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Forum Index : Microcontroller and PC projects : More dangers of A.I.
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Grogster Admin Group  Joined: 31/12/2012 Location: New ZealandPosts: 9610 |
This scene is from the movie AUTOMATA, and is a superb scene: Scene The bit I liked the most is when the fella says they stopped being able to understand the robots they had built. There was something similar to that in the last few years when a couple of A.I. computers that some people were playing with, started talking to each other in a language that the Humans could not understand. They pulled the plug on those machines rather quickly as that is sort of scary stuff. Smoke makes things work. When the smoke gets out, it stops! |
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Gizmo Admin Group Joined: 05/06/2004 Location: AustraliaPosts: 5119 |
This is a topic I've been worried about for some time. First I think we need a way to distinguish the types of AI. You have the AI that will drive our cars and fly our planes, which I'm for and can see great benefits in. Then you have the type of AI that's a "general intelligence" like us humans, and that scares me. The general intelligence is a true thinking AI, that could become self aware and as capable as our own intelligence. This is the sort of thing Google and Facebook are playing with, and people like Bill Gates and Elon Musk are warning us against, rightly so. The problem with a AI like this is it will be self aware, understand its own limitations and how to improve them, and understand how we think. It could, and would, very quickly become smarter that us, and therefore know how to manipulate us to achieve its goals. Lets face it, humans are easily fooled. A AI would look at our religions, environment, history, and quickly decide us humans dont know whats best for us. What it would do after that depends on the resources, or easily fooled human minds, that are available to it. Remember humans took millions of years to develop our intelligence, but a computer AI could double its intelligence overnight with a software update. For us to comprehend such a intelligence would be impossible, like reading poetry to a pet dog, the dog can never understand it. Some good movies are Ex Machina, where a AI in a attractive female form flirts with its human opponent in a turing test, as a means to escape. And of course the Matrix series of movies, and the new Westworld series. Trailer for Ex Machima https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYGzRB4Pnq8 The best time to plant a tree was twenty years ago, the second best time is right now. JAQ |
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| isochronic Guru  Joined: 21/01/2012 Location: AustraliaPosts: 689 |
I don't know the details, but there was report that the trading algorithms used to trade shares etc had learnt to exploit the relative slowness of human-processed transactions for advantage. It seems to me that companies are already a legal form of artificial life, with no morality or conscience. They have (I forget the exact words) the same legal standing "as a natural person". It surely is time for the law to be brought up to date, to protect humans from other entities. |
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| Grogster Admin Group Joined: 31/12/2012 Location: New ZealandPosts: 9610 |
Another great scene from AUTOMATA: Scene. This movie is well worth taking a look, for anyone who likes SciFi movies. Smoke makes things work. When the smoke gets out, it stops! |
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| 5bar Newbie  Joined: 10/07/2014 Location: AustraliaPosts: 16 |
Perhaps it is time to apply Asimov's 3 laws of robotics? I can count to 31 on one hand |
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| isochronic Guru Joined: 21/01/2012 Location: AustraliaPosts: 689 |
I am wondering, how the laws on slavery affect this. It is against the law in most places to "own" another person or their possessions or land. So it should be illegal to own a conscious AI robot or its produce.  |
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| Grogster Admin Group Joined: 31/12/2012 Location: New ZealandPosts: 9610 |
See Star Trek: The Next Generation episode The Measure Of A Man. Link. Part of that is addressed in that episode, but the main problem is that Data from ST, was happy co-existing with Humans, and to actually take their orders. He strived to be MORE Human. A robot like in this movie or the Terminator scenario, decides it is better off WITHOUT Humans, and therefore sets about ways to get rid of them. Smoke makes things work. When the smoke gets out, it stops! |
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| seco61 Senior Member  Joined: 15/06/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 205 |
And the old (and probably one of the first) films about computers becoming self aware and taking over - and of course their original responsibility was to control all the nuclear warheads... "Colossus: The Forbin Project" Regards Gerard (vk3cg/vk3grs) |
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Chopperp Guru Joined: 03/01/2018 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1097 |
Yes, I remember that one & have on times over the years, wondered if there ever was a sequel. The one thing I couldn't understand, if I remember correctly, was that the rouge computers could process & analyse video/vision before learning audio. ChopperP |
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MicroBlocks Guru Joined: 12/05/2012 Location: ThailandPosts: 2209 |
I ordered a electronic piano for my sons birthday a few weeks ago. After playing on it a few days it broke. I ordered it on internet and after getting a document with a return address on it that I had to stick on the box, I also drew a cross on the original sticker with my delivery address on it. Dropped it of at the post office and got a trace code. The trace code gives a 'your package is delayed, delivery tomorrow' for already a few days. Then this morning a package arrived, my son accepted it as he was happy to get the new one. But his joy was over quickly as it was exactly the same box I send back. The scanner in the sorting center probably read the sticker with the cross over it and send it back to me. The thing is that the post office was proud on their sorting center as an A.I. improved delivery speeds. They worked on it for several years. The A.I is of course just a fancy barcode scanner which was able to read the original barcode and decided to ignore the big with pen drawn cross, it also decided that the other sticker with the right barcode does not have to be read as one is enough, right... :) A.I is in my opinion still decades away. Until then it just fumbles along with collateral damage that will be ignored. Microblocks. Build with logic. |
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| Tinine Guru Joined: 30/03/2016 Location: United KingdomPosts: 1646 |
I am more concerned with G.S. The Genuine Stupidity that I encounter every day. Some people should not be anywhere near 3-phase AC. Client's in-house "electrical engineer" decided to help me troubleshoot a Brushless Motor Driver..."Yeah, I have one of the probes on negative"...."Negative? What bloody negative?....That's NEUTRAL, dumba$$!" "Electrical engineer" (yeah, he'd learned how to strip insulation off a piece of wire) |
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| Malibu Senior Member Joined: 07/07/2018 Location: AustraliaPosts: 260 |
An interesting discussion on a subject that's always fascinated me  An episode that deals with AI very well, plus there's another good one that brings up the point of WHERE the line actually is between machine code and AI gets a look in with TNG episode - The Quality of Life Another good one is I, Robot which deals with Asimov's laws, and how VIKI interprets the 3 laws to protect humans. Scary stuff when you sit down and think about it... I for one find the technical side of AI fantastic, but I'm yet to be convinced it's a good thing  John |
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| Grogster Admin Group Joined: 31/12/2012 Location: New ZealandPosts: 9610 |
Indeed. Correct terms are important. Black wire is usually negative in DC supply systems, so that is most likely where he got that from. I also find it a bit concerning how MANY young sparkies just out of training don't recognise the dangers of a neutral wire shock risk. They think that the neutral is perfectly safe to touch as it is bonded to earth, and it is only the phase you have to worry about. Now, I am a TECHNICIAN by trade and not technically a sparkie, but even I know of the dangