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Forum Index : Windmills : F&P 42 Pole output connections
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Lyndon Newbie  Joined: 24/02/2010 Location: AustraliaPosts: 7 |
Hello to all, I am new to the concept of creating power in the shed and have opted to build a wind turbine. I have rewired two F&P stators to test - one is a 42 Pole 2X7C and the other is a 42 pole 7x2c. I don't understand from the diagrams posted on the Home grown website for these stator where to conect up the output wires - I refer to x-y-z on the image where do they wire up to. Regards Lyndon Lyndon |
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Gizmo Admin Group  Joined: 05/06/2004 Location: AustraliaPosts: 5124 |
Hi Lyndon I did get your message, just havn't had a chance to reply to it yet. If you want to use the windmill to supply AC power to your shed, its not as easy as I think you think it is. See the AC from a wind turbine is what we call "wild AC", so we need to tame it down by converting it into DC, using a rectifier, and then we use this DC to charge a battery bank. We then use an inverter to convert the DC from out battery bank into regulated ( not so wild ) AC power that we can use. Glenn The best time to plant a tree was twenty years ago, the second best time is right now. JAQ |
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Greenbelt Guru  Joined: 11/01/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 566 |
Lyndon, You have not given a location of the drawing in question? If this is only the final output leads , Its Decision Time. If you plan on using capacitors to enhance the cut in speed you will have to review the posts on this forum from last year.there is info here that will improve performance by 25%+, The basic hook up is to connect output wires to a diode bridge, This converts the AC power to DC power which is required to charge Batteries or connect to the grid Inverter. You should have enough batteries connected in series to be near the stator output voltage. The output from the Diode bridges is DC and will connect to the Battery Terminals. See the post in WINDMILLS ---FAILED EXPERIMENT for more info. Good luck with this, more help on the Way Time has proven that I am blind to the Obvious, some of the above may be True? |
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| Lyndon Newbie Joined: 24/02/2010 Location: AustraliaPosts: 7 |
Hello GIZMO and Greenbelt, Thank you for such a quick reply,I will try and be more detailed as to what I was trying to do - trying being the operative word. The two stators I have rewired are diplayed at http://www.thebackshed.com/windmill/images/42pole2x7C.gif and http://www.thebackshed.com/windmill/images/42pole7x2C.gif The reason I was looking at using purely ac voltage from the stator is because I have a really beaut battery charger that charges SEALED/LEAD ACID batteries ranging from 6v/12v/24v it's called a smart charger and will operate by simply plugging into 240V ac (Australian)but also will start charging if the input voltage is between 210-250 ac. Using the 42 pole 7x2c wiring diagram from the Backshed I took one output from the "Z" terminal on the stator diagram and one output from any one of the solder joints where you twist the three wires together(one from a yellow coil - 1 from a blue - 1 from a white. I assumed that this was the same as one active and one neutral. Due to restrictions on height where I live my device is mounted 15 feet off the ground by my shed - the good news is that the area we live in is often reffered to as Windy Hill - using a multimeter I get a steady 10-11v ac all the time - if it gets a major gust it may go as high as 18v. I have taken the wiring down to a transformer that steps up the low ac to around 160ac and then into my charger - when the big gust come the voltage increase and the charger kicks in delivering a 10amp (according to the guage)charge to the battery - once the wind speed drops down then the charger shuts off. I figured that I could use the 42 pole 2x7c wiring to acheive a higher output from stator. Bottom line for me is I have invested a fair bit money on this special charger and also an inverter to run my appliances from the charged battery(This works well)it's all about how to run the charger - you thought and comments are extremely appreciated. Lyndon Lyndon |
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KarlJ Guru Joined: 19/05/2008 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1178 |
Lyndon, this sont give you any meaningful output. You would need to parallell all the outputs for the star points also. you would then effectively have three single phases and one star point shared that was connected to all of the 7 star points. Obviously you would only end up with 1/3 of its max output as you can only use 1 phase for your charger. The 2X7C will have approx 4 times (a little less)the voltage potential of the 7x2C. If it were me I'd rectify the 7X2C to DCV and then charge the batts directly with that. Build the little dump controller on the site to prevent overcharge good luck Luck favours the well prepared |
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Downwind Guru Joined: 09/09/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2333 |
I also think you are doing this the hard way just because you want to use some trick charger. In doing so, only getting 1/3 the power to the batteries that you could have. Every stage of conversion (transformer, charger) you loose as there is always an efficenty loss. You will be light years infront by rectifing the wild ac on all 3 phases and feeding that to the batteries with a simple dump controller to prevent over charging. Use the trick charger to top the batteries up when there is no wind. Pete. Sometimes it just works |
