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Forum Index : Microcontroller and PC projects : Quick MX Linux vs W11 setup....(bit of a rant)
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Grogster Admin Group  Joined: 31/12/2012 Location: New ZealandPosts: 9493 |
This is just a quick thread - and a bit of a rant, so..... MX Linux: Install from Live USB, full updates and ready to use - 10 mins. Windoze11Pro x64: Install from USB, full updates and ready to use - roughly 2 hours. WHAT.....the hell....is W11 actually DOING in the background? MX Linux found all the drivers, setup the whole system and was on-line in ten minutes. W11 CLEAN INSTALL from a download I did THIS MONTH from MS, spent almost two hours installing stuff in the background, and ran the CPU at 100% during all that time. Once it FINALLY settled down, CPU idle is about 10% Idle with MX Linux is 0% - yes - too small to actually measure. As it should be, at idle, on modern hardware. And with the W11 box, it keeps spiking to 75% or more for ages, when idle - even AFTER the two hours of background whatever the hell was going on. WTF?!?!! TEST SYSTEM: MSI CUBi, Intel i3(12th gen 1215U) @ 1.2GHz(six physical cores, two logical cores), 16GB ADATA RAM, 1TB ADATA LEGEND 1TB NVMe SSD I have two of the ADATA SSD's of the exact same model etc, so I could do a comparison between installing MX Linux and W11 on the same hardware. W11 seems to have settled down now, but it took two freakin' hours at pretty much 100% CPU - and this was AFTER I had installed all the W11 drivers, so....what the hell was W11 ACTUALLY doing during all of that....  We may never know... I'll put the MX Linux SSD back in tomorrow. Smoke makes things work. When the smoke gets out, it stops! |
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hitsware2 Guru  Joined: 03/08/2019 Location: United StatesPosts: 718 |
Filling all memory .... With whatever ( coming updates et. al. ) In order to obsolete , then sell another p.c. , module , ....... my site |
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Mixtel90 Guru Joined: 05/10/2019 Location: United KingdomPosts: 7523 |
Probably running all the routines needed to make the install compatible with MSDOS, Windows 3.1 (making sure the updates are in place), Windows 5 (whatever that might have been). Then calculating Bill Gates net worth to date. Then deleting all that lot file by file and installing from scratch again for Windows 11.... Mick Zilog Inside! nascom.info for Nascom & Gemini Preliminary MMBasic docs & my PCB designs |
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| al18 Senior Member  Joined: 06/07/2019 Location: United StatesPosts: 225 |
The W11 install from USB is NOT a full install. It’s installs enough of W11 to get you up and running. The rest of the W11 install is done online, and takes a few hours. |
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| Grogster Admin Group Joined: 31/12/2012 Location: New ZealandPosts: 9493 |
WOW! REALLY!!!!?????    The USB installer is a little over 5GB. That should be plenty, even for a Windoze install I would have thought!  Now that you mention THAT, the extra time does now make sense, but still......wow. I never checked the final size of the Windoze folder - I will have to do that, but I would have thought that the USB - especially if it was MS's latest offering of that on their website - would HAVE all the updates etc, and be as much a fully up to date system as you can get. I thought that would save time!  Smoke makes things work. When the smoke gets out, it stops! |
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| Grogster Admin Group Joined: 31/12/2012 Location: New ZealandPosts: 9493 |
Oh, and thanks chums, for the sarcastic replies also - they made me giggle.  Smoke makes things work. When the smoke gets out, it stops! |
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| Grogster Admin Group Joined: 31/12/2012 Location: New ZealandPosts: 9493 |
Just checked on the size of the install - 30GB in the Windoze folder! O...M....G..... So, yeah.... downloaded an additional 25GB of extra stuff from MS. That really is amazing, in a disturbing kind of way. Even if I allow 1GB for the drivers I downloaded myself(the graphics one was about 700MB), that's still 24GB or so of extra stuff from MS - I have not installed ANYTHING on the W11 test setup yet, so other then the drivers..... Edited 2025-05-11 16:31 by Grogster Smoke makes things work. When the smoke gets out, it stops! |
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| Mixtel90 Guru Joined: 05/10/2019 Location: United KingdomPosts: 7523 |
Makes you yearn for CP/M, doesn't it? :) Mind you, if you have to support a word processor where a file consisting of a single full stop needs over 10K you need a heavy duty OS. :) Mick Zilog Inside! nascom.info for Nascom & Gemini Preliminary MMBasic docs & my PCB designs |
