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Forum Index : Microcontroller and PC projects : FTDI and Microsoft Are Still At It

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bigmik

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Posted: 12:00am 13 Jun 2015
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  Gordz said   There is also the tool offered at FTDI
http://www.ftdichip.com/Support/Utilities.htm


Hi Gordz,

Which tool specifically?? There are quite a lot of them there and none state anything like `return to working order chips maliciously rendered useless by FTDI'

Regards,

Mick
Mick's uMite Stuff can be found >>> HERE (Kindly hosted by Dontronics) <<<
 
robert.rozee
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Posted: 12:20am 13 Jun 2015
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i believe the way the drivers 'brick' the clone chips is by setting their VID to zero. for those unaware, the VID is the "vendor ID", a number issued to the vendor (in this case FTDI) by the USB association people. in a sense, the VID 'belongs' to the vendor, so FTDI have a possible (but perhaps not good) defence that they are changing a number they own. with the VID set to zero, the FTDI drivers can no longer recognize the device.

however, FTDI provides configuration software that lets you change the VID and PID ("product ID") on their devices. this is accomplished by the program searching the hardware for an FTDI chip, irrespective of what the VID and/or PID is set to. i have used this software before in a commercial setting - it can also change a number of other operating parameters on the device.

if i were FTDI, i would have by now changed their configuration software so that it refuses to work with a cloned device. so you may well need to find an older version of the configuration software from somewhere else.

in a commercial environment, a manufacturer can put FTDI devices into their product, then change the VID and PID to different numbers that the USB association people have issued to the manufacturer. the manufacturer can at the same time take the FTDI reference drivers and modify them to match, along with making their own customizations. they then have a set of drivers that are unique to their product and will never be updated by anyone but themselves.


cheers,
rob :-)Edited by robert.rozee 2015-06-14
 
twofingers

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Joined: 02/06/2014
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Posted: 12:57am 13 Jun 2015
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  bigmik said  
  Gordz said   There is also the tool offered at FTDI
http://www.ftdichip.com/Support/Utilities.htm


Hi Gordz,

Which tool specifically?? There are quite a lot of them there and none state anything like `return to working order chips maliciously rendered useless by FTDI'

Regards,

Mick

Hi Mick,

I did it with the FT_PROG 2.8.2.0. There is a link for download a "previous version" (previous of 3.0.56.245) named 2.8.3.2 which I would prefer. But I didn't tested it yet.

As Robert mentioned:
  Quote  if i were FTDI, i would have by now changed their configuration software so that it refuses to work with a cloned device.

Therefore seems a older version more confidential.

MichaelEdited by twofingers 2015-06-14
causality ≠ correlation ≠ coincidence
 
boss

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Joined: 19/08/2011
Location: Canada
Posts: 268
Posted: 07:28pm 13 Jun 2015
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Hi,

CP2104 (CP2102 successor) is preferred chip for me.

boss
 
bigmik

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Posted: 01:15am 14 Jun 2015
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Hi Bo,

The only problem with the CP family is that it is a real pain to get the drivers to work with win 8.1 64bit..

I like FTDI but I don't like what they are doing to chips they determine to be non genuine...

I would prefer they not work than kill the fake.

Mick
Mick's uMite Stuff can be found >>> HERE (Kindly hosted by Dontronics) <<<
 
boss

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Posted: 04:15am 14 Jun 2015
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@Mike

Oh yes, you are right, I forgot to say you must download and install driver from Silicon Lab site first. I replaced all FTDI clone chips on 3 comps with 8.1/64b with absolutely no problem.

Bo
 
Geoffg

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Posted: 05:31pm 03 Feb 2016
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These people just don't give up.

By accident I recently plugged what turned out to be a non genuine FTDI chip into a Windows 10 computer and the latest driver from FTDI/Microsoft reprogrammed it to only transmit the message "NON GENUINE DEVICE FOUND!".

This is just as bad as bricking the chip.

I actively recommend anyone against anyone using FTDI chips because you can never be sure that you have purchased the genuine article. This is what happens when a company punishes their end users... they loose business.

Geoff
Geoff Graham - http://geoffg.net
 
Grogster

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Posted: 05:37pm 03 Feb 2016
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I can understand their(FTDI's) intentions to protect their devices(which is fair enough), but this whole thing seems to have backfired and one would have thought they would have stopped doing that bricking thing by now after the first round of backlash.

