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Forum Index : Off topic archive. : Nuke Power
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| VK4AYQ Guru  Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi Dom There is for and against the nuke power the biggest problem is outside influence that us mice cant control as in Japan, in saying that the plants where old and hadn't passed several safety checks, the fallibility of mankind is their own doing. My Dad used to say that idiots are self eliminating, as we see reflected in the road toll however the idiots in control of power plants have the power to take thousands with them if not more and make a usable piece of country unusable for years and spread horrid diseases far and wide. Car accidents don't pollute large or even small areas of land and it is an unfortunate fact that if we do anything we run a risk of termination, in fact we shouldn't go to bed as statistically most people die in bed, a very dangerous place by statistics. Our demise is regarded as normal and doesn't really affect anybody unless we have been smooching a cow with foot and mouth disease. As I have said before on this thread that my wife's first husband died of radiation poisoning along with all his team, we believe this was caused by faulty component manufacture by GE, it was all swept under the carpet, the question is how many other such instances have happened without documentation. Until the system is perfected we are all at risk as citizens of our little space ship. If the Indonesians go ahead with their project you can be sure that a large portion of the cost that should go to making it safe will end up in the pockets of corrupt officials, this is SOP in Asia. When all the power company Directors and Local politicians live on the upper floor of the plant above the reactors we can then think of having some confidence in their safety. Say No To Nuke until we see an infallible power plant. All the best Bob Foolin Around |
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diver Newbie  Joined: 14/03/2011 Location: United StatesPosts: 7 |
Hi Bob The time to act is now.The 'nuke genie' is for the greedy and shortsighted. Unfortunately.Florida already has plans for a new one by the way. I don't take an ethnic view on power designs! I think like my dear dad did: 'Paper will hold still for anything! I don't think it is productive to debate whether GE or Soviet design is the fault.Failures have occurred in both designs, but its only a matter of time for one of the other' designs to fail. Why chance that possibility? What happens without nuke power? We still survive! Maybe some fat cats will not be as fat: that's the consequences! The trail of dead humans associated with the nuclear age rises everyday. The truth of the matter is they all are wrong to do.and too dangerous to attempt.We survived without them now we may die because of them. What's the point to continue down a deadend. Truthfully I think that Aussies should exorcise a little might to protect from an Indo nukepower plant... Sometimes 'might makes right'.I would think that the UN might do something other than police actions! Economic blockade or a preemptive air strike would not be out of order to be honest. But that's just my opinion Stew  Red sky in morning sailor take warning, red sky at night sailor's delight. |
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| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi Diver If there has been any good come from the disaster in Japan I feel it is that it has aroused the ire of the public towards nuke power and raised the governments awareness that all is not lollies and roses in the nuke energy sector, and while public concern is high they had better take notice if the still want to be in office next term. The time is now to look at energy conservation to reduce energy needs rather than generating more and more, of course that will not please the commercial interests in the power industry and their shareholders. Wind water and sun are the answer not this high energy high danger nuke path we where on. All the best Bob PS:- The only thing that is 100% safe is a dead snake , because it cannot bite you any more, unfortunately a dead or retired nuke power plant is a health hazard for centuries. Foolin Around |
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| domwild Guru Joined: 16/12/2005 Location: AustraliaPosts: 873 |
There is an interesting sideline to this story as we are not nuclear: The Chinese can claim per head we are emitting more CO2 then they themselves. Why? We are a major producer of aluminium, which is frozen electricity. One hopes the scientists can come up with pebble bed reactors or Thorium-based ones, which do not pose any health hazards. Taxation as a means of achieving prosperity is like a man standing inside a bucket trying to lift himself up. Winston Churchill |
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| domwild Guru Joined: 16/12/2005 Location: AustraliaPosts: 873 |
Bob, You are right, the dumb ones eliminate themselves, like the chap who placed a .22 cartridge into the fuse box instead of a new fuse and then shot himself! There is a Darwin web site with examples galore. The problem without coal or other base-load stations is that we are going to find it hard to get the watts required for our modern life style, like going into a hospital and demanding an MRI scan. The WA gov. is no longer running hydrogen buses in Perth and a tidal power station in the Kimberley region has also been vetoed. If it is green, it is costing too much. In the East the carbon sequestration experiment has been shut down. Taxation as a means of achieving prosperity is like a man standing inside a bucket trying to lift himself up. Winston Churchill |
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KarlJ Guru Joined: 19/05/2008 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1178 |
