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Forum Index : Off topic archive. : Nuke Power
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| VK4AYQ Guru  Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Friday 20th May Hiroaki Koide of Kyoto University: "No One Knows How Fukushima Could Be Wound Down" As the Corium May Be Melting Through the Foundation So says Hiroaki Koide of Kyoto University Research Reactor Institute, in a telephone interview on May 19 with independent video-journalist Tetsuo Jinbo of Videonews.com (who did the video report of the 20-kilometer radius evacuation zone back in April, showing cows and dogs prowling the deserted towns). Koide is practically agreeing with Christopher Busby that there's not much anyone can do to stop the release of radioactive materials and further contamination of air, soil and water, other than somehow "entomb" the reactors (a.k.a. Chernobyl solution). Koide reiterates his view that the corium (he says "melted fuel" and "melted core" in the interview for lay people, but it is melted fuel, and anything else that melted with the fuel inside the RPV) may have already escaped the Containment Vessel in the Reactor 1. Following is my notes as I jotted down the salient points Koide made in the interview: (Assuming that TEPCO is telling the truth) the worst-case scenario of a hydrogen explosion inside the reactor caused by the melted fuel seems to have been avoided. I believe the Reactor Pressure Vessel has a large hole, not the small holes that TEPCO says. TEPCO cites the pressure and the temperature data as the reasons to believe the melted fuel still stays inside the RPV. However, I wonder if the pressure and the temperature data of the Reactor 1 is accurate. After all, the data on the water level was completely wrong. That much water has leaked (4,000 tons in the reactor building basement) and yet TEPCO says there's still pressure inside the RPV. It is impossible, given the structure of the reactor. There is no definite data as to whether there is any water in the Containment Vessel. Considering the reactor building basement is flooded with water, I think it is possible that the melted fuel already damaged the Containment Vessel. Outside the Containment Vessel, what's left as containment is the concrete foundation of the building. In order to have a reactor in "cold shutdown", you need to have the RPV intact so that the cooling water can circulate. No point in talking about cold shutdown when we don't even know whether the fuel is still inside the reactor. We're in the uncharted territory that we enter for the first time ever since the human race started to use nuclear power. As to whether the radioactive materials are going to be released into the atmosphere [from the meltdown and breach of RPV and Containment Vessel], I don't think it is likely as of now. The concrete foundation of the reactor building may have sustained some damage, but as a whole I don't think it is completely broken. I cannot properly assess the possibility of the corium melting through the concrete foundation and reaching the water table. If that should happen, the radioactive materials will flow into the ground water and contaminate the ocean even more. As to the the corium, I think the inside of the corium is not solid even if there's water in the reactor. The Suppression Chamber in the reactor building basement is torus-shaped. The location where the corium may have dropped is the center of the torus, and it is concrete. The thing to worry about is how far down the concrete the corium will go. The water circulation system using water in the building proposed by TEPCO is tantamount to admitting that the Containment Vessel is broken. It is a much more serious situation than I envisioned, and there's no other way to cool [the corium] other than the one proposed by TEPCO. [Koide was proposing a system that circulate inside the Containment Vessel back into the RPV, as he had assumed correctly that the RPV had been breached.] However, if the corium goes into the concrete, no point in talking about circulating water to cool. There will be nothing you can do. The only way may be to entomb the whole building in a concrete coffin. I suspect that TEPCO's "roadmap" was created by the TEPCO headquarters under political pressure, and not by the TEPCO people in Fukushima I Nuke Plant who struggle everyday to contain the situation. If anything, the "roadmap" should be created by them, not by the headquarters. According to TEPCO's data, even now the fuel rods in the Reactors 2 and 3 are soaked in water up to half the height. Comparing Chernobyl and Fukushima, Fukushima is still on-going. There is a possibility of further hydrogen explosion, and it is still possible that Fukushima exceeds Chernobyl in terms of magnitude of the disaster. For those of you who understand Japanese, here's the interview: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9JSXVtNpkM&feature=player_em bedded If you are curious about this maverick nuclear researcher, here's a good interview of him done in 2007 (translated from original Japanese). Koide entered the field of nuclear science full of hope for the peaceful use of nuclear technology in 1968, only to see the reality two years later when he saw Onagawa Nuke Plant being forced upon the residents and understood why. Ever since, he has continued to research nuclear energy as an opponent of nuclear energy. It looks like the worst isn't over yet, will it be good management or just good luck and radiated human bodies that will make this monster safe. Bob Foolin Around |
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LightLED Newbie  Joined: 14/02/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 9 |
