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Forum Index : Microcontroller and PC projects : How about a name change?
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Grogster Admin Group  Joined: 31/12/2012 Location: New ZealandPosts: 9588 |
Early BASIC was just that: BEGINNER'S all-purpose symbolic instruction code. MMBASIC is a whole new beast entirely, as I am sure most would agree, and I think that is the main point kiiid is trying to get across. Not that MMBASIC is being held back in features and ability per-se', but that despite it's features and power for a BASIC, as soon as you mention 'BASIC' people familiar with writing program code just scoff and turn their noses up at it - before they have even looked at it. They are just putting the likes of MMBASIC in the same basket as Sinclair ZX81 BASIC, which was practically useless even in it's day. It could do "Toy" things, and that was really what it was sold on, but that was 30 years ago, yet mention BASIC, and people still compare a modern version of BASIC with the 30-year old stuff, which is unfair anyway and comparing apples and oranges really. But you can't get them to change their minds, cos of that stigma. I think this is just the way it is, and you are not likely to every change their opinion despite the fact that MMBASIC is really one of the most powerful BASIC's out there now that I can think of - please suggest others if I am wrong, as I don't want to be saying MMBASIC is something it's not, but from the likes of Liberty BASIC, MMBASIC is easier to use then that one, for example. MHO only. Interesting thread guys. As a little side note, I have products that have been running flawlessly on PICAXE BASIC for almost ten years, and no-one even KNOWS it is running a BASIC interpreter, and they are perfectly happy with it. Why? Cos it just does what they want it to do. As WW has been saying, the result is the most important thing. Humans are a funny old species. Smoke makes things work. When the smoke gets out, it stops! |
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| robert.rozee Guru  Joined: 31/12/2012 Location: New ZealandPosts: 2428 |
i think the power of MMBASIC is in the integration with the hardware - the commands for accessing device pins and peripherals (I2C, DS18B20, PWM, SERVO, etc) with great ease. another key point not often dwelt on is that in the micromites BASIC (the user code) is run from flash memory. this leaves the full RAM space available for variables. i've been waiting to see if geoff backports this major advancement to the maximite. i believe a relaunch of the maximite hardware with run-from-flash would magic, greatly expanding the usefulness of the maximite platform. cheers, rob :-) |
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| Phil23 Guru Joined: 27/03/2016 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1667 |
I've known amateur college programmers BASIC to Pascal & C to improve their "Creditability" amongst their peers, by not being known as someone that "Plays" with Basic... Their ability to produce results decreased. I also have associates who are competent in C & Assembly, and they are well known to turn to BASIC if the need requires, & never heard these guys scoff at if. My thought's are that to beginners the name sounds attractive, just as the code reads. And to anyone more established, they know BASIC can be powerful, and would take a look at a versions capabilities & specifications & assess it from there. Hence I think the term should not be changed. Phil |
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| matherp Guru Joined: 11/12/2012 Location: United KingdomPosts: 10204 |
What is it in the Maximite you like that isn't now in the Micromite+? If it is VGA video, this isn't possible on the Micromite chips as they don't have the necessary hardware. The Micromite firmware running on a MZ chip could also include video as the new MZ have the needed SPI ports. Just interested. Personally I've given up on the Maximite as W10 keeps loading the wrong USB driver and I can never get comms to work for more that one reboot cycle  |
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| JohnS Guru Joined: 18/11/2011 Location: United KingdomPosts: 4035 |
I think it's more that the features in the mm+ would be nice on the Maximite? (Optionally with/without VGA.) On names, those worried about BASIC: just call it something else if you actually name it at all - which I strongly suggest you do not (no-one asks what Word is written in...). John |
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| WhiteWizzard Guru Joined: 05/04/2013 Location: United KingdomPosts: 2932 |
I think you are missing the point. Kiiid is saying that when you tell a 'systems' person that you have to use BASIC to code the MM, then their face turns to a frown. You can't 'not tell them' what the coding environment is if they are using it at a 'coding' level!! As previously mentioned by myself - those that do that are ALWAYS MicroSoft brainwashed people that think you must use a MS 'platform' otherwise they think it not worthwhile. |
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| JohnL Senior Member  Joined: 10/01/2014 Location: SeychellesPosts: 128 |
The other way around, stuff in Micromite that has left Maximites way behind. All those early adopters of MMbasic have been left behind without updates for a long time. Doesn't look good from the support point of view. One very good reason not to take MMbasic seriously. With one man band development and closed source, how long will current Micromite chips be supported and alive? |
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| JohnS Guru Joined: 18/11/2011 Location: United KingdomPosts: 4035 |
If they're brainwashed about MS then according to you that's already an end isn't it? Wat I'm saying is DON'T tell these systems people it's BASIC. If they're so brainwashed then just don't say it. They're not going to be happy it's a non-Intel-compatible (and not even ARM) CPU, too. Frankly those sorts of "systems people" are going to have no clue about uC programming anyway. They won't understand what a datasheet is let alone how to read one. Etc. Sell a solution, not a problem... John |