The hydrogen bus you refer to was costing a bomb to fuel, producing Hydrogen is not the answer, it requires and obscene amount of electricity. The new LNG buses being operated now are both clean and efficient and cheap to run, pity they cost $750K a pop to buy. Nuclear power I think has been proven the opposite -ie very safe indeed. There is no real threat being posed here right now and those working to restore order will all be AOK -the mainstream media is all about sensationalising things and if we were realistic we would realise that entire towns in gippsland and other regions close to coal power are slowly being wiped out by oddball illnesses and cancers that must be attributable to the massive emissions of RADIATION!, NOx, SOx etc etc. FYI- when you burn coal or Oil the radioactive particles become airborne. During the rebuilding of the Gas plant just out of Sale most of the workers were receiving max doses of radiation due to the residues in the pipes. I think also we should have a worldwide campaign to stop these here earthquakes which are killing tens of thousands. 2011-03-22_130610_2011-03-14_Fukushima,_triumph_for_nuke_pow er.pdf Luck favours the well prepared |
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| domwild Guru Joined: 16/12/2005 Location: AustraliaPosts: 873 |
Friends, Have mentioned this here before because it is similar to our problems with the alleged Indonesian reactor in an earthquake-prone area: A brand new and fully working reactor was never used and shut down in Austria following a public outcry and a Swiss-style petition. I believe this reactor was housed near Vienna, the capital with 1.3 million or more inhabitants. After it was shut the Slovaks next door built a nuclear reactor right on the Austrian border and this is only about 100 km away from Vienna! As Karlj mentions in the Fukojima article, the bad luck was that the Tsunami flooded the emergency diesel generators, which would have had the power to keep the cooling pumps working, the control graphite rods had already automatically entered the core to stop the neutrons flying around. This entry was triggered via the seismic sensors. If there really is a rector next door to us, let us hope the authorities there make sure the sea wall is high enough to contain even the worst tsunami. Has Sweden ever had a nuclear accident? Taxation as a means of achieving prosperity is like a man standing inside a bucket trying to lift himself up. Winston Churchill |
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Gizmo Admin Group  Joined: 05/06/2004 Location: AustraliaPosts: 5116 |
Sweden has 3 power stations, 10 reactors in total. There have been several incidents http://www.stockholmnews.com/more.aspx?NID=6903, though nothing too serious lucky. See also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_and_radiation_accidents _by_country http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_and_radiation_accidents The best time to plant a tree was twenty years ago, the second best time is right now. JAQ |
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| diver Newbie Joined: 14/03/2011 Location: United StatesPosts: 7 |
Dom I think that the situation of failure is merely a problematical statistical certainty at some point in time, now or then! Many scientists are anti nuclear from way back and posted warnings' for a scientific analysis not 'newsy': update on japan http://allthingsnuclear.org/tagged/Japan_nuclear cheers Stew 'Whiskey is for drinking, water is for fighting' Mark Twain Cooling radioactive reaction down with water is a criminal act it is destruction and the ultimate pollution of a non-renewable resource water(after irradiation). and us! All for what? To overlight in Big cities like Tokyo? 
The pollution of water by radiation is irreversible. This type of emergency scenario is nightmare'like with meltdown being eventual consequence at some place: Japan or elsewhere? Red sky in morning sailor take warning, red sky at night sailor's delight. |
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| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi All As mentioned before my wifes former husband was killed by radiation poisoning in the Philippines, that reactor and plant have been closed now for 20 years. It was only commissioned and test run then closed. As for Indonesia, the only protection we have there is the distance as their safety record in anything they do is worse than terrible. As for future developments we will see, but I would propose that the whole plant is 1000 meters underground no matter how safe they say it is. This world is full of bad luck as we all know, so it will happen the only thing is when it will happen and how bad it will be when it happens. A referendum by the people with a 80 percent majority is the only safe guard. All the best Bob Foolin Around |
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| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi Karl I must disagree with your comments re the safety of Nuke. Quote: Nuclear power I think has been proven the opposite -ie very safe indeed. There is no real threat being posed here right now and those working to restore order will all be AOK -the mainstream media is all about sensationalising things and if we were realistic we would realise that entire towns in gippsland and other regions close to coal power are slowly being wiped out by oddball illnesses and cancers that must be attributable to the massive emissions of RADIATION!, NOx, SOx etc etc. FYI- when you burn coal or Oil the radioactive particles become airborne. You are comparing two solutions both of which are detrimental to health and wellbeing of the community, both should be isolated from the community by an appropriate buffer zone coal 20 Klm Nuke 200 + but our regulators are to stupid to do things like that. Clean energy is the answer but not profitable at present electricity prices, that will change with the tax we where never to have is implemented, but you can bet your Ba**s that most of that will end up in consolidated revenue and not where it should be to do some good. All the best Bob Foolin Around |