The biggest problem of nuclear energy (and solar power for that matter) is that they proliferated before maturing. Nuclear energy was used before it was safe, while solar was proliferated before being cost-efficient. Light upgrades Life with LED Light Bulbs. |
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| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi Ledlight All things take time to develop and some accidents on the way to sort them out however the consequences of a nuke accident isn't going to compare with a broken solar panel. On the cost of solar when I started fooling around with it a cost of $15 a watt was the norm and that was 30 years ago when a dollar was worth four times in real terms than now. Noe at $2 to $2.50 a watt in out inflated dollar makes them reasonable but it is possible to reduce that more in the future. Also it would be a good idea to put your add for Led globes in the for sale section rather than getting on the wrong side of administration. All the best Bob Foolin Around |
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fillm Guru Joined: 10/02/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 730 |
Bob, Yes , I totaly agree, and Its about time solar started to be at a reasonable cost, I think there is going to be more downward pressure on $ per Watt, the solar craze that the country is in at present will slow down as the solar rebate gets wound back which hopfully will bring in more competitave prices to keep the industry going. LED lighting is still way out of the reach of most and in my opinion the light is not as natural as halogen. I have switched over most of my 50w halogens to IRC Halogens, which use 20% less for the same output, but I must say I am addicted to its light, compared to a warm LED . Advertising in your signiture- Thats Novel- PhillM ...Oz Wind Engineering..Wind Turbine Kits 500W - 5000W ~ F&P Dual Kits ~ GOE222Blades- Voltage Control Parts ------- Tower kits |
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| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi Phil I agree that led lighting isn't the bees knees but it is better than nothing or a flickering candle our grandparents had, no doubt it will improve in time, I have some 1 watt leds that look promising with a filter lens. For the time a solar panel lasts and the long term power it produces they are really viable now compared to years ago, but I still think our life style is part of the problem as we expect to be the same convenience as on the grid and that means oversize arrays. I will just add another mill. All the best Bob Foolin Around |
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Gizmo Admin Group  Joined: 05/06/2004 Location: AustraliaPosts: 5116 |
BERLIN – Europe's economic powerhouse, Germany, announced plans Monday to abandon nuclear energy over the next 11 years, outlining an ambitious strategy in the wake of Japan's Fukushima disaster to replace atomic power with renewable energy sources. http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110530/ap_on_bi_ge/eu_germany_n uclear_power This will start a wave of change across Europe. Pat on the back for the Germans. Europe is taking the lead on renewable power, if we could just convince our idiot vote grabbing USA and Australian governments to have some balls and accept change, we would be able to catch up. Glenn The best time to plant a tree was twenty years ago, the second best time is right now. JAQ |
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mac46 Guru Joined: 07/02/2008 Location: United StatesPosts: 412 |
Everyone, Finely, someone has come to the realization about the devestation that can occure when things go wrong with necular power production. In my humble openion they have no business useing it if they can't figure out what to do with the waste/byproducts, and spent fuel. Just my 2 cents. .....Mac46 I'm just a farmer |
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| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
If you have been following the events surrounding the unfolding Fukushima Daiichi nuclear catastrophe here on NaturalNews over the past several months, you are already likely aware that it is now considered by some to be the worst industrial disaster the world has ever seen, and one that will continue to worsen in the coming months and years ahread. However, according to a recent New York Times (NYT) article, another severely damaged nuclear plant 300 miles from Fukushima could supersede it, should current efforts there to fix a major accident fail. The Monju prototype fast-breeder reactor, located directly over an earthquake fault line near Tsuruga, Japan, lies on the opposite coast of Japan's crippled Fukushima plant. Last August, a 3.3-ton fuel relay device broke and fell off into the reactor's inner core, which severed access to its plutonium and uranium fuel rods. Experts have repeatedly tried to remove the device and fix the damage, but all efforts thus far have failed. The Monju plant had also been shut down for 14 years following a massive fire in 1995, a nuclear accident that was considered to be the worst one Japan had ever seen, that is until the devastating earthquake and tsunami hit Fukushima back in March. Monju has basically been plagued with problems since it was first built, and because it is "fast-breeder" design, it has the potential to become far worse than Fukushima in the event of another major disaster. According to Hideyuki Ban, co-director of the Citizens' Nuclear Information Center (CNIC), a Japanese nuclear public interest group, the Monju reactor uses highly deadly plutonium fuel, and even if officials do even up effectively removing the lodged fuel device and fixing the damage, restarting the plant could be catastrophic. "Let's say they make this fix, which is very complicated," said Ban to the NYT. "The rest of the reactor remains highly dangerous. And an accident at Monju would have catastrophic consequences beyond what we are seeing at Fukushima." The plant is also located right on a major fault line, which makes the situation even more precarious. Back in the US, at least two nuclear reactors in Nebraska are now threatened by rising Missouri River flood waters. As of Monday, June 20, 2011, both reactors are in a state of "Notification of Unusual Event" (http://www.naturalnews.com/032750_n...). Sources for this story include: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/18/w... Foolin Around |
