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Forum Index : Microcontroller and PC projects : Raspberry Pi enters microcontrer game with a $4 Pico
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| lizby Guru  Joined: 17/05/2016 Location: United StatesPosts: 3305 |
I can't speak to his current assessment, but there's this from August of 2018: From here (well into the thread). ~ Edited 2021-01-24 01:47 by lizby PicoMite, Armmite F4, SensorKits, MMBasic Hardware, Games, etc. on fruitoftheshed |
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| matherp Guru Joined: 11/12/2012 Location: United KingdomPosts: 10030 |
Usage No. 4 Probably Don't know, an interpreter is different to compiled code and the fact that the ESP32 (and this chip) use external flash memory may impact on performance. Logically the answer should be yes. I can't find a comparative performance benchmark of the ESP32 running micro-python vs say a STM32. This would give a better idea. The biggest hurdle to any new architecture is the learning curve, including for the IDE. The Arduino IDE (term used loosely) and MBed are not good enough for building something like MMBasic so you need to work with a real IDE and neither are supported by the GCC/Eclipse environment that is the basis of many professional quality IDEs |
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| ceptimus Senior Member  Joined: 05/07/2019 Location: United KingdomPosts: 130 |
The Pi Pico is supported in more professional IDE environments such as Eclipse, CLion, Visual Studio Code, etc. You can do on-line debugging via its SWDEBUG port, and you can use a Raspberry Pi, or another Pi Pico as the debug interface. |
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hitsware2 Guru Joined: 03/08/2019 Location: United StatesPosts: 715 |
> Python is arguably a modern form of BASIC !!!!!!!!!! FOR SURE !!!!!!!!!!! One advantage of the Pico ( for me anyways ) is that it ' s more Raspberry Pi than Windows centric .... Unlike the majority ..... my site |
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RetroJoe Senior Member Joined: 06/08/2020 Location: CanadaPosts: 290 |
Oh, man - you grabbed the third rail with both hands! People seem to hate Python with a burning passion around here :) To your point, if indenting is a universally accepted best practice, why is enforcing it in the language syntax such a horrible crime? Never understood that - computer folks are supposed to be as logical as Mr. Spock, but that's a logic gap big enough to drive a truck through. Personally, I tend to be very libertarian when it comes to these things - there is no monopoly on good ideas, and both BASIC and Python are delightful, easy-to-use languages. They also both have the virtue of being easy to learn (readable syntax, interpreted REPL, etc), which is why Python is the defacto "new BASIC". Now JavaScript, OTOH - despite its enormous popularity, I think it's a train wreck. The sheer number of inventions designed to make JS useable is astounding! Edited 2021-01-24 03:30 by RetroJoe Enjoy Every Sandwich / Joe P. |
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| ceptimus Senior Member Joined: 05/07/2019 Location: United KingdomPosts: 130 |
Yeah, JavaScript has some good parts, but lots of horrible parts too. The reason it's enormously popular is that, for historical reasons, it's the language implemented by browsers - so all the web pages that want to run stuff on the client have to use it. I think if we were starting out now, then JavaScript, at least in its current form, would not be the language of browsers - and Python would be a good choice as a better alternative. The problem with trying to replace JavaScript now is that there are already millions of Web pages that use it, and lots of 'proper' computer languages, such as Dart, already target JavaScript as their compiled output. If we do try to swap to Python, or some other language(s), then browsers will need to support both/all those languages for many years during the changeover period: not likely to happen, in my opinion. It's a bit like the QWERTY keyboard layout - it's out in the wild for historical reasons; and while there may be better layouts available, it would be too big a change to make it happen now. QWERTY will likely remain the dominant layout for as long as people continue to use keyboards. Edited 2021-01-24 03:57 by ceptimus |
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| matherp Guru Joined: 11/12/2012 Location: United KingdomPosts: 10030 |
Its not just indenting, scoping, the catastrophic version incompatibility, renaming long term concepts like arrays, typing by usage etc. Like javascript it seems like a language that has been extended beyond its core syntax (if there ever was one) |
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| RetroJoe Senior Member Joined: 06/08/2020 Location: CanadaPosts: 290 |
Very good points all, particularly the concerns about fragmentation. In reality, though, the variety of MM devices and MCUs is already pretty fragmented, and IMHO it is MMBasic that is "the platform", not the hardware it happens to be running on. That being said, hardware capabilities are important, and the "drift" in different CMM2 implementations will become increasingly problematic for software developers (e.g. mouse or no mouse?) A cheap and cheerful $20 "standard gadget" like the TTGO, preflashed with MMBasic, could be a great on-ramp to the MM community for people unwilling to spend $100+. I'm really into this stuff, and it took me over a year to pull the trigger :) imagine what a standardized WiFi implementation, courtesy of the ESP32, would enable: we could get a dedicated CMM BBS up and running (addressing your fourth bullet above...), teachers could easily network a bunch of "MiniMites" in a classroom setting, it could be deployed as an IoT edge device, etc. etc. The VIC-20 emulator in the FabGL library is a great "art of the possible" demo for this use case. It comes packaged with a few game cartridge images, and then can connect to your WiFi and download a bunch of others OTA. BTW, I think it's a foregone conclusion that Peter will not be the one doing any porting! Enjoy Every Sandwich / Joe P. |
