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Forum Index : Off topic archive. : Hydrogen Fuel Cells
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Chris Senior Member  Joined: 12/09/2005 Location: AustraliaPosts: 146 |
Gday guys... I stumbled across these interesting pages... 1) http://h2gen.info/ 2) http://www.spiritofmaat.com/archive/feb2/carplans_doc.htm 3) http://www.spiritofmaat.com/archive/watercar/h20car2.htm The 1st one is demonstrating a homemade fuel cell using water, sodium and aluminium cans. Pretty intesting. The 2nd one is actaully plans on making your own fuel cell for a car... They arnt complete though, missing some images etc... But they do include full control circuitry for your hydrogen fuel cell And the 3rd one is just some research, the 3rd one has a actaul generator running off 13 Hydrogen fuel cells... To tell you the truth, i was expecting it to be alot harder to make a fuel cell. I thought there was some magical extremely complex method involved... But there isnt. Its amazing, the 1st link has about 11 videos i think of a chemical hydrogen fuel cell operating. Im tempted to try and make my own hydrogen fuel cell generator. But it involves a bit of engine work. Apparently you need to ceramic coat your cyclinder and combustion chamber... Would probably be easier to get them galvonised, but that wouldnt last as long i think? Stainless engine components are the way to go, but how many stainless steel engines do you see out there...  Oh well, just thought id share with you guys... Cheers, Chris |
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| MrBungle Newbie  Joined: 07/10/2005 Location: AustraliaPosts: 34 |
Thanks for the links Chris. A few years ago, Jaycar introduced a hydrogen fuel cell kit (page 37 of 2005 catalogue), but it was a bit pricey($300!!) so I decided to try the net, didn't find much and lost interest. I might have another look, thanks again. BTW, ceramic coatings are almost normal these days, there's bound to be someone near you that does it. Look for HPC coatings. It's pretty common with the guys that hot up their Nissans/Toyota's etc for huge horsepower. You'd be hard pushed to find a race/drag car these days without a special coating of some sort. Some even get their exhaust system coated! A couple of years ago I worked for Cypher Industries(they hot up Nissans/Toyota's for huge horsepower, lol) and on the wall in the showroom we had a set of stainless extractors with HPC coating, looked like they were made from aluminium!!, certainly confused a few customers. Simo |
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| Chris Senior Member Joined: 12/09/2005 Location: AustraliaPosts: 146 |
So if you got a piston and combustion chamber ceramic coated wouldnt that mean that all the tolerances would change? You would need a smaller piston wouldnt you? And how do you get rings ceramic coated 
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| MrBungle Newbie Joined: 07/10/2005 Location: AustraliaPosts: 34 |
Ah, I was looking for 'hydrogen fuel cells' that use hydrogen and oxygen to generate electricity for electric vehicles. The links you provided seem to be gas generators, but I have a small scale use for that too lol! (Film hypersensitising) The Jaycar kit I mentioned before is an electric generator. Anyway, I'm no mechanic, and all I know is what I've gleened from my hi-po mechanic mates and what I saw at Cypher. The only thing I've ever seen coated is the piston crown and the ring landings. The piston sleeve is left uncoated, but valve tulips are often coated and some of the stem. I've never seen the cylinder walls coated, but this doesn't mean it doesn't happen. I don't think coating thickness poses much of a problem in this case, because the piston crown/cylinder wall clearance is surprisingly large, and the crowns and ring landings(should-) never touch the cylinder walls, only the rings and piston sleeve should touch. Some engines are factory coated, using my dodgy memory, I think the Honda B-series (B16 - B20) engines and also the WRX's EJ20's have coated pistons. Maybe only the metals with the lowest melting point need coating? Like the aluminium pistons? Aluminium has a high thermal expansion, so maybe the clearance is taken into consideration, but then maybe the coating reduces the crown temperature enough that the reduced expansion is not a worry, dunno. HPC would be the people to ask, let them know what temperatures are expected in a hydrogen powered engine. Simo Links: Edit: forgot tags! http://www.hpcoatings.com.au/ [url]http://www.hpcoatings.com/[url] -- USA |
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| Chris Senior Member Joined: 12/09/2005 Location: AustraliaPosts: 146 |
The problem is that, with these fuel cells: Once the hydrogen is burned it then recombines with water to make steam, so you really need it all coated to prevent rust... How do the hydrogen and oxygen fuel cells work to create electricity? |
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| MrBungle Newbie Joined: 07/10/2005 Location: AustraliaPosts: 34 |
Aha, yes that could be a problem! lol. I'm not sure what metals they use or the exact process, but bottled hydrogen is fed to a reactor, which combines two hydrogens with an oxygen to make water and electricity. It's basicaly the reverse of splitting water into hydrogen and oxygen by electrolysis. Maybe one day it will replace lead-acid's for storage? I really want to play with the Jaycar one, but it's so expensive!. Click Here to see Jaycar's page. or Here for manufacturer's page, quite interesting. If you click 'Tips & technical support' theres some good info and even a short-form manual in PDF format. Edit: WOW, theres a lot more info around now than there was last time I looked. Did a search for 'PEM fuel cell basics' and found a great site: http://www.fuelcells.org/basics/types.html |
