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Forum Index : Electronics : F&P motors as motors
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| permaclutter Newbie  Joined: 04/02/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 19 |
Do we have any experience out there of people using these as motors? Or am I just thinking silly thoughts Lyn |
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Gill Senior Member  Joined: 11/11/2006 Location: AustraliaPosts: 669 |
G'day Lyn, Yes I do. 2 loads every week. Sorry, couldn't help myself. What exactly did you want to do? was working fine... til the smoke got out. Cheers Gill _Cairns, FNQ |
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Gizmo Admin Group  Joined: 05/06/2004 Location: AustraliaPosts: 5019 |
Lyn, yes it can be done, but its not easy. If you have a look here at this old Solar Car web site I was involved in a few years ago, on the Scrap Book page, you will see we used a F&P to drive the solar car. But there were lots of problems and we eventually gave up on the idea. There were too many problems with the power mosfets and control circuitry, beyound our abilities to fix. Gill, very clever, had to think about that for a second or two. Glenn The best time to plant a tree was twenty years ago, the second best time is right now. JAQ |
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| permaclutter Newbie Joined: 04/02/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 19 |
I find myself looking at drill presses annd concrete mixerers, in disrepair and thinking, just dial in the speed and it could all be good, I have about 8 of these things laying about waiting to do stuff and at the same time I have a need for motors. A nother silly thought is to establish yet another standard. hippy three phase hey if it mixes mud and drills holes its good by me Dunlite ceated there own world, in the fifties with 32 volt systems, I live on a 6Kva genset( used about twice a year) and 64 watts of solar panmnels Sorrry me if it,s been a bit of a rave but i would lke the genset to rot for lack of use lyn |
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| brucedownunder2 Guru  Joined: 14/09/2005 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1548 |
I'm sure ecoinnovation (Michael Lawley) would have the knowledge to give us ,but he's a busy guy , and probably not been asked this question . I reckon we could just use certain parts of the control board and take out the relevant switches to give us forward,back,fast, slow. The other very important factor is safety. people might be very hesitant in forwarding infomation concerning mod's when 240v ac is involved. We all know (hopefully), that there is lethal ac voltages being produced across the 3 or 7 phases when the homemade windmill is spinning fast. But connecting it up to a houshold power socket is semi-permanent. Please be very careful Bruce Bushboy |
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| jimovonz Newbie Joined: 09/04/2007 Location: Posts: 7 |
I have had some success in using the smartdrive as a motor. It is reasonably straight forward to derive a signal from the hall effect sensors and use it to drive some fets. I have a pretty basic circuit diagram here that I used to get full speed forward/reverse. I used pwm on the power supply (12V) to this circuit and achieved speed control as well, but it was not without problems. The motors need re-wiring to drive off low voltage (12/24 etc) It was quite a while ago that I did this and I haven't got time to go over it properly. The parts quoted are just whatever was closest in Circuitmaker. There are some .001 resisters that are just there to measure current. This shows the drive for one phase (I never built the full three phase driver). Anyway, for what its worth:  |
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| bill_gill85 Newbie Joined: 22/05/2007 Location: Posts: 3 |
@jimovonz, Do you have a schematic or connector pinout for the position sensor board. The board I have I have attempted to trace, however on testing we got no output. Much appreciated, Ben |
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| rpned Newbie Joined: 03/02/2006 Location: Posts: 4 |
Ben Have a look at a post I made in the topic Hall Effect circuit rpned Post 03 February 2006 at 7:00pm I found you need to supply 15V, as does the F&P Main Board. Reading the O/P's with a Picaxe 08M you will need to up the speed and not use the Picaxe programming editor run feature. If you don't use the Picaxe 08M as a stand alone, you'll miss most of the pulses, even turning the rotor slowly by hand. Cheers |
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| kloudster Newbie Joined: 30/07/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1 |
I,m totally new, so Hi everyone I,ve been working on O/U for a while now  and only just come to know about F@P motors, how Ni-Eve of me?!! guess the general Establishment was,nt putting it out there, it was only when I pulled a machine apart at our local scrap heap that I thought Crikey I,ve hit gold!! looking at that motor, my first thoughts were it,s so similar to Bendini,s motors!! Now what if I could rewire it to Pulse drive and generate?? But on further inspection of this wonderful motor I began to see it,s real potential, Ratio,s and the No.42? Wots the Question? don,t know but the answer Is 42!! Now how about just using one as the darned effiecient motor it is and coupling modified units to it, to generate Power? I,m no electric whiz but I figure useing multible units will provide overunity!! thoughts AnyOne and cheers from W>A>xx |
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| Gizmo Admin Group Joined: 05/06/2004 Location: AustraliaPosts: 5019 |
Hi kloudster. I'm afraid any talk of overunity will be quickly squashed on this board, and rightly so in my opinion. It just dont work, to quote Scottie from Star Trek, "you can not break the laws of physics". But the subject pops up every 6 months or so and I let the discussions take their course until the complaints from long time forum members start to show up in my in-tray, where by I lock the message thread and remind everyone this is a windmill/solar web site that uses real science to achieve something that actually works. Glenn The best time to plant a tree was twenty years ago, the second best time is right now. JAQ |
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nweeks Newbie Joined: 22/01/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 36 |
Probably the easiest way to drive an F&P motor is with a brushless DC motor controller used in radio controlled models There are many on the market now, and most of them are sensorless - essentially measuring backEMF from the motor on each phase to determine position. You'll need to parallel up your windings to get decent torque from 12v, but as PicAXE controllers can do servo outputs, and the brushless controllers have servo signal inputs, you can very quickly build machines with reversible, fully speed controlled motors using F&P units. Imagine a tank with F&P motors driving three wheels on each side, pulling your lawnmower around the yard - you could mow the lawn from your couch if you had a camera/2.4GHz video link to your TV! Haven't done it, but will do soon! Here's some controller's available in AU. Check eBay as well. http://www.modelflight.com.au/kontronik_speed_controller.htm http://www.hobbymodelwarehouse.com.au/index1.html Nigel Weeks nweeks at karbonit dot com |