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| Lyndon Newbie Joined: 24/02/2010 Location: AustraliaPosts: 7 |
Hello to all who have responded to my post - you have convinced me especially after some tinkering last night I discovered as you have stated that I am only using 1/3 of the the stators potential with the way I was trying to use just the AC voltage from one phase - I eperimented trying to join phases and quickly realised all this was doing was basically putting a handbrake on the stator - it shuddered a lot and eventually stopped. again being the novice my messing around with this I think and correct me if I am wrong that the whole idea must be to join the outputs of the three phases using some form of rectifier eg if one phase is giving me around 10v ac by using diodes and joining phases I should end up with three times the whatever the ac outpu is but as a DC current - if this is correct is there any information (prefferably in laymens terms) as to how to do this. Again I would would like to thank you for your feedback and assistance - This forum and those people who have responded are most appreciated as I would have gotten to the point of giving up on the whole concept. I have to attend a workshop for my employer and will not be able to acess the web for another 24 hours. Thanks heaps. Lyndon Lyndon |
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| KarlJ Guru Joined: 19/05/2008 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1178 |
Go to Jaycar, buy 35A bridge rectifier x 3. One terminal is marked with +, diagonally opposite is -. mount them on a piece of aluminium, (if you want it to be trick you can get one about the right size at Jaycar too. run each phase to its own rectifier and connect the wire to BOTH remaining terminals cost no heatsink $15. with heatsink $30. some wire etc $5. My suggestion is to solder the connections as its cheaper and more robust Luck favours the well prepared |
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| Lyndon Newbie Joined: 24/02/2010 Location: AustraliaPosts: 7 |
Hello KarlJ, I need to understand this a little better so let's see if i've got this right. Using the 42 ploe 7x2c wiring option as outlined earlier I have a stator that has three output terminals - these are marked on the diagram as X-Y-Z I am assuming each is a phase. I think that if I had bridge rectifier the two terminals on the rectifier marked -/+ are for the DC output side - this leaves two other terminals for the ac from the stator - do I connect one of the x-y-z output terminals to this? if so what connects to the other side of the rectifier - is it (looking at the 2x7c diagram) one of the other x-y-z termials or one of the 7 groups of twisted connects around the stator. Thanks for the help. Lyndon Lyndon |
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| Gizmo Admin Group Joined: 05/06/2004 Location: AustraliaPosts: 5124 |
Hi Lyndon Please dont take this to hard, but your level of electrical knowledge is extremely dangerous. Thats OK, we all start somewhere. What is scary is the fact your learning with something that could kill you in an instant. First up, the F&P has the capability to electrocute you, dead. Only knowledge can make this sort of thing safe. The way your headed, your going to have a nasty accident. OK, thats out of the way. The F&P makes 3 phase wild AC power. That is, 3 AC outputs, each one at a different phase to the others, and at widely changing voltages depending on wind conditions. There is no way you can connect this to your battery charger, or any other domestic AC appliance, it will burn it out in a flash. You need to send this 3 phase wild AC into a 3 phase bridge rectifier. The 3 phase bridge rectifier will give you wild DC, which can be tamed with a battery. You then use a Inverter to give you your AC power. There are no shortcuts here, its the only way to do what you want. Knowing what leads to connect to what pins is not enough, you need to understand how it works. So before you do anything, either find a electrician friend to guide you, and/or read this web site.... http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_1/index.html Glenn The best time to plant a tree was twenty years ago, the second best time is right now. JAQ |
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| Downwind Guru Joined: 09/09/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2333 |
Please take note of Gizmos comments and use extreme caution. To answer your question on rectifiers. The easy way to do this is 1 bridge rectifier for each phase (X,Y,Z) (3 bridges in total) Connect a phase wire to both of the ac terminals on 1 rectifier. Than do the same for the other 2 phase wires for the other 2 rectifiers. Now you have a rectifier hanging off the end of each phase wire. Join the positive terminals together for all 3 rectifiers and do the same for the negitives of all 3 rectifiers. This will give you a single positive and a single negitive wire to go to your batteries. The voltage at the batteries will rise as they charge and you will need some form of controller to prevent overcharging by the voltage going above the max voltage for the batteries. It would sound to me the stators are wired for Star and not delta. The point you refere to with the 7 twisted wires is the star point, This is not used with the rectifiers and only the 3 phase wire are used (x,y,z) Star is just a common junction between all coils. Be careful as wind power is no good to a dead man. 