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| Chris Senior Member Joined: 12/09/2005 Location: AustraliaPosts: 146 |
Ahh yes, the PEM fuel cells. I was reading up on them. They cost quite a bit to make, and its a pretty delicate process. Something im not that good at. I had a full pdf on how to make one. But the materials where like 300 dollars plus for just some pieces of plastic. Ill see if i can dig it up. |
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| MrBungle Newbie Joined: 07/10/2005 Location: AustraliaPosts: 34 |
Yep, I think I found the same article. Issue #35 of 'Home Power' magazine? It's a 12 year old article, but still an interesting read. The prices cheaper and I believe there are some better materials available now, also more competing manufacturers of the same materials, but yeah, still not my kinda cheap. A 500W pre-built cell is around 4000 euro!! yeouch. Guess I'm just gonna havta wait. |
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| Chris Senior Member Joined: 12/09/2005 Location: AustraliaPosts: 146 |
I think i might build a hydrogen fuel cell. I found some really good plans that have a full control circuit too. |
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| adam666 Newbie Joined: 01/02/2006 Location: New ZealandPosts: 14 |
If you lookin for information pertaining to electrolysers, check out my hydrogen section here: (halfway down page) http://www.oupower.com/index.php?dir=_Other_Peoples_Projects /adam666&DrillDown=yes also the discussion boards of this forum have an extensive list of methods for production of h2 http://www.oupower.com cheers Adam "to capitalize on windy wgtn" -excuse the pun :p |
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| Chris Senior Member Joined: 12/09/2005 Location: AustraliaPosts: 146 |
Interesting site adam, Can you fix the electroliser pages? I really wanted to keep reading but i keep getting mysql errors... |
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MacGyver Guru  Joined: 12/05/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 1329 |
Before you get too much into reinventing the wheel, check out this forum chat on hydrogen (Brown's Gas): http://www.thebackshed.com/windmill/forum1/forum_posts.asp? TID=894&PN=1&TPN=5 Nothing difficult is ever easy! Perhaps better stated in the words of Morgan Freeman, "Where there is no struggle, there is no progress!" Copeville, Texas |
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| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi All Having played with water and browns gass over the last few years I have found that in a normal IC motor there isnt a problem as an enhancement fuel as the engine opperating temp and combustion tem is high enough to keep the motor dry the only problem I had was using polluted water as the combustion turns pollution chemicals into nasty compounds clorine in town water is a real problem for corrosion perhaps someone on the forum with a chemical engineering background may be able to help there. Interesting experiment: Power supply prefferably adjustable 100 volt dc max and a probe with two stainless steel prongs [be carefull because 100 v dc is deadly] mount the prongs on an insulator, a piece of lexan or perspex works well crank up the volts on the supply and watch what precipitates out of the water and to think we are drinking that rubbish. All the best Bob Foolin Around |
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| KarlJ Guru Joined: 19/05/2008 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1178 |
I watched same thing on a youtube vid, great for removing unseen iron particles in the water and turning them into rusty water, which could then be filtered out. I'm very wary of something that claims to be so great, only use I see for brown gas is on a diesel to get the stuff to burn properly and for that you dont need more than 0.5% of brown gas to the incoming air mix (still lots though) Luck favours the well prepared |
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Downwind Guru Joined: 09/09/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2333 |
I know of a trucking company running HHO on B-doubles. The owners comment was it make the difference between working for a living, or working for a profit. He claimed a 15-20% reduction in fuel consumption over highway trips. The 5% difference was different drivers more so, as the trip and payload weight was the same. All drivers said the emmitions smelt different and the black soot that would settle on the tarps and load was gone. (less cleaning - they were happy) For 1000 liters of fuel trip consumption a 15-20% saving is good money in the pocket. HHO tends to work better on large heavy disels and the return on smaller motors is not worth the effort. As for running a motor purely on HHO you are kidding yourself if you think this is viable. For starters :- HHO implodes. Not what we need for an internal combustion engine. Used as a burn accelarator for diesel fuel it can be practical with a efficent designed cell, and not a couple of plates in a coffee jar with water and salt. Too many scams out there and are trying to make a quick buck from it. In most cases cleaning you air cleaner and a regular service and tune will save you more on fuel for the average vehicle than adding a HHO system. Pete. Sometimes it just works |