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| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Level of radiation, what is safe, the Javanese government is allowing much higher concentration of radiation than in the Ukraine. Radiation in Japan: 60 Becquerels/Kg Cesium from Eggs in Fukushima (Video-clip added) From TV Asahi's "Hodo Station" on July 26, in the segment that discusses the lifetime limit of 100 millisieverts radiation. A chicken farmer in Kawamata-machi in Fukushima Prefecture has brought his eggs to a volunteer testing station in Fukushima City. After 20 minutes of testing, 60 becquerels/kg of radioactive cesium is detected from the eggs. Disappointed, the farmer says, "I don't know what to say to my customers. It's much lower than the provisional safety limit in Japan, but if I compare the number to the safety limit in Ukraine it is extraordinary..." The reporter asks the farmer, "What is the safety limit in Ukraine?" 6 becquerels/kg, he tells the reporter. The man who runs the station says, "For these farmers, the provisional safety limit in Japan is just too loose." Kawamata-machi is 47 kilometers northwest of Fukushima I Nuke Plant. The Japanese government's mishandling and concealing the radioactive fallout information has resulted in radioactive water, vegetables, fish, mushroom, beef, hay, pork, manure, compost, and now eggs. And the farmers like this chicken farmer who clearly wants to sell only "safe" eggs to his customers are at a loss. To the chicken farmer, 60 becquerels/kg was just too high to sell his eggs in good conscience. http://ex-skf.blogspot.com/2011/07/radiation-in-japan-60-bec querelskg.html Foolin Around |
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| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
MORE BAD NEWS FOR JAPAN 
"Radiation levels at Japan's Fukushima nuclear power plant suddenly rose to more than six times the highest levels they'd ever reached before now. And, of course, there isn't a hint of it in the mainstream media. TEPCO, the company that owns the plant, reports today that radiation levels over 10,000 millisieverts per hour have been registered on the second floor of reactor one. How much more, we don't know. Geiger counters can't measure more than 10,000 millisieverts an hour! They say that they have restricted access to the room. But what is likely to happen to the workers who were there? The maximum allowed for reactor employees is now 250 millisieverts—an amount that was increased from 100 millisieverts for no medical reason. The situation at Fukushima is getting worse. The improvements appear to be mostly cosmetic. And the whole thing is being covered up. Some information leaks out, but mainstream media doesn't touch it, spins it, or buries it. In Dahr Jamail's excellent interview, Al Gundersen, former senior vice president in the nuclear industry, states: "Fukushima is the biggest industrial catastrophe in the history of mankind. [and further says] With Three Mile Island and Chernobyl, and now with Fukushima, you can pinpoint the exact day and time they started. But they never end." No Plan to Plug Leaks: To make matters even worse, TEPCO's recently updated plan for resolving the disaster no longer includes any reference to plugging the holes and cracks in the containment vessels of the reactors. And that means there's really no plan to resolve this mess! The effects are spreading throughout the world. It is almost certainly the worst nuclear disaster ever known. The Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombings happened in, literally, a flash. The radiation was all released at once—yet those events resulted in massive suffering and long term increases in disease and deformities. What could we be facing in Fukushima? As this slow-motion disaster develops, news of the spread of radiation leaks out. Fukushima radiation has virtually blanketed the world, and is contaminating the ocean. The Japanese government's response to the hugely increased radiation at the plant? So far, silence—except to assure people that radiation levels around the plant are now two-millionths of what was recorded at the peak of the disaster. Problem After Problem After... Japan, the epicenter of this radiation quake, gets hit with one blow after another—and the solutions seem to be to hide what's happening or pretend it's really not so bad. Their solution for 1,500 tons of radioactive sludge from the reactor plant? Since it's illegal to bury anything that radioactive, they're considering using it as garden soil! By the way, this stuff wasn't found on the Fukushima plant. It was found in sewage treatment plants all over eastern Japan. Worse, they were burning it, resulting in radioactive clouds of ash that spread far and wide, including over Tokyo. Fertilizer in Japan is now assumed to be contaminated with radiation. Compost shipped from Tochigi Prefecture, south of Fukushima Prefecture, was found to be contaminated. Therefore, local governments are being taught how to test fertilizer and compost for cesium radiation and no compost can be made from fallen leaves, which may be contaminated. Mushrooms grown indoors 30-40 miles from the reactor are contaminated by radiation. That means indoor radiation is higher than what's the government says exists outdoors. Contaminated beef was released to market after the hides were rubbed and checked for radiation, but without tests on the meat. The evacuation area is nowhere near adequate in size. Even 50 miles from the Fukushima plant is not safe. Lab reports done privately are ignored. The horrors of the Fukushima disaster go on and on, with no end in sight. Foolin Around |