Looks like MicroBlocks' USB chip is the best way forward.
Smoke makes things work. When the smoke gets out, it stops!
 
TassyJim

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Joined: 07/08/2011
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Posted: 06:43pm 03 Feb 2016
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  Geoffg said   only transmit the message "NON GENUINE DEVICE FOUND!".

This is just as bad as bricking the chip.

Geoff

Not quite. The chips still work as normal in Linux and (I think) older PC's with the early drivers.

I have gone to CH340 chips with good results (so far). I also like to keep the USB-TTL bit on a separate board to make replacement easy.

Jim

VK7JH
MMedit
 
MicroBlocks

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Joined: 12/05/2012
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Posted: 07:12pm 03 Feb 2016
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I had a uMite workshop going bust this way. Never ever again an FTDI!
A unaware buyer should never be punished.

The one i made uses the standard CDC driver from microsoft, so no dependencies on a specific driver.
And as a bonus it is also a PIC32 programmer (Using Robert's pic32prog icsp_ascii), just because it can. :)
Edited by MicroBlocks 2016-02-05
Microblocks. Build with logic.
 
bigmik

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Posted: 08:32pm 03 Feb 2016
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Lads,

I Hate that FTDI are doing this, but I think it is just the Driver reporting the `NON Genuine' message and it isn't detroying the chip, Or I hope that is what is happening.. I might have to try one..

As far as I am aware ALL of the clone/fake chips are FT232RL branded..

My MuP-TTL uses the FT231 chip which is a genuine FTDI product and is not cloned or faked and as an added bonus is less than half the price of the genuine FT232RL chip.

Anyway I don't wish to hijack this thread to plug my products! People interested know how they can get more information.

Regards,

Mick


Mick's uMite Stuff can be found >>> HERE (Kindly hosted by Dontronics) <<<
 
Geoffg

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Posted: 08:52pm 03 Feb 2016
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  bigmik said  I think it is just the Driver reporting the `NON Genuine' message and it isn't detroying the chip

Well, what happened was that I plugged it into a Windows 10 machine which made the right noises but no serial port appeared. I then plugged it into a Windows 7 machine that does not get Microsoft updates and it appeared to work with a COM port number.

However, when I pressed reset on the Micromite expecting to see the startup banner in Tera Term it displayed the NON GENUINE DEVICE FOUND! message over and over. It looked as if every character in the banner was replaced with a character in this message (ie, the repeated message length was about the same length as the banner).

It could be the Win 7 driver but I doubt it. I just tossed the bloody thing in the bin with the wish that FTDI go broke and that their beer will always taste sour.

Geoff
Geoff Graham - http://geoffg.net
 
CircuitGizmos

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Joined: 08/09/2011
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Posted: 04:05am 04 Feb 2016
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FTDI has made their way onto a lot of "do not design with this chip" lists.

Micromites and Maximites! - Beginning Maximite
 
WhiteWizzard
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Posted: 04:19am 04 Feb 2016
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My turn for a 'rant'

I'm finding it a bit funny (or should that be strange) that people are slating FTDI while they themselves are using cheap 'knock off's' which then suddenly stop working. This is not FTDI's fault. And what is wrong that they should have the right to 'protect' their product from the people cloning their technology?

At the end of the day, if you buy a cheap 'copied' bargain - expect it not to work!

And if you do pay the 'RRP' from a reputable supplier you will find you won't have issues. If RRP price is an issue (i.e. you think it is too high) then simply use an alternative product/supplier.

Genuine FT231's are cheap and work well with the MM (as BigMick will testify).

Would you buy a £2,000 branded TV from a 'stranger' in a car-park for only £400, and then expect it to work without issues when you get it home???

Rant over


 
Chris Roper
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Joined: 19/05/2015
Location: South Africa
Posts: 280
Posted: 04:24am 04 Feb 2016
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I am surprised that FTDI are still in business, especially as they didn't learn their lesson the first time round.

Given the complexity and number of middle men no manufacturer, especially a small concern using 100's rather than thousands of devices, can be totally confident that the supply chain is not compromised.

A customer buys a device that the driver brakes will take it out on their supplier, they don't give a dam where the parts come from, so the probably innocent manufacturer takes the blame and has his reputation destroyed, the counterfeiters and FTDI get off scot free.

The only defence is to cut out the entire supply chain and specify anything other than FTDI parts.