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| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi Karl I have used it with success up to 10% mixture after that it is much trouble to produce due to limitation of the electic systems. will finnish the resomant cell next year to try to improve production efficiency but so far have found it useful as a burn enhancer rather than a fuel in its own right. The contravercial burn implosion theory leaves a lot of quectins in my mind. All the best Bob Foolin Around |
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| MacGyver Guru Joined: 12/05/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 1329 |
Not intending to rain on anybody's parade, but . . . I've done this sort of stuff (hydrogen research) for years. Bottom line here is if it were all it's cracked up to be, everyone would be in on the action. Remember back about 15 years ago and all the hype around a fellow named Dennis Lee? He was hocking energy schemes like this and everyone was ready to plunk down their hard earned cash for his ideas (some did) but it finally came out that it was just a bunch of baloney. Same thing applies here, for the most part. Let me illustrate my point using a different example: I used to go out and look for gold as a hobby. I always found some and what I found, I kept in a little jar for show 'n tell. These days, with the price of gold up about a thousand percent, my friends all tell me, "You should get out there and find some more gold. You could get rich." My reply is simple: When there is a paved parking lot and individual parking spaces out at the gold fields, I'll wander back out there. It's all hype; nobody's getting rich (or making anywhere near a decent living for that matter) panning for gold. The same is true with the hydrogen and cars that "run on water". Hype. Wait until you can buy a little gizmo that clamps onto your car and works. Let someone else to all the R & D and spend all their money on it. If it were me, I'd wait for a proven product to hit the store shelves! This is just the voice of experience talking. I'm just an oaf (stands for old and fat) and what do I know? Still . . . it might be worth thinking about before you spend the rent money on something silly. Nothing difficult is ever easy! Perhaps better stated in the words of Morgan Freeman, "Where there is no struggle, there is no progress!" Copeville, Texas |
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| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi McGyver Its raining here< I speak from personal experience as I started down this road in 1980 when I ran 3 semies on a regular basis from Brisbane to Melbourne approx 200o KLM with an optimised HHO system it saved me 300 ltr of fuel each way 600 total and while distilate was 33 cents ltr then it was a significant saving I nearly made a profit even. It started out as a high pressure water injection system and led into a hydrogen cell capacity of 10 ltr min that was the limit of the excess power from the alternator 100 amp at 24 volt. I found at times it would do much better and didnt realise at the time it was going into a self resonamt state as its hard to drive and keep an eye on whats happening, the motor was 450 hp 12 ltr running 1.5 bar turbo pressure. As for smaller motors you are right as it runs into the law of diminishing returns but still gives a highway improvement of more than 15% around town its not measurable. The other thing I found was that the engines run cooler and made less oil pollution I was able to extend oil changes from 10000klm to 20000klm with better oil test at that, I believe 50000klm would be achievable. Thats a big saving in oil costs, when I pulled the engines down everything inside was as clean as a whistle not the usual grunge and black sludge usually found in high use diesel engines. As for your other point of let someone else do it well some of us like fooling around with things to improve or destroy. As for the comment that browns gas implodes not explodes I find this a moot point as when we run a motor on browns gass alone {with difficulty} it still exhausted out the tail pipe and that dosent sound like a partial vacume to me. If it was running as a vacume engine it would be hard pressed to produce enough power to keep itself running max vac + 14.7 psi in the sump isnt much against a combustion pressure of over 250 psi averaged over the power stroke. All the best Bob Foolin Around |
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| Downwind Guru Joined: 09/09/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2333 |
You know i am going to have to test this theroy of implosion or explosion. When time permits i will fill a plastic coke bottle with HHO and stick a spark plug in the cap and blow the sucker up or in, and see what happens. Might be a week or two before i get to do it but will let you know on the results. Pete. Sometimes it just works |
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| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi Pete Good idea to try it in something strong enough to do a real test I only used a baloon which disentegrated during the flash. All the best Bob Foolin Around |
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