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vasi Guru Joined: 23/03/2007 Location: RomaniaPosts: 1697 |
This is really a nightmare! It would be possible some how to cover everything with Pb? With worldwide contribution? You just couldn't let them die, Japan is a good ally of democratic world... Hobbit name: Togo Toadfoot of Frogmorton Elvish name: Mablung Miriel Beyound Arduino Lang |
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| Gizmo Admin Group Joined: 05/06/2004 Location: AustraliaPosts: 5116 |
Even plain old concrete or dirt will do. But the problem is whats going on inside the reactor, you just cant stick it in a box and hide it under the bed. Being so close to the coast they are going to have water contamination, both ground and sea, for decades. I can bet sales of fish have gone down. There is some good from this though. Japan has now decided to become nuclear free, it will take time, but it will happen. And I dont think we will see a new nuclear reactor in the free world in the future, the people wont allow it. Glenn The best time to plant a tree was twenty years ago, the second best time is right now. JAQ |
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| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi Glenn The problem I see is that memory of the public fade and if the commercial system promotes cheap power and reduces an inflated electricity cost by a few percent the mindless majority will be won over. The long term release of pollutants in the case of non containment could wipe out a 200 KLM radius according to some authorities, and long term effects far worse than the two bombs dropper where most of the active materials where dissipated in the explosion, whereas this reactor is sitting like a festering sore for many years to come and putting into jeopardy the other active materials in the area. It would be a wonderful thing if it was a wake up call for humanity, but I look at the commercial investment by large corporations as being the real risk. All the best Bob Foolin Around |
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| electrondady1 Senior Member  Joined: 12/02/2009 Location: CanadaPosts: 208 |
if at some point during the decision making process the peoples wishes and concerns had been taken into account it would be one thing. but the decisions are made in back rooms behind closed doors and the influence of lobbyists is the deciding factor. i would say that very soon tepco will go bankrupt to avoid liability. their insurance companies will pay a fraction of the cost and then they will go out of business as well. it's a paper loss. in the end it's the people that will pay for the clean up. ether through increased insurance premiums or increased tax levy's the overall century's long cost of the contamination will never be addressed. |
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| electrondady1 Senior Member Joined: 12/02/2009 Location: CanadaPosts: 208 |
last week the salmon run started in British Columbia . the department of fisheries is monitoring for possible radioactive contamination as a result of the Japanese disaster. |
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| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
it will be very interesting to see if there is a radioactive signature as there has been in Japan and to what level in the fish as compared to former readings. Bob Foolin Around |
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| domwild Guru Joined: 16/12/2005 Location: AustraliaPosts: 873 |
Just read in the news that ancient and mothballed coal-fired power stations are being resurrected in Germany as Germany is going to switch off most nuclear power stations. A few years ago with a socialist/green coalition this was being discussed but then rejected due to the "freeze in the dark" possibility. Now Germany is begging France to sell it nuclear energy and from Austria they are asking for hydro energy (rivers and alpine). The Marshall Plan after WWII cleverly allowed Austria to build a lot of hydros along the river Danube and ensured a communist takeover was stalled following mass unemployment Looks like we are doomed if we do and doomed if we don't. Global warming or nuclear disaster? Re Thorium: Lynas in WA is processing its ore (rare earths) in Malaysia and the Malays have worked out those ores are slightly radioactive and that has led to protests. Coal and Thorium leads to protests. Taxation as a means of achieving prosperity is like a man standing inside a bucket trying to lift himself up. Winston Churchill |
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| electrondady1 Senior Member Joined: 12/02/2009 Location: CanadaPosts: 208 |
geothermal, that's the ticket. |
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| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi Electrodady I agree on the geothermal but it is hard to shove all the politicians down the bore at once as the fight all the time. Bob Foolin Around |
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| electrondady1 Senior Member Joined: 12/02/2009 Location: CanadaPosts: 208 |
i recall all those incredible volcano photos posted recently. there is a lot of energy being released. why can't that be harvested? it may do some good. perhaps, once a year, unpopular politicians and c.e.o's could be mandated into jumping into the volcanoes to ensure good energy output. |
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