Pete. Sometimes it just works |
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| Gizmo Admin Group Joined: 05/06/2004 Location: AustraliaPosts: 5124 |
Here's a link to using 3 bridge rectifiers to get DC from the 3 phases. Bottom of the page. http://www.thebackshed.com/Windmill/articles/AlternatorRect. asp The best time to plant a tree was twenty years ago, the second best time is right now. JAQ |
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| Lyndon Newbie Joined: 24/02/2010 Location: AustraliaPosts: 7 |
Thankyou to all that have responded to me - I agree 100% that my electrical knowledge is probably limited to "Change a light globe only" - I have seriously taken on board the warning - read some docs last night regarding phased power and it's conversion and also the risks with working with electricity - stupid me thought that the higher the voltage the more likely a shock could cause major injury until I started to read about a thing called amperage... I will at all time take extreme care and have now sourced a nephew who works with this sort of thing in the auto electrical trade - rewiring alternators and generators is his thing and he will assist me where possible - he is not as accesible as you people are. I beleive based on you input that I now know how to wire this stator succesfully to acheive a DC output and I will commence work on this on the weekend. If you all don't mind I would like to keep you posted with my acheivements or lack of and continue to use this forum for asking questions and seeking assistance if you don't mind. If your are happy to accept I would like to share some digital photos of how I have progressed so far (not sure where to send them though). Look forward to your responses. Kindest regards Lyndon Lyndon |
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| Downwind Guru Joined: 09/09/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2333 |
To be kept updated would be great and to ask questions is why we are all involved here. Look at the bright side, by being involved here yourself might have just saved your life. Photos would be nice and to post a photo use the button second from the right with the green arrow on top of the reply window. If you have large size photo files you might want to shrink them first. I do this in "Paint" open the image in paint then click "Image" .... "Resize"... I use about 50% to both horizontal and vertical ...Then OK....Save AS.. the image... I just add "small" to the previous file name...Click OK. Now post the photo. I find it much quicker to upload this way. The forum will resize most photos but it is slow at doing it. Pete. Sometimes it just works |
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| Greenbelt Guru Joined: 11/01/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 566 |
Lyndon; When you upload an image it will need to be in JPEG Photo format. MS.Paint, as pointed out by "DOWNWIND". is a good program for shrink and stretch. so when you use it, click, save as, and when the window opens enter your picture name, and the second linebox down, open this drop down menu and choose JPEG. it will be saved in this format. It defaults as bitmap if you forget and will not be accepted by the server when you try to upload. Welcome aboard. 
Time has proven that I am blind to the Obvious, some of the above may be True? |
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| Downwind Guru Joined: 09/09/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2333 |
I tend to find most photos are in jpeg format to start with and paint defaults to the original format unless changed. Still good advice should you get a quirk in your system that i am unaware of as normal. (computers we love to hate them....I hate to say it but they remind me of something else that has a mind of its own that makes no logic at times  )
Pete. Sometimes it just works |
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GWatPE Senior Member  Joined: 01/09/2006 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2127 |
Hi Pete, would that be the family cat?? Gordon. become more energy aware |
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| Downwind Guru Joined: 09/09/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2333 |
Close Gordon, but wrong puss. Pete. Sometimes it just works |
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| Lyndon Newbie Joined: 24/02/2010 Location: AustraliaPosts: 7 |
Hello to all, apologies for the lack of comms lately but I have had some pressing work to complete. I have succesfully wired the F&P stator and have taken your advice with regards to understanding phases. To this end I have now purchased 4 x 35 amp bridge rectifiers and have completed the wiring to give me an output voltage as a dc current - depending on wind conditions this varies from 0v dc to 48v dc when running flat out. What I am looking for now is a device I beleive is called a charge controller so I can hook it up to my batteries - does anyone know where I can purchase a simple version of this without having to pay around $400.00?. Alternatively does some one have one they would like to sell. This weekend will be my opportunity to get some photos as stated earlier. Regards Lyndon Lyndon |
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| Downwind Guru Joined: 09/09/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2333 |
Gizmo's opamp controller on the front page is a simple one if you are able to build your own. But is saying that there pages and pages of discussions here where others have made mistakes in constructing it. Its a simple circuit that works well. What voltage is your battery. As i see you are not far away at sellicks and if you are unable to construct it i could do it for you. You will still need to sort out some form of a dump load though. Pete. Sometimes it just works |
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