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| ceptimus Senior Member Joined: 05/07/2019 Location: United KingdomPosts: 130 |
But, of course, there is only one BASIC.  Obligatory XKCD cartoon.  |
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| matherp Guru Joined: 11/12/2012 Location: United KingdomPosts: 10030 |
No-one would pretend Basic is an exemplar. Currently C++ is probably as good as it gets and in the hands of a master is so elegant I really like the way this guy presents and uses it. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC-yuWVUplUJZvieEligKBkA My concern is the use of python as a first language - it seems to me to promote/allow so much bad practice which will bite the programmer as they try to scale up the size of their projects Personally I think MMBasic with OPTION EXPLICIT/OPTION DEFAULT NONE hardwired would promote a better grounding despite the lack of any OO pretensions |
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| RetroJoe Senior Member Joined: 06/08/2020 Location: CanadaPosts: 290 |
Peter's gonna love this - have you heard of Brython (Browser Python)? It's a Python interpreter... written in JS !! Amazingly, it works, and works pretty well. Like a graceful dancing bear :) I guess it's for people who want to do browser stuff but either hate JS or love Python, but it probably strikes a lot of folks as the "worst of both worlds". Edited 2021-01-24 04:54 by RetroJoe Enjoy Every Sandwich / Joe P. |
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| ceptimus Senior Member Joined: 05/07/2019 Location: United KingdomPosts: 130 |
Hey, I started with BASIC, and maybe you did too? I think beginners need an easy start, and they'll engage in bad practice regardless. Most will never progress beyond that, but the keen ones will then move to more grown up languages (one of which could be a more structured form of BASIC), and then they'll begin to learn how to do things properly. Edited 2021-01-24 04:51 by ceptimus |
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| RetroJoe Senior Member Joined: 06/08/2020 Location: CanadaPosts: 290 |
I'm guessing 98.6% of the folks on TBS got started with BASIC :) There are some real computing veterans here who predate even BASIC, but I have to agree - learning BASIC taught me just about everything I needed in later life. Not just the procedural syntax and such, but design and system thinking, layers of abstraction, and how to decompose a large problem into smaller, modular, solvable ones. Enjoy Every Sandwich / Joe P. |
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lew247 Guru Joined: 23/12/2015 Location: United KingdomPosts: 1702 |
I learnt basic on a computer in 1977 that had basic loaded in it with punched tape once it was turned on, it had no monitor only a printer. And to "kinda" quote someone above The ideal thing would be a board that had the power of the CMM2, Wifi/bluetooth along with the commands to use them and normal displays capability as well as vga if wanted but minimal so it was cheap Edited 2021-01-24 05:22 by lew247 |
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| JohnL Senior Member Joined: 10/01/2014 Location: SeychellesPosts: 128 |
60Hz 1080p from a $4 Raspberry Pi Pico microcontroller (buttery smooth) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjFwR3feyV0&t=5s&ab_channel=GrahamSanderson New PIO Magic, CMM2 Eat your heart out , only $4. 8 x Programmable I/I (PIO) state machines for custom peripheral support. Running as independent hardware processes from main MPU. How much is the simplest PIC32 running MMB and what performance does it have? Edited 2021-01-24 16:59 by JohnL |
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| lew247 Guru Joined: 23/12/2015 Location: United KingdomPosts: 1702 |
Wow that's streaming video off the sd card? impressive This is actually a good read hardware design with rp2040 Edited 2021-01-24 18:03 by lew247 |
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| matherp Guru Joined: 11/12/2012 Location: United KingdomPosts: 10030 |
If you look at the schematic you will see that the I/F uses every single I/O line of the Pico. Yes it is an impressive demo but when running it the pico can do preciously nothing else. There is a huge difference between using an embedded uP for a simple dedicated task and having a similar capability in a general purpose computer |
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| lew247 Guru Joined: 23/12/2015 Location: United KingdomPosts: 1702 |
Totally agree with you, I do think there may be as said earlier, newer versions of the board in a year or so that add much needed functionality It had the possibility to be a brilliant board. |
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| JohnL Senior Member Joined: 10/01/2014 Location: SeychellesPosts: 128 |
I think you are wrong. VGA is generated by independent PIO hardware state machine processors, that have shared/direct access to GPIO lines, FIFO buffering, etc. Programmed with relatively few instructions assembly code. As I understand this should leave main MPU to do "mostly" other tasks? There is example code for both C/C++ SDK and Micropython. This thing has simple but very fast parallel processors to do independent GPIO processing. Edited 2021-01-24 19:07 by JohnL |
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| matherp Guru Joined: 11/12/2012 Location: United KingdomPosts: 10030 |
I just looked at the schematic and every line is used pico_vga_sd_aud-sch.pdf Note also the display is in black and white as the Pico doesn't have enough memory to buffer a 1920x1080 image Edited 2021-01-24 19:52 by matherp |
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