Home
JAQForum Ver 19.10.1
Log In or Join  
Active Topics
Local Time 09:59 19 Oct 2019 Privacy Policy
Jump to

Notice. New forum software under development. It's going to miss a few functions and look a bit ugly for a while, but I'm working on it full time now as the old forum was too unstable. Couple days, all good. If you notice any issues, please contact me.

Forum Index : Electronics : Stock Std Warpinverter

     Page 1 of 11    
Author Message
renewableMark

Guru

Joined: 09/12/2017
Location: Australia
Posts: 1331
Posted: 10:49am 13 May 2019
Copy link to clipboard 

OK, I'm building a standard control board for the cascade Warpinverter.

Tony what is the part C19?
I can't find it on the list.

Also c17 is listed twice, once as a 1uf tantalum and once as a 100nf ceramic.
I'm thinking that was a typo and the c17 tantalum should have been c19 as c19 is polarised on the board.



Cheers Caveman Mark
Off grid eastern Melb
 
Tinker

Guru

Joined: 07/11/2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 1904
Posted: 12:13pm 13 May 2019
Copy link to clipboard 

Mark, you have rev 1.1 control board there.
I have the original, rev 1.0 board.
That cap, C19, is marked as C25 there and is 1uF tantalum. Its across the 5V output of the DC/DC module so I guess its not that critical.

Below is a pic of the board I have.




Klaus
 
Warpspeed
Guru

Joined: 09/08/2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 2755
Posted: 07:26am 14 May 2019
Copy link to clipboard 

The original Step Inverter board revision 1.0 was only ever built as an initial prototype for myself to test some rather unusual ideas that I had.

I built myself one board, and to my amazement it not only worked very first go, it worked very well indeed. So I loaded a second board to use as a spare, out of the five that were made. And that was the end of it as far as I was concerned.

I had a working Warpverter, and I was now off grid with zero problems, and really happy.

However there were some minor details in that prototype that could have been better, but after all it was a very first initial prototype.

The first mistake was that I decided to add an extra 1uF tantalum capacitor to the +5v supply when I was laying out the board.
I made that C25, but it should really have been C19 as the next component designator in sequence after C18. There was also some issue with C17, but cannot now remember exactly what that was.

Second mistake was the polarity of C1 which has no + sign on the silk screen.

Third mistake was that the hole sizes for the screw terminal blocks were made far too large. None of these mistakes stopped it from working, and I just soldered in the components without giving it any further thought.

Suddenly and quite unexpectedly people were asking for boards, so I just sent out the revision 1.0 boards that I already had, with a correct bill of materials that listed C25 as 1uF and figuring that people would work out which way around C1 had to go.

I then ordered ten more boards revision 1.1 with the three errors fixed.
C25 became C19 as it should have been in the first place, and is a 1uF tantalum.
Whatever the issue was with C17 being duplicated was also fixed.
C1 gained the missing + on the silk screen.
And the hole sizes for the screw terminal blocks were reduced in size.

All the tracks and pads are fine. All of the issues really only concern component designators on the silk screen (and hole sizes).

I still have a few of these rev 1.1 boards and pre programmed proms available if anyone is interested.
The nano boards would be a better long term solution, but if you want to get something fairly basic working initially, this is arguably the very simplest way to get started.


Edited by Warpspeed 2019-05-17
Cheers, Tony.
 
renewableMark

Guru

Joined: 09/12/2017
Location: Australia
Posts: 1331
Posted: 06:28am 19 Jun 2019
Copy link to clipboard 


Almost finished the torroids.

No1 (225v)is actually one which was all ready to go into another Madinverter.
That just needs the primary wire taken off and re done with 35mm2
No 1 needs 128 turns of 4 secondaries of 2mm2 and 25 turns of 1 35mm2 primary.
This is double stacked 3kw cores.
I did however manage to get a hold of some more 3kw toroids, so that one may still get put aside for another Madinverter and wind another identical one for the Warp unit (but different primary winding).

No2 (75v) is a 2kw core.
104 turns of 4 secondaries of 2mm2
61 turns of 13.5mm2 primary.

Klaus, I think you are doing something similar here, be warned it is a tight fit.
This is all I had left.



No3 (25v) is another 2kw core.
34 turns of 4 secondaries 2mm2.
60 turns of 2 primaries 2mm2

No4 (8.33v) Almost finished doing the primary.
1.5 kw core.
17 turns of 4 secondaries 2mm2
90 turns of 1 primary 2mm2.

Now onto the boards.
Edited by renewableMark 2019-06-20
Cheers Caveman Mark
Off grid eastern Melb
 
mackoffgrid

Guru

Joined: 13/03/2017
Location: Australia
Posts: 396
Posted: 07:06am 19 Jun 2019
Copy link to clipboard 

Good one Mark.