With more Controllers now supporting native USB, FTDI are now not only standing but starting to dance on thin ice.

I use the PIC16F1455 and that's why I brought it to the lists attention last time. With Robert/Microblocks enhancements it is perfect for Micromite users.

There is also Great Cow Basic team working on a USB Library for the PIC161455 and other USB enhanced PIC's.

Cheers
Chris





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http://caroper.blogspot.com/
 
Grogster

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Posted: 04:25am 04 Feb 2016
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The Wizzard has a point. Having said that, I think the problem is that the clones are very difficult to detect until you get one that bricks - they look identical to the genuine article. But then if you buy from an authorised distributor, you should not have that problem - unless the distributor gets sent a batch of clones!
Smoke makes things work. When the smoke gets out, it stops!
 
Geoffg

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Posted: 05:24am 04 Feb 2016
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  WhiteWizzard said   Would you buy a £2,000 branded TV from a 'stranger' in a car-park for only £400, and then expect it to work without issues when you get it home?

I would be very upset if Panasonic or Sony came into my home and put an axe through my £400 TV. I have no relationship at all with FIDI yet you are telling me that it is OK for them to kill my hardware because "I should have known better". When I bought this device l did not even know that clones of their chips existed.

This sort of specious argument could be used to explain away any bad behaviour.
Geoff Graham - http://geoffg.net
 
JohnS
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Posted: 07:37am 04 Feb 2016
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  WhiteWizzard said  I'm finding it a bit funny (or should that be strange) that people are slating FTDI while they themselves are using cheap 'knock off's' which then suddenly stop working. This is not FTDI's fault. And what is wrong that they should have the right to 'protect' their product from the people cloning their technology?

At the end of the day, if you buy a cheap 'copied' bargain - expect it not to work!


Thing is, FTDI actively reprogram them NOT to work i.e. what was working is disabled by the new (now quite old) FTDI Windows driver - you can see how on the net.

The way you typically find out you have a copy is that it stops working because FTDI deliberately bricked it.

Once broken in that way it can be recovered e.g. under Linux.

Overall, it's simpler just to avoid anything branded FTDI in future.

They're quite slow and ridiculously expensive USB serial port chips anyway. PL2303, CP210x and CH340 all seem to work faster and are cheaper.

JohnEdited by JohnS 2016-02-05
 
atmega8

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Posted: 09:41am 04 Feb 2016
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  Geoffg said  
  WhiteWizzard said  
I'm finding it a bit funny (or should that be strange) that people are slating FTDI while they themselves are using cheap 'knock off's' which then suddenly stop working. This is not FTDI's fault. And what is wrong that they should have the right to 'protect' their product from the people cloning their technology?

At the end of the day, if you buy a cheap 'copied' bargain - expect it not to work!Would you buy a £2,000 branded TV from a 'stranger' in a car-park for only £400, and then expect it to work without issues when you get it home?




High WW, but this a complete different situation isn't it?

sh*t, clone ore what else you have bought.
You have paid for it, and then it is your property.
Nobody has the right to destroy your property, and this is exact what FTDI is doing.






Edited by atmega8 2016-02-05
 
WhiteWizzard
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Posted: 09:45am 04 Feb 2016
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If you buy a product and it develops a 'fault', then here in Europe the law is on your side (and I believe in America too). The Consumer Rights law gets around all kind of 'issues' faced when taking a 'faulty' product back to the supplier - even when well outside the 'warranty period'.

A reputable company that sold you the original product will replace/refund you. A 'dishonest' company will not refund you (not without a battle anyway!)

So if you buy something like a camera which unknowingly to you had a 'cloned' FTDI chip in it, then you are entitled to a refund as it is not 'fit for purpose'.

If you buy a product that you knowingly has an FTDI chip in it (ie. a USB-to-Serial FTDI module!) then you are also entitled to a refund/replacement if it contained a clone and hence stopped working under Win10.

Now consider that you know the RRP of an FTDI chip, then buying a complete FTDI module/PCB at a fraction of the RRP price of the chip alone, then the onus is more on you (my TV in a car park scenario). The company selling these cheaper modules is likely to be more difficult to deal with when asking for a refund.

So you do not need to know whether a 'gadget' has a FTDI chip in it or not; you just need to be prepared to ask for refund when/if the 'gadget' develops a fault that demonstrably was not caused by you.

Would love to know if COnsumer Rights Law's are as strong for our friends in Australia/NZ.






 
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