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| lizby Guru Joined: 17/05/2016 Location: United StatesPosts: 3319 |
Not in the least, and I was a heavy user of it, and even replicated it on the 68000. I don't really see why I should care that the Windows folder is 28.2 gigabytes and has 133,570 files, or that the Program Files folder is 10GB and the Program Files (x86) is 4GB. When a 1TB SSD is $50, what does it matter? PicoMite, Armmite F4, SensorKits, MMBasic Hardware, Games, etc. on fruitoftheshed |
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| Mixtel90 Guru Joined: 05/10/2019 Location: United KingdomPosts: 7523 |
From this I deduce that on your system C:/ has a greater capacity than 57.7GB, of which 50.3GB is currently used. :) This machine has a non-expandable C:/ on soldered-in NAND flash. I can only dream of a 1TB SSD. :) Mind you, it doesn't need a fan. The monitor takes more power than the PC. . Edited 2025-05-12 00:28 by Mixtel90 Mick Zilog Inside! nascom.info for Nascom & Gemini Preliminary MMBasic docs & my PCB designs |
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| lizby Guru Joined: 17/05/2016 Location: United StatesPosts: 3319 |
That's a correct deduction--it's a refurbished Dell Latitude Laptop 7480 14" i7-6600U 32GB Ram 1TB SSD Win 11 bought 3 months ago for $301USD. I'm quite happy with it, and if nothing breaks, I'm hoping it will last me 4-5 years. That's quite a bargain compared to what I paid for compute for the first 45+ years of owning a PC. PicoMite, Armmite F4, SensorKits, MMBasic Hardware, Games, etc. on fruitoftheshed |
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| hitsware2 Guru Joined: 03/08/2019 Location: United StatesPosts: 718 |
A matter of 'elegance' ? , or even , 'ecology' ? Obviously depends on mindset ...... my site |
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| lizby Guru Joined: 17/05/2016 Location: United StatesPosts: 3319 |
A desire for elegance would have had one of a certain mindset frustrated at MMBasic's earlier requirement to use a word instead of a bit for a flag (before Peter's recent update to enable 1-bit flags). I myself had that mindset--from Z80 days, but it also applied to the memory-constrained PICAXE--but in fact in MMBasic it was a waste of time (programmer and running time) to take the trouble to use bits instead of words as flags except in extreme cases where memory was very tight. I also remember a time when compute was very expensive, and programmer time was cheap. That hasn't been the case for a very long time. Elegance to me now means using the tool to get the job done most efficiently. For me that means using interpreted Basic (MMBasic or Annex) instead of the more esteemed C++. PicoMite, Armmite F4, SensorKits, MMBasic Hardware, Games, etc. on fruitoftheshed |
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| robert.rozee Guru Joined: 31/12/2012 Location: New ZealandPosts: 2401 |
compute is incredibly resource expensive, far more so than it has ever been in the short history of humankind. we are desperately mining rare earth elements to make the storage cells that power compute, even considering building extra nuclear reactors for the energy consumed by compute. in first-world countries most of the population carry with them compute devices that cost a thousand dollars or more and require replacing every 2-3 years. we are desperately denuding both society and the planet to enable the creation of more compute. and with every cycle of compute replacement we are dumping more toxic byproduct chemicals into the finite environment in which we live. and all the while we blind ourselves to the central axiom: the only problem that can not be solved by the creation of more compute, is the problem of starvation. cheers, rob :-) |
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| Grogster Admin Group Joined: 31/12/2012 Location: New ZealandPosts: 9493 |
You have a point. But also, at the same time, bloat for the sake of bloat, just cos space is cheap.....to me, is false logic. There is no REASON that I can see, that Windoze 11 NEEDS to be a 30GB install, when a modern Linux is a FRACTION of that - AND still supports all the modern security concepts and protocols. MS's philosophy seems to be: "Who cares how big Windows becomes - space is plentiful and SSD's are cheap." That's not really the point. In a purely MS world, by 2050, a standard Windoze install will be about 1TB, cos 5TB or more SSD's will be $50, so who cares.... I hope you see MY point. MHOO. Smoke makes things work. When the smoke gets out, it stops! |
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| Volhout Guru Joined: 05/03/2018 Location: NetherlandsPosts: 4860 |
+1 Volhout PicomiteVGA PETSCII ROBOTS |