8mm2 secondary I see, what are you going to rate this inverter at?

Cheers
Andrew
 
Warpspeed
Guru

Joined: 09/08/2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 2755
Posted: 07:28am 19 Jun 2019
Copy link to clipboard 

All the secondaries are 8mm squared, good for a nominal 32 continuous amps.
At 235v that is 7.5Kw continuous rating for all the transformers combined.

With a big enough battery, and enough mosfets, its going to be a real monster.
Cheers, Tony.
 
renewableMark

Guru

Joined: 09/12/2017
Location: Australia
Posts: 1331
Posted: 07:52am 19 Jun 2019
Copy link to clipboard 

Yep, what Warp said.

I'm good at following instructions, not designing stuff.

1000 AH of battery it should be a bloody ripper.

So far just have the little two fet boards for testing.

I'll need to talk someone into helping out with the bigger fet boards.
Cheers Caveman Mark
Off grid eastern Melb
 
nickskethisniks
Regular Member

Joined: 17/10/2017
Location: Belgium
Posts: 80
Posted: 08:20am 19 Jun 2019
Copy link to clipboard 

Wow, that's a strong table! 😁

 
Tinker

Guru

Joined: 07/11/2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 1904
Posted: 10:33am 19 Jun 2019
Copy link to clipboard 

  renewableMark said  

Klaus, I think you are doing something similar here, be warned it is a tight fit.
This is all I had left.




Yes, I'm fully aware about tight fits , I had to wreck my first winding attempt because I ran out of hole space .
So, rearranged the transformers to be similar than your N0 1, then use the 2.5Kw core with the troublesome 85mm hole and modify it for No 2 transformer. It has now a 96mm hole with the removed steel placed on the outside, this cost 50mm sq of core area which = one extra wire turn.

I will use a smaller secondary, 6.8mm sq total, good enough for my battery and usage.

I also plan to use enameled primary wire, not sheathed cable like you.

Just have to get the tiny toroid core ready yet, then the winding fun can begin.


A word of warning for those wannabe warpinverter builders:

1. a set of PCB's does *not* make you a warpinverter - or any other home built inverter type for that matter.

2. these projects stand and fall by procuring the correct transformer(s).

3. I strongly recommend to any newbies tackling the transformer first, before buying *any* other parts.
Its not as easy as it may appear by looking at the pictures from those who have been there, done that.
While a warpinverter scales up easily its probably a waste of time and effort to build one smaller than 4KW total power IMO, too difficult to wind sufficient turns around a small core.
And the big double stack core for my warpinverter weighs around 20kg which has to be wrestled over and over on the workbench to wind a few hundred turns of wire onto it.

That requires tenacity, knowhow, skill and patience to see through, beside requiring a heap of copper wire plus the cores.
Note that I did not mention enthusiasm - its all sheer drudgery . Unless you can afford to pay somebody to do it for you .

Only those who successfully complete and get to test their transformers to run reliably are worthy to proceed to the next (purchased PCB) stage of that inverter .
Klaus
 
mackoffgrid

Guru

Joined: 13/03/2017
Location: Australia
Posts: 396
Posted: 11:47am 19 Jun 2019
Copy link to clipboard 

Tinker, I can't argue with what you said.

As I'm getting ready to take my Warpverter to it's new home so I can do proper load testing, I've already designed my next 3 phase 100 volt warpVerter, which I hope to start building soon. A thought crossed my mind this afternoon, could I design a "little 2 kW" Warpverter as a backup. I would look to using a professional toroid winder for the two small transformers. Yes, a small Oz-inverter may be the more appropriate choice, we'll see.

Mark, 1000Ah @ 48volt, awesome

Mark, between, firstly Tony, Tinker and myself, you'll get your big FET boards going. You need to settle on a mechanical design and go from there. Some points I have are:

1. Using Heatsink as the Battery bus and or Transformer outputs. I have done this in my first, 26V warpverter but I'm leaning to NOT doing so in future. No big reason as yet, I'm just coming around to liking the idea isolating the FETs onto one big HEATsink.

2. Terminal blocks for FET connection. I'm not doing this, and the higher currents at 26volts makes this prudent I believe. I am attracted to the idea. Can make assembly a whole lot easier.