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AMUN-RA Senior Member  Joined: 10/03/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 144 |
In recent pics of japan they show the city of tokyo lit up like a christmas tree all some form of comercial advertising not needed but the power stations that need power have none for there pumps my opinion and I tell my clients solar power will give you all you need but not all you want needs can be met with solar wants must be paid for eg carbon tax what do you think???? Mick Every day the sun shines & gravity sucks= free energy. |
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| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi AMUN-RA The point you make is a very valid point, and I know people who have done just that and are perfectly happy with what they have, you do not see them on TV winging that their electricity bill is to high, you only need to look at the homes of these energy hungry people to see why they are winging about the cost of electricity. They have what they want and what they need and leave it on all the time, like the idiots in cities that leave all the buildings lit up all night like a xmas tree. We will see more of this in the future as energy costs soar, when we look back everything was cheap when we where young but inflation is alive and well and to avoid the AIDS component, all must be wiser. All the best Bob Foolin Around |
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| Air Bender Senior Member Joined: 25/01/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 206 |
I think smaller power stations closer to where the power is being used is the right way to go which is slowly starting to unfold now with a few gas turbines being built and a few more being planned which can be run up and down quickly to suport renewable energy. When people can start making a few dollars from feeding into the grid which we are only at the very begining of, we will eventualy have more power than what we know what to do with, and then they will have to introduce something like a power grid stock market so when there is a over supply the price goes down and we all come up with ways to store our power so we can feed it in when the supply drops of and the price goes up. Self regulating. People can be very inovative when it comes to making a dollar. Most of the big power users could easly generate there own power cheaper than what they are paying for it know, especialy big factorys that run there own steam plants, but at the moment the savings are not high enough for them to be botherd. Will there realy be any need for very big power stations in the future. All the best Dean |
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| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi Airbender Big power stations have been popular because the are profitable for the owners, and generate power on a scale that makes the power cheaper per KWH, transmission losses have been paid for by the customers, but that is all set to change in the next few years as light industry are forced by rising energy prices to do more for themselves along with small distributed solar and wind farms. There are several ways to store the energy in a responsible manner and as you say innovation will take care of that. Consumers will have to rationalize their use of power as prices soar, so a reduction in consumption is possible, but not profitable to power producing companies. As in all regulating means the fat cats of society will stack the deck in favor of their profitability, so beware of that in the future. There will need to be an impartial regulator to make it work as government is to stupid and corrupt to be effective. All the best Bob Foolin Around |
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| diver Newbie Joined: 14/03/2011 Location: United StatesPosts: 7 |
I am still amazed that anyone can realistically call for nuclear power plants to be built at all. 'Nimyby ism' or not in my back yard is basis of most of the worlds 'people's opinion. Transmission of electrical power is a bad deal: much power loss and danger inherent in transmission lines,etc. Lets face reality the electrification of the undeveloped countries is going to come one way or the other. Solar powered lighting and basic life needs like water purification and such can be alternatively supplied. The price of progress must be borne by those that produce and desire the improvement. We all want the MRI scan in the medical facility. But will we power down the 'global economy' which wants widgets from Indonesia? These choices are difficult ones. Hard sacrifices will have to be made. Sadly,one of the only benefits of the no fly ban over the US after '911': was the clearing of the skies from all the jet exhaust: that didn't happen. The eventual depletion of oil and coal will force the alternative solutions to become profitable. Relying on carbon tax alone is akin to industrial shell game with industrialists and governments with their greedy hand in the pot:a nasty situation brewing from day 1! just my opinion Stewart Loeblich *Karl that link was not credited or identified .... like wiki which must be eyed with caution as it can be simply an input for unsubstantiated opinions quite frequently. seldom used as reliable for scientific deductive reasoning process examples.ie not done by experts just ordinary people some with with very little knowledge of the subject they post! The examples in wiki on nuke incidents is questionable at the least, fictional at best for example! Red sky in morning sailor take warning, red sky at night sailor's delight. |
