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Boppa Guru Joined: 08/11/2016 Location: AustraliaPosts: 814
Posted: 02:19pm 16 Apr 2018
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I still dont like no line number basic programs and still write mine with line numbers, to me thats just easier to keep track of than numberless code
Thats just my personal preference tho
Grogster Admin Group Joined: 31/12/2012 Location: New ZealandPosts: 9610
Posted: 11:10pm 16 Apr 2018
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I can respect that.
Coming from the Atari days when all programs were also line-numbered, I know exactly what you mean.
Having said that, and now that I have moved to structed code with no line numbers, I would never go back. ....and I was one who never wanted to let go of my line numbers!
When you want to start doing more complicated tasks, you will find that line-numbers are very restrictive and make some tasks impossible if you need lots of nested loops etc, all within on routine.
To be honest with you, 'Invisible' line numbers are still a very useful debugging tool, and MMBASIC and MMEDIT both use them to keep track of actual line numbers. If your code falls over with an error, it always gives you a line number reference, and this is very useful when you take that number over to MMEDIT, and scroll to the line number on the left, to quickly find the line that the error happened on. In big code, this can save a lot of hunting time, so line numbers still have their uses! Smoke makes things work. When the smoke gets out, it stops!
Boppa Guru Joined: 08/11/2016 Location: AustraliaPosts: 814
Posted: 06:11am 17 Apr 2018
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Ive done both and especially when going into someone elses work, where it isnt particularly well thought out or labelled, I just find numbering easier (I actually like that MMEdit does add the line numbering) but then I grew up with line numberng also (Apple II, Vic20, Microbee (back when we actually built computers in Australia!) I wrote a program for the microbees back when I was still in school for the local video shop (they stocked both VHS and betamax!!) and it was still in use on 2 microbees up until the late 2000's when the shop finally closed, now its just a machine you stick a usb stick and your card into.. :-(
I thought that was pretty good going and I even got paid for it, it bought my first diskdrive! no more audio cassettes and 10/30 minute waiting to load! 5 1/4" cbm disk drive, 160kb of storage per disk.... kb, not mb....
but then that was huge as I only had 6k of ram, (but that was double what the vic started with, 3k of ram, had colour, sprites and 4 channel music, and if you had an eprom burner you could even make your own program carts
Luxuurryy.....
Azure Guru Joined: 09/11/2017 Location: AustraliaPosts: 446
Posted: 06:38am 17 Apr 2018
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@Boppa
I was working with Owen Hill doing some assembly (building S100 boards) and attending one of his microcontroller courses when the Microbee was being designed. I pointed him towards what we were doing with video games (my day job) for graphics to help with a problem he was trying to solve. We stayed in touch for several years after that.Edited by Azure 2018-04-18
Grogster Admin Group Joined: 31/12/2012 Location: New ZealandPosts: 9610
Posted: 06:44am 17 Apr 2018
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[Quote=Boppa]I thought that was pretty good going and I even got paid for it, it bought my first diskdrive! no more audio cassettes and 10/30 minute waiting to load! 5 1/4" cbm disk drive, 160kb of storage per disk.... kb, not mb....[/Quote]
I hear that.
Atari 810 format was 82K per disk, from what I remember - it's been a while. The 1050 drive could do 127K I think it was. Maybe 130K. The XF551 drive could do both of those, along with SSDD at 180K per side, or 360K in true double-sided format, where you did not flip the disk(remember 'Flippies'!), but the drive would still write to both sides of the disk.Edited by Grogster 2018-04-18Smoke makes things work. When the smoke gets out, it stops!
Boppa Guru Joined: 08/11/2016 Location: AustraliaPosts: 814
Posted: 06:54am 17 Apr 2018
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Flippies LOL, yeah the old apple II floppy was single sided, and as a highschooler, we were never big on the old folding... So to double your floppy storage, you got a second floppy, flipped it over and lay it on top of yours, then carefully cut out a second write protect notch on the other side... Bingo double the storage for an Apple II diskdrive....
Azure Guru Joined: 09/11/2017 Location: AustraliaPosts: 446
Posted: 06:57am 17 Apr 2018
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For the officionardoes the fipping caused data reliability problems as the disk was rotated within the sleeve in reverse dislodging debrie.
