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| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi Pete Sounds to me like we are on the one phase. I dont understand the method of adding slaves but know the principal involved, I was thinking of a pair of multiplexing chips origionally but the slave solution does the same thing and maintains the simple approach, if a board was designed with a number of sockets already in place then circuitry could be added in the future as required. I had a look at the board for sd card and it looks good to me only I have no idea how to interface it { expert required} no need to reinvent the wheel if it works use it. The other thing I was wondering is how do we translate the information in the computer and present it in a standard understand by all format. I have a number of old computers around as I hate to throw things away so HD shouldn't be a problem. I was thinking of a hall effect senser with slotted disk but am flexiable for all ideas. I use threaded rod as resistance for amp measurement would that work with pic? No real hurry for the project but would make things much easier to monitor and check out the performance of various blade combinations and capacitor power factor correction for windmills. It is hard to get a real comparison with wind because the parameters are seldom identical. All the best Bob Foolin Around |
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