 Notice. New forum software under development. It's going to miss a few functions and look a bit ugly for a while, but I'm working on it full time now as the old forum was too unstable. Couple days, all good. If you notice any issues, please contact me. |
Forum Index : Off topic archive. : Synthetic methane 4 storage
  Page 2 of 5   |
|||||
| Author | Message | ||||
Greenbelt Guru  Joined: 11/01/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 566 |
VK4AYQ; Yes, I'm in total agreement. The methane from Landfills,(DUMPS), Dairy farms Manure storage, should be regulated to capture the Gas and use it to power the local Machinery. The Earth has coped with the natural pollution from Swamps, Animals, Volcanoes, and Burning forests. Sometime in the past I read an Article about the apparent stability of Planet Earth, Through various means it was established that the level of oxygen in the atmosphere has remained the same over many hundreds of years. The Theory was that when oxygen percentage increased to 24% Lightning strikes were more likely to start fires Grass or forest with more area burned in many places. The oxygen used in burning the Forest reduced the percentage of Oxy to a level of less volatility, With the loss of Oxy producing Plants, Trees, the Oxy level may swing low meaning that more carbon dioxide would enhance the growth of Plants bringing the level back to the average. Just thought I would pass this on. With several Billion People Dumping pollution It may have got out of hand.? The methane Gas in the Air is slowly broken down by the action of sunlight but it is converted to C-O2 and other things, Time has proven that I am blind to the Obvious, some of the above may be True? |
||||
| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi Greenbelt Thank goodness for solar energy it seems to be the regulator behind the balance, however like a stable ship there is a specific list angle that will cause capsize to start a new set of parameters in this case in the atmosphere and climate. it has happened in the past so lets hope that the mice don't push it to that point again. All the best Bob Foolin Around |
||||
| domwild Guru Joined: 16/12/2005 Location: AustraliaPosts: 873 |
Re methane for transport, From memory it is a problem to liquify methane for transport as it would require a very high pressure vessel and very low temperature. Re hydrogen for transport: We used to have hydrogen busses in Perth but not any more. The gov. must have found out that they are very expensive to run. Taxation as a means of achieving prosperity is like a man standing inside a bucket trying to lift himself up. Winston Churchill |
||||
| Greenbelt Guru Joined: 11/01/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 566 |
domwild; Liquid Hydrogen is the Gas That requires refrigeration Or very Massive super strength Tanks to contain the pressure at ambient temperature. Liquid Methane, abbreviated (LNG) or liquid Natural Gas is handled very much like Propane, The pressures are higher than propane but do not create a handling problem. See this Link, scroll down for a pic of Honda Civic Powered by LNG Time has proven that I am blind to the Obvious, some of the above may be True? |
||||
| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi Greenbelt Thanks for the link on natural gas its very informative, it begs the thought if this is so much better and is readily available why don't the governments make it more available to the public through encouraging people and manufactures to go that way. Pricing of natural gas in my area is around 70 cents a liter and petrol is 125 cents a liter but I note we are selling gas to China at 8 cents a liter delivered. While the price of gas compared to petrol is OK if you have a converted car when you take the cost of conversion of a late model car it would take ten years to recover the cost for town motoring the big advantage is in commercial vehicles where the cost of conversion is negated in two years. Cost to convert my car was quoted at $6000 dollars with a subsidy of $2000 leaving a out of pocket $4000 dollars considering a 20% less mileage it wouldn't be a proposition. If the gas system was built in at manufacture the cost is much less. All the best Bob Foolin Around |
||||
Downwind Guru Joined: 09/09/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2333 |
Hi Bob, You draw the point of [quote] but I note we are selling gas to China at 8 cents a liter delivered. [/quote] I worked in some locations here in Oz that the gas is shipped from to china, and also they burnt enough gas that is produced a day to supply a small nation. The problem is there is no demand and no dollars in the local market to warrent the cost of supply. Rather than burn it as a by produce to oil production we sell it cheap to dispose of it. I still think it better to sell it cheap and allow someone to use the energy compared to just burning it, as atleast its some form of saving resorces on a larger scale. I do agree with the making of LPG cars and you can actually buy a local made car on LPG ex-factory. It would be better to give duty discounts on new gas fitted vehicles than just subsidy on exsisting vehicles. I ran a V8 commodore on gas for many years and smiled at the price for a tank full compared to the other car next to me filling with fuel. Their $ counter would go Click,click,click and mine would go Click.............click..............click. 
I hardly noticed the power difference compared to fuel. Pete. Sometimes it just works |
||||
| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi Pete I take the point on waste it burn it sell it and it is better to get something than nothing. It is such a shame to export an asset that could reduce the coal fired power pollution and then make such a fuss politically about the reduction of the pollution in Australia. It shows to me that we the sheeple are just fed male bovine excrement by the powers to be, and the commercial interests that control them, I am really upset by the selling of the asset base of Australia without thought of commercial enhancement and value adding of the assets. It is like a bankcard economy where the here and now are the only interest and the long term isn't considered as that will be another problem for another year or century. It makes me think that the science fiction films depicting the world of the future to be a arid wasteland with the haves living in the crystal city and the rest surviving by whatever means in the wastelands or sewers of the crystal city as a prophecy of our future. While we muck around trying to make a few watts to reduce power pollution and while commerce and government use up what we save and lots more and then pass the costs on the sheeple including us and our descendants, its like and African dissapearing bird. All the best Bob PS The advantage of gas as a fuel is proven and the economy you mention is terrific in a large engine there is no noticeable difference in normal motoring and with a bit of a redesign none at all as demonstrated by the replica Shelby cobra running on gas. The point I was making on the export of gas cheeeep means that it could be sold here much cheaper than it is and more cars use it and then less pollution. Foolin Around |
||||
SSW_squall Senior Member  Joined: 20/03/2010 Location: AustraliaPosts: 111 |
A combined cycle gas turbine plant can reach an overall thermal efficiency of greater than 60%. Combined cycle being one where the waste heat coming from the turbines burning the gas is used to generate steam (or boil some other working fluid, with a lower boiling point than water). Which in turn drives another turbine that adds to the overall plant output. That has gotta be better than the averge thermal efficiency of a *GOOD* coal fired power station of less than 40%. That's a good enough reason by it's self to F**k off the coal fired power and go with gas. AB Einstein: Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not one bit simpler |
||||
| Downwind Guru Joined: 09/09/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2333 |
The biggest problem is where our resources are located to where the demand is. We have great gas fields off mid Western Austraila coast line, but you live in Queensland Bob. See the problem...........A long way between. You might remember a company wanting to put a processing plant on the mid western coast but the locals and natives protested and prevented it. As you see in the states at present it dont matter where you process, a disaster can occure anywhere and effect a wider area. At least on land it can be contained and is better than in the ocean. The point is if we cant process the gas its not viable cost wise to transport it for our own use. Pete. Sometimes it just works |
||||
| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi Pete I agree that transport is a problem but the Chinese are transporting it all the way home to China so if there was a large enough demand as in clean energy gas fired power stations surely there would be enough demand to make it worthwhile. As for the processing of the gas the Indonesians have large processing barges anchored to process gas, these have special interconnect valved that disconnect in storms and shut down the well. As for processing on land it is much safer and its about time that the protesters no matter what color should be told to bugger off, political correctness is going to far in my opinion, the blacks want to protect their heritage sea shell middons and rings of rocks, when in fact all they want is publicity and money. Pay them a royalty for the land and after all the winging is over they will be happy. By all means sell the excess to China but use the bulk for the advantage of Australia. With the huge gas transport ships around now it would be cheap to transport the gas to the east coast, or in the longer term a pipe across the middle its not much further than the one they are going to build from PNG highlands, and without the sea crossing problems. Also they say there is huge amounts of gas underground in Queensland at the moment they are making plans for a gas export port here so that's practical in the short term Where there is a will there is a way and at the moment the will is only for short term popularity so they get reelected. All the best Bob Foolin Around |
||||
| domwild Guru Joined: 16/12/2005 Location: AustraliaPosts: 873 |
Greenbelt, My knowledge of chemistry is sketchy. Gas coming out of the well is methane, ethane, propane and butane plus lots of others. I suspect lighter fluid is butane and the wall thickness of the cartridge is very thin. Having worked for Woodside from the old days of the Burmah Oil Co. (one teletype machine as the sum total of its IT facility!) I faintly remember methane being a problem gas when it comes to liquifying as it needs high pressure and low temps; am I right or are you wrong? Taxation as a means of achieving prosperity is like a man standing inside a bucket trying to lift himself up. Winston Churchill |
||||
| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi Dom I know very little about the process that they use to liquefy the gas for transport in the ships but I suspect it is at high pressure by the look of the spherical gas holds on the ships. I know that the cost of energy is rising and will continue to do so in the future so it would make sense to me to establish heavy industry that is power hungry near the gas sources as Pete mentioned the gas is in the west and a long way from the east coast population density, but the Iron ore is close by so why not use the gas where it is to value add the Iron ore, and if there was more work there the population would follow. It seems a waste of recourse to send both gas and Iron ore off overseas without getting some further benefit to the populace by value adding. All the best Bob Foolin Around |
||||
| domwild Guru Joined: 16/12/2005 Location: AustraliaPosts: 873 |
Bob, The gas is used for the production of fertilizer in WA. One attempt was made in our Pilbara to value-add by sintering the iron ore fines, which cannot be used in a pig iron furnace as they would clog up the aiways. Unfortunately, the sintering plant, which made small balls of iron ore blew up and killed one or more workers. Taxation as a means of achieving prosperity is like a man standing inside a bucket trying to lift himself up. Winston Churchill |
||||
| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi Dom As they say in classics "You cant beat bad luck" seriously though with gas heating these things happen, my gas hot water machine blew up and cost me a new laundry and washing machine years ago, lucky the wife and kids weren't near when it went off. I think they should have run a power station with the gas and used an electric arc furnace. Didn't realize they used gas to make the fertilizer then again politicians are full of hot gas and with the correct processing they would make fertilizer. Come to think of it the politicians have balls of iron so maybe they have been processed. All the best Bob Foolin Around |
||||
| Greenbelt Guru Joined: 11/01/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 566 |
domwild; am I right or are you wrong? Correct! Sometimes I Generalize too much, To liquefy Natural Gas It must be Cooled first and compressed then stored in double walled Vacuum Insulated tanks and held at a pressure of 112 atmospheres (around 1600 psi). NG can not be liquefied by increasing Pressure according to the info in this link Natural gas compressed to 3000+ psi will occupy a volume 1/3 greater than the same amount when liquefied. so a great deal more gas can be shipped on a Tanker in liquid form. A fuel tank on an auto or truck can be fueled as a liquid from the storage facility without the need for refrigeration equipment. Time has proven that I am blind to the Obvious, some of the above may be True? |
||||
| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi Greenbelt Quote: A fuel tank on an auto or truck can be fueled as a liquid from the storage facility without the need for refrigeration equipment. What happens when it comes up to ambient temperature in the gas tank does it remain liquid or does it classify? Showing my ignorance about gas here, but there is so many sorts of gasses in the natural gas it may vary due to the mixture. All the best Bob Foolin Around |
||||
| Downwind Guru Joined: 09/09/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2333 |
In a sealed vessel as the temp increases slightly so do the pressure, so it remains as a liquid. Pete. Sometimes it just works |
||||
| Greenbelt Guru Joined: 11/01/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 566 |
Hey Bob, When I made that post I ask myself that question, What Happens when It warms Up?? I Googled for an answer and could not find a statement referring to that condition. It may remain in liquid form at 1600 psi. and ambient Temp. It doesn't seem likely that a vehicle would vent gas for refrigeration to keep the tank cool. that would destroy the purpose for using it. In the meantime I will find some good answers and post the findings. Note to Self,, Chin Up! Make No Mistakes, get No Replies, EDIT; PETE, Thanks for the input, This accounts for the Variable pressures I have been seeing on the Net. as the Liquid pressure of LNG, Up to 3200 psi. must be a hot day with the tank in the Sun. Time has proven that I am blind to the Obvious, some of the above may be True? |
||||
| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi All I don't think I would like a 100 Ltr of LNG in the boot of my car at 3000 psi,You could nearly be called a terrorist if the cops wanted to verbal you. All the best Bob Foolin Around |
||||
| Downwind Guru Joined: 09/09/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2333 |
Not sure on your 3000 psi gas theory for aouto use as most vehicals run on propane or lpg as its known as. Same stuff as bbq gas but without the smelly stuff added to let us smell a leak. If you check your bbq gas bottle it has a max test presure of around 450psi and this would be at least twice the standard working pressure. Car gas tanks (cylinders) are simular rated so i think we can put the 3000psi quote to bed. Natural gas or formation gas would be at 3000psi on average in ground as for example one high pressure well i worked on we had gas at @7000 ft. (TVD) The well had a mud weight of 9.4 lb/gal Doing the math.... 9.4 x 0.052 = 0.4888 x 7000 = 3422psi hydrastatic pressure to equal the formation gas pressure. Pete. Sometimes it just works |
||||
| Page 2 of 5 |
|||||
 Print this page |
 |
The Back Shed's forum code is written, and hosted, in Australia. | © JAQ Software 2025 |