Cheers
AndrewEdited by mackoffgrid 2019-06-20
 
Tinker

Guru

Joined: 07/11/2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 1904
Posted: 12:16pm 19 Jun 2019
Copy link to clipboard 

3 phase warpinverter Andrew,sounds intriguing. When I was an apprentice (electrical fitter) they made large 3 phase transformers there. The core looked like the E I types but each leg of equal size and windings on each.
Where are you getting cores like that from?
Or are you planning to wind all 3 windings on one toroid? Now, that looks like a real challenge .
Klaus
 
mackoffgrid

Guru

Joined: 13/03/2017
Location: Australia
Posts: 396
Posted: 12:26pm 19 Jun 2019
Copy link to clipboard 

Klaus, Three inverters >6kW ea, twelve transformers. They will be able to function independently or together as a 3 phase inverter.


cheers
AndrewEdited by mackoffgrid 2019-06-20
 
renewableMark

Guru

Joined: 09/12/2017
Location: Australia
Posts: 1331
Posted: 12:47pm 19 Jun 2019
Copy link to clipboard 

I logged back in to say something, but my little fella felt sick and vommed everywhere......... yuk.

Just finished cleaning up, but forgot what I wanted to say.

Oh well it will keep.

Edit, remembered.

These are the caps I got.


Edited by renewableMark 2019-06-21
Cheers Caveman Mark
Off grid eastern Melb
 
Warpspeed
Guru

Joined: 09/08/2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 2755
Posted: 02:36am 20 Jun 2019
Copy link to clipboard 

Here is the data sheet:
https://pdf1.alldatasheet.com/datasheet-pdf/view/957108/KEMET/ALS70A513NF100.html

About four of those might be a good start, with the excellent Klaus type of layout.

Cheers, Tony.
 
BenandAmber
Guru

Joined: 16/02/2019
Location: United States
Posts: 731
Posted: 06:32am 20 Jun 2019
Copy link to clipboard 

Wow I like those caps

Way too expensive for me though I'd have to save for yearsEdited by BenandAmber 2019-06-21
 
renewableMark

Guru

Joined: 09/12/2017
Location: Australia
Posts: 1331
Posted: 07:50am 20 Jun 2019
Copy link to clipboard 

Warp, I didn't want to keep getting Macks thread off track so replied here.

The unit really probably doesn't need to take up a heap of room.
I like Macks design, but he clearly is not lacking in space.

If you think about it, all we need is enough heatsink to cool for your planned power, and fans will help.
Then you just have 3 extra torroids.

Wonder if a vertical metal locker could be used?

Plenty of area to bring in air and extract air, heavy torroids could go in the bottom to stabilise the enclosure and the fet boards up higher.

The heatsinks with fet boards could be mounted to the door to allow for easy access.


Edited by renewableMark 2019-06-21
Cheers Caveman Mark
Off grid eastern Melb
 
Warpspeed
Guru

Joined: 09/08/2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 2755
Posted: 08:49am 20 Jun 2019
Copy link to clipboard 

Yes, a vertical design like a school or gym locker should certainly work.

Stack the toroids on a simple thick steel plate, fitted with large diameter heavy duty castors. Try to keep the centre of gravity right in the middle of the four castors if you can.

All of the weight will then be down low, and well supported, and fairly thin metalwork should then easily support the weight of the inverter plus heat sink. The inverter will also then be at a convenient working height to allow really good access and visibility.

A swing out door could also make the basis of an excellent swing out inverter.

As the inverter will be generating 230v anyway, a 230v barrel type air blower to cool it might blow a lot more air with a lot less noise than a 12v computer fan, even a very big one.

Cheers, Tony.
 
Tinker

Guru

Joined: 07/11/2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 1904
Posted: 09:52am 20 Jun 2019
Copy link to clipboard 

  renewableMark said   These[/URL] are the caps I got.




Good buy Mark and just a little more expensive than the ones I got.

Beware, the terminal screws might be an American gauge thread (mine were) and they also were too short for 6mm bus bars. Fortunately I had some gauge screws from a junked Yankee computer that fitted.
The thread looks like 5mm metric, try a M5 screw by hand, if it does not go in all the way *easily* don't force it, use the correct screw.
These caps are too expensive to wreck the terminals .

The data sheet might tell you what type screws - I did not look there.
Klaus
 
renewableMark

Guru

Joined: 09/12/2017
Location: Australia
Posts: 1331
Posted: 10:00am 20 Jun 2019
Copy link to clipboard 

Yeah, if you look down the page, it has related parts, 5mm screw is listed.

Thanks for the heads up though, be nasty to stuff them up, they'll need a good connection.
Cheers Caveman Mark
Off grid eastern Melb
 
Warpspeed
Guru

Joined: 09/08/2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 2755
Posted: 02:43pm 20 Jun 2019
Copy link to clipboard 

Kemet are European, so 5mm for certain.
But beware, the terminal posts are aluminium and the internal threads fairly fragile.

Cheers, Tony.
 
     Page 1 of 11    
© JAQ Software 2019