Grogster Admin Group Joined: 31/12/2012 Location: New ZealandPosts: 9610
Posted: 06:58am 17 Apr 2018
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I had one of these sexy tools!
Smoke makes things work. When the smoke gets out, it stops!
Grogster Admin Group Joined: 31/12/2012 Location: New ZealandPosts: 9610
Posted: 07:01am 17 Apr 2018
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Owwwwww, really?!
I never had that issue from what I remember.....but then maybe I did, and did not twig to it.
I even remember CUTTING the top edge of the disk, and removing the actual disk itself from the packet, and flipping it over and putting it back in when using the XF551 drive, which would not allow you to make flippies. I got a hardware hack from somewhere at the time, that DID allow me to make flippies with my XF551 drive.Smoke makes things work. When the smoke gets out, it stops!
Azure Guru Joined: 09/11/2017 Location: AustraliaPosts: 446
Posted: 07:05am 17 Apr 2018
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Technically yes. The sleeve would catch any debris/dust/dirt and reversing the direction dislodges it and grinds it back over the surface. But like I posted, only if you want to get picky. Most people would do the flippy.
I still have some hard sectored floppies from even earlier days. Would love to have a drive to see if there is any data still residing on them.
Boppa Guru Joined: 08/11/2016 Location: AustraliaPosts: 814
Posted: 07:06am 17 Apr 2018
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Cool... I nearly put together a S100 system at one stage, but when the microbe 16 came out, I shelved that idea and went the bee route I also put together a system80, an old dse kit that was a z80 based unit, it was a fun little beast as well, but at the time the 65xx family were more widespread and the software was more common As an aside, I had to fix a washing machine that had had a cockroach infection in the old outside laundry of a mates, and its controller used a..... zx80!!
Azure Guru Joined: 09/11/2017 Location: AustraliaPosts: 446
Posted: 07:08am 17 Apr 2018
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And then there is my collection of 8" floppies from when I started coding for work before they created those newfangled 5 1/4" things.
Boppa Guru Joined: 08/11/2016 Location: AustraliaPosts: 814
Posted: 07:10am 17 Apr 2018
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I still got a heap of old 5 1/4 and 3 1/2 floppies, even some old apple II ones, most are c64, vic20 and early ibm stuff (xt, tandy colour computer etc) all stored in a box
god knows why I keep them or even if they still work, some must be pushing 40 years old
I did have a box of 8" pet ones, but I lost those a few years back in a cyclone
eta
Windows 2.0, 1987, came on 8 floppies, mine is disk number 58 in the series.... Edited by Boppa 2018-04-18
CaptainBoing Guru Joined: 07/09/2016 Location: United KingdomPosts: 2170
Posted: 08:12am 17 Apr 2018
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whatever works for you - you are writing code, that's what's important!
I have found that with customers the thing of ultimate importance is to keep them in their comfort zone.
Some use IT but are definitely not OK with it... the sort that develops a routine they have to stick with... I replaced a PC a couple of years back... no PC today has a 3.5" floppy drive... I grabbed a USB one off ebay for $2 to keep the customer working with floppies coz that's what they knew and they didn't really "get" the concept of what they were doing, just went through the motions and it all worked for them. Comfort zone maintained and who am I to criticize?Edited by CaptainBoing 2018-04-18
Revlac Guru Joined: 31/12/2016 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1154
Posted: 09:23am 17 Apr 2018
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Did anyone use GEOS for c64? Used to think it was pretty good.
A long time ago a friend of mine had a C64 running 5 1/4 drive with 2 heads, so there was no need to flip the disc, however over time the head carrier bent a bit and that ended up destroying quite a few discs (could hear it squeal), before he worked out the problem with it. I think it was track 18, you could hold the disc up to the light and see straight through. I have done the same with a single head a few times when dirt built up on the head. Used to have a tape drive too, damn those things where slow. Cheers Aaron Off The Grid
Notice. New forum software under development. It's going to miss a few functions and look a bit ugly for a while, but I'm working on it full time now as the old forum was too unstable. Couple days, all good. If you notice any issues, please contact me.
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