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| WhiteWizzard Guru Joined: 05/04/2013 Location: United KingdomPosts: 2932 |
Exactly John, that is what I am saying too. It is Kon that has the issue with the [people he is speaking to hence my posts . . . .  |
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| JohnS Guru Joined: 18/11/2011 Location: United KingdomPosts: 4035 |
Or just use micropython or the like and they'll be happy (this year; next year expect another fad; recently it was lua). Or change customer. There must be 10 million possible customers. John |
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| WhiteWizzard Guru Joined: 05/04/2013 Location: United KingdomPosts: 2932 |
No John (possibly you've not read all the posts here) Simply keep MMBASIC and know your product AND audience when demonstrating 'your' solution! I am more than happy with the word BASIC, I am just responding to Kon's initial post |
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sagt3k Guru Joined: 01/02/2015 Location: ItalyPosts: 313 |
Hi to everybody I love words as "MMBasic" or "Micromite"... Identify a product and a reality... Thanks Sagt3k |
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| srnet Senior Member Joined: 08/08/2014 Location: United KingdomPosts: 164 |
Well, for sure there are a lot of computer language snobs out there. I think a great part of the reason why such people can be very dissmissive about 'Basic' is because the common alternative (C\C++) is 'reassuringly complex' Its clear to most sensible people that the syntax of C\C++ is fairly obscure and difficult to read, surley if C\C++ was re-designed today it would not be done that way. I suspect a lot of programmers rather like the fact that C\C++ syntax is the way it is as it ensures that only 'real' programmers are good at it. And therin lies the apparent problem with Basic, its a lot easier to read and understand, you dont need to be a code guru to produce quite advanced applications. A lot of people dont like that. $50SAT is Silent but probably still working. For information on LoRa visit http://www.loratracker.uk/ |
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| WhiteWizzard Guru Joined: 05/04/2013 Location: United KingdomPosts: 2932 |
1000% totally agree with you. |
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| WhiteWizzard Guru Joined: 05/04/2013 Location: United KingdomPosts: 2932 |
@srnet oh that is so true; especially your last sentence! . . . . |
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| JohnS Guru Joined: 18/11/2011 Location: United KingdomPosts: 4035 |
I've read 'em - but left out an @kiiid (or whoever) then unlike many forums can't edit a post to add it. He seems to have a problem most others don't have so I was suggesting ways to overcome it. For those thinking C has awkward syntax it's because you don't use it much if at all but only see rather odd samples (such as for the internals of the mites, where it's not being used for the usual things). Internals and hardware accessing tend to bring out the worst of C as people write compressed code to be small, efficient and do things that are painful. In a sense C matches that tweaked version of a saying "it's a nice place to live but I wouldn't want to visit there". John |
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| WhiteWizzard Guru Joined: 05/04/2013 Location: United KingdomPosts: 2932 |
Hey, thats a great saying in this context  |
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bigmik Guru Joined: 20/06/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2949 |
Hi All, I have refrained from commenting till now (a few sighs can be heard in the distance). The problem appears to be the perception that BASIC is slow and cumbersome and is not received well in the `programming community' .. Well changing the name to something that doesn't say BASIC wont change that IMHO.. It will only aggravate those who despise BASIC and make them feel that we are ashamed of what it is.. So I for one do not see a need to remove the name BASIC from the name.. I would be more than happy, however, to see names like ABasic (Advanced BASICS) or eBasic (ENHANCED or Extended) or even ACB (advanced C embedded BASIC) but not using the Name BASIC will not fool anyone into using it who doesnt like BASIC. Anyway that is my 2c. Kind Regards, Mick Mick's uMite Stuff can be found >>> HERE (Kindly hosted by Dontronics) <<< |
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| robert.rozee Guru Joined: 31/12/2012 Location: New ZealandPosts: 2428 |
to date, i've viewed the 'mites as falling into three quite distinct groupings, each with a unique set of distinctive features: MX150/MX170, low-end. single-chip solutions perfectly suited to a teaching environment and the hobbyist. one chip + capacitor is all that is required to make it work. great for 'rapid prototyping'. DIP package is breadboard friendly. MX470, mid-range. device package (QFP), need for crystal and many filter capacitors leaves the average hobbyist most likely to use of a ready-made module. as a result, much higher cost than the MX170. the average user on an average budget is unlikely to have a tube of MX470's sitting on the workbench, whereas with the MX170 this is quite possible. adding a colour LCD screen is easy, but expensive. many more I/O pins available and SD card support open up new project options. MX695/795, closer to a desktop system. standard VGA system is a defining feature. from the perspective of the average person using it, the fact that the MX6/7 devices are older is not really exposed. each of the three are very different beasts. while an MZ maximite would be neat, my understanding is that harmony has been a major impediment to getting there. whereas, the MX695/MX795 is known to work. just had another big quake. the earth moved! cheers, rob :-) |
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TassyJim Guru Joined: 07/08/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 6269 |
Bugger. I was going to go to the travel agents and book our flights to NZ today. The BOSS now says "no way" We weren't going to go until April/May but I think I will have to start looking for somewhere else. Jim VK7JH MMedit |
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