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GWatPE Senior Member Joined: 01/09/2006 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2127 |
Hi Nigel, this thread is a bit old, but I have just read it. The use of sensorless speed controls as used in model aeroplanes and cars do not work with a F&P motor. I have several units including a 100A 3 phase model. None of the controllers would run a F&P as a motor. I tried a 100S and an 80S and a 60S and a 80SP that FandPwithPVC had loaned to me for testing. It would have been useful for other readers if you had done the follow up and posted your findings. I will assume that you have not tested your theory. I would not bother to specially buy a controller for a model in the hope it would work. I was lucky to have one from one of my electric planes that I could test with. cheers, Gordon. become more energy aware |
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| bill_gill85 Newbie Joined: 22/05/2007 Location: Posts: 3 |
@Nigel Sorry I hadn't posted this earlier, but I have been working for a good part of this year on getting a F&P motor running for an ev as part of a mechatronics project at TAFE. No solid results yet & the F&P has been abandoned for the near future. A summary of attempts made 1) Discrete home-brew picaxe controlled circuit - No success as yet (Mosfet driving problem, possible to rectify, however sequence was originally going to be "bit-banged" with no sensor code as yet) 2) Off-the-shelf R/C hobby controller (Venom Aircorps Brushless 36A) - Success, limited RPM & torque, Voltage range unsuitable for the desired power supply. 3) Dedicated 3-phase microcontroller w/ sensor inputs (Motorola MC33035 & MC33039) - Very low torque & speed, accepts higher supply voltage, wouldn't self start. 4) Off-the-shelf High Voltage (43v) R/C hobby controller (Dualsky XC9036HV) - Increase in torque & RPM, sensorless, will self start, but not under high initial torque. They were the numerous (& costly) attempts that myself & a fellow student have performed. As you can see, we did have some success with R/C brushless controllers, however the lack of sensor inputs causes startup & stall issues, YMMV. Ben |
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| GWatPE Senior Member Joined: 01/09/2006 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2127 |
Hi Ben, These are similar results to mine. My classification of success is that the components perform at their rating. I to, did get the F&P to rotate, but with low torque and power. Hence my comments above. I believe the problem is with the inductance and the amount of iron in a F&P. Most model aeroplane motors spin at 1000's of rpm/volt. Very much a mismatch all ways. cheers, Gordon. become more energy aware |
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cobia Newbie Joined: 24/06/2008 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2 |
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| cobia Newbie Joined: 24/06/2008 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2 |
Hi: jimovonz I am hoping you could help me; I want to use the smart drive as a 12v motor Would you have any other wiring diagram or schematic? To Start and run on {1 phase only} from a 12v battery supply I appreciate any help you could give Thanks |
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Haxby Guru Joined: 07/07/2008 Location: AustraliaPosts: 418 |
I wired up a F&P motor through 6 mosfets and using the three stock hall effect sensors I was able to get good low end control. I used only the three phase wires, no neutral, and the motor is unmodified. I ran it at 12V, but it should work up to 250V with very high torque. Here is a video. video I've connected another F&P motor back to back so that I can run some RPM tests. One will be generating the other will be driving under software control. |
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oztules Guru Joined: 26/07/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1686 |
Nice work Haxby. Far more complex than my halfwave tests by a mile. ( I was driving a dual axial flux alternator... but my parts count was about 15 including the fets, halls and resistors. I had no speed control other than the input current (variable dc supply). Did you do a circuit of your drivers, or did you just use the original fets and snubbers. .........oztules Village idiot...or... just another hack out of his depth |
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| Haxby Guru Joined: 07/07/2008 Location: AustraliaPosts: 418 |
I used the original N channel fets for the negative rail and I swapped over the positive rail fets to P channels. (stock Fets on the high side are N channel with high side drivers to suit) By using the original F&P control board, I could use the snubbers etc unmodified. I used separate Mosfet driver chips (as seen on the breadboard in the video) as tracing back the F&P driver circuitry gets complicated. I was able to remove some SMD resistors from each gate so that I was not feeding current back to the rest of the board. Next step is to try 48V and see if the picaxe can keep up at higher speeds. Might have to get a 20Mhz crystal or wait till the X2 chips come out to get 500RPM out of it tho. I'm very happy with the low speed torque. Great motors these are. |
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| oztules Guru Joined: 26/07/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1686 |
Be a devil and drive it analogue. I intend to use these (which I bought months and months ago off ebay.. couple of dollars each. data from: http://www.datasheet4u.com/ data sheet here "MC33033 Brushless DC Motor Controller The MC33033 is a high performance second generation, limited feature, monolithic brushless dc motor controller which has evolved from Motorola′s full featured MC33034 and MC33035 controllers. It contains all of the active functions required for the implementation of open loop, three or four phase motor control. The device consists of a rotor position decoder for proper commutation sequencing, temperature compensated reference capable of supplying sensor power, frequency programmable sawtooth oscillator, fully accessible error amplifier, pulse width modulator comparator, three open collector top drivers, and three high current totem pole bottom drivers ideally suited for driving power MOSFETs." I'm hoping these little critters will do the job. When I finally get around to it that is..... The only thing stopping them working ... is me
..........oztules Village idiot...or... just another hack out of his depth |
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