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Bryan1 Guru Joined: 22/02/2006 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1396 |
Well some things never change as MS has always been bloatware and in the good ol' days one had a OS disc so a yearly reinstall could wipe all that extra bloatware out. Now the thing is the MS bloatware says it needs modern hardware just to work where Linux will just plain work on just about ANY hardware. |
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| Mixtel90 Guru Joined: 05/10/2019 Location: United KingdomPosts: 7523 |
Computers are like flat surfaces. Increase the size and more junk will be piled onto them. As you say, Grogster, there is no need for bloat software. It happens because it's cheaper to produce bloat than to program efficiently. I find it interesting that most linux users start out using a distro with all the flashy stuff enabled, to make it look as if they are out-windowing Windows. As they progress they tend to turn off the flashy stuff, realizing that it's all just eye candy and actually gets in the way. Many end up with very minimalist systems, with lots of stuff taken out simply because they never use it. Windows doesn't give the user the same granularity, even if you go for absolute minimal options. Do you know that Windows 11 still includes moricons.dll from Windows 3.1? This is a (admittedly small) file used to store icons for many long-gone programs. Linky [RAMBLE] I run a tiny, low-powered PC because it's far cheaper to do so than to use a much more capable one. It took less resources to build, it's taking less resources to run and, when it finally dies, it's easy to strip down to recycle the aluminium case (steel and plastic cases don't recycle well). The fact that it isn't a great idea to install bloatware like MPLAB or the Arduino IDE isn't a problem - just don't use them. Neither of those deserves the proportion of disk space and CPU required relative to their tasks. And the joy of working on a completely silent PC is really something that has to be experienced to be appreciated. :) For more storage I usually use 3TB of NAS space (3TB+3TB mirrored) and a 3TB USB HDD. The NAS powers off overnight and (like the monitor) goes into standby if unused for a while. The monitor, PC(s) and USB drive are on a IR-controlled socket strip (with a few other bits) and are all powered off (not in standby) overnight. There isn't a need for a CPU that needs continuous fan cooling if most of what you do can be done in a browser. If you have tasks that do need higher power then use a second or even third machine for them, only running it/them when needed. It's far more efficient and your electricity bill will drop. This is important when you live in a country where the energy prices are some of the highest in the world. [/RAMBLE] Mick Zilog Inside! nascom.info for Nascom & Gemini Preliminary MMBasic docs & my PCB designs |
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| lizby Guru Joined: 17/05/2016 Location: United StatesPosts: 3319 |
Well, yes and no. Since all the compute of humankind prior to the 20th century was done by humans who are all dead, their net present value is zero (though not the net present value of their work). It's also worthwhile to see what this compute has enabled--the world's knowledge in our pocket (if we use it to advantage)--all the way down to Indian fishermen being able to find the best price for their fish before they dock. On a personal level, purchasing a capable used laptop seems to me a way to have a lot of power (in terms of my own history) at little additional cost to the environment. That's not at all clear. The problem of starvation has been greatly reduced in the last 45 years (as a percentage of the world's population under threat)--over 40% living on less that $1 a day in 1981 (equalized dollars) to 14% in 2008 (and less now): Poverty_reduction. Compute has played a part in that (though a relatively small part), and is likely to play a much greater part going forward. In the absence of degrowth, a world with less compute is going to be a world with less ability to wean itself from fossil fuels. Our heat pumps, our EVs, our transmissions systems, our wind farms, our solar farms are all dependent on the fine control which modern compute provides. (Of course, there remains the threat that runaway AI will turn us and all we hold dear into "grey goo".) PicoMite, Armmite F4, SensorKits, MMBasic Hardware, Games, etc. on fruitoftheshed |
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| hitsware2 Guru Joined: 03/08/2019 Location: United StatesPosts: 718 |
Starvation ( or pandemic ( to the point of die back ) ) is the answer .... Biologic man is on the ( or soon to be ) decline ... ...BUT Electro Life beyond still will need physical constraint ... my site |
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