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| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi Stew Good point that everybody wants everything, but doesn't want the risks. I feel it will go the way of cigarettes as governments and intelligent people cut back the new markets sought will be the developing countries. Nuke plant makers have billions of dollars tied up in their commercial development and manufacture of these plants, so rather than loose that they will seek markets where regulation is low and government complacency is High. Unfortunately money and profit is their only God and to hell with the risks and permanent damage to the environment. There is so much misinformation on the subject from both side of the discussion, all we can do is use common sense in our assessment and beliefs on the subject. We will all differ on the safety aspect but agree on the imminent danger aspect, when this is combined with Murphies Law and Gybersons Law it is a risky business All the best Bob  Foolin Around |
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Greenbelt Guru Joined: 11/01/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 566 |
When Nuclear Power Reactors Dot the world and become as common as the Gas and Coal fired utilities where will all the waste go? what will you do with all the reactors that have served their Design life time and are no longer safe to operate, a corpse that is to deadly to dismantle and haul away?. Thermal Wells Drilled to Hot Rock. There is a problem with fracturing at great depth, some say it will contribute to earth Quakes. Maybe, Maybe Not. The drill area should be Isolated and fenced with a radius of 20km. and do massive fracturing to get the maximum flow of water through the hot rocks. and drill several wells in the area to recover the high pressure Steam. Drilling is expensive, Measure that against all the safe guards for containing Radiation and the cost of enriched Uranium fuel rods, The Law suits by the community for Radiation Poisoning, The expense of disposing of the waste and fighting the people who don't want the stuff buried there. Heat is the product of Nuclear Fission, What makes Nuclear heat superior to earth core heat. The heat in the rocks is free, No nasties to Put up with or dispose of. Iceland and New Zealand Have massive Geothermal power, It appears to work for them. The Link below is a company in SA. Au. Showing progress, If a choice must be made I vote for this one. Here is a replacement for a Nuke utility, Its a small prototype but think of the possibilities!! Time has proven that I am blind to the Obvious, some of the above may be True? |
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| diver Newbie Joined: 14/03/2011 Location: United StatesPosts: 7 |
To all, and Karl especially I thinks, I was a little heavy handed in my post.. I did not mean to be so harsh in my criticism of your link choice, Karl. My apologies sir! Bob, I am sorry for your wife's loss. Her husbands death and all the members of his team is just another inexcusable incident in the long list of 'Nuclear" option disasters.I am also saddened by GE's track record.Primary 'Defense' contractors exert undue power all over the globe. Their super-status and avoiding accountability go hand in hand. Sieman and Betchel to include Europa's candidates. I wanted to add that the global market seeks someone to manufacture the widgets for the cheapest. This can be done anywhere you can plug in 20.000 sweat shop workers in the third world.. That exploitive tactic will be nourished by the global nature of the consumers at other end of shipping container.…sad. The wallet is some time the biggest vote a little man can do,if anything at all? Boycott nuke manufactured goods? I have to say that I think that man can ‘figure’ alternative power all over the world: wind has tremendous possibilities, and thermal where available and what natural waters left unexploited by hydro power. Germany’s program of power buyback should be universally worldwide regulation for all commercial power generating facilities to buy any electric power fed back into their public domain grid. Relying on cheapest bidder: when buying has other faults too! The US experience reveals that sad fact: when the Tomahawks first flew… (early 90's) Wide spread incidental groundings of the initial volley fired, as they either failed or were shot down (unexploded) as they flew low over Iran (not their target incidentally)over a decade and a half ago.. The resulting emergence of the Iranian Tiger, a similar weapon, is result of unintended technology transfer. The design flaw that allowed this to happen was corrected but horse was long gone after that door was closed... ’Nuclear plant construction… U.S (all GE)’. sadly has a poor record: as accidents are human and designs of the ‘genie’s bottle’ are all complicated and too risky to be blunt! To err is human .* At least if a typhoon takes out all a municipal sized wind array you don’t have to evacuate.people… jeeez….. its not rocket science you need…Unless you want to go the moon or blow up the world! Some wind turbine tech links below offer high tech hope? http://www.mdpi.com/1996-1073/3/4/634/pdf http://web.mit.edu/aeroastro/www/people/widnall/turbine3.pdf cheers Stewart Loeblich Vows made in stormy waters are forgotten in calm ones Red sky in morning sailor take warning, red sky at night sailor's delight. |
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| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi Diver The most uncommon thing in government and commerce is common sense, the mighty Dollar takes precedence in all cases even if the do lip service to safety. Germany is taking the lead in renew ables at the moment and good for them it may shame some others to start on the track. With all the emphasis on safety in all work place and car design but the lack of it in public safety really boggles the mind. Thank you for the concern on my wifes behalf, it is a shame that there wasn't more fellow feeling for ones that have died or been maimed by this insidious radiation, we live in an insular society which is happy when it doesn't happen to them, and when it happens to others it is mealy collateral damage. Wind wave and sun along with geothermal could supply 4 times the worldwide need for power but at a cost. All the best Bob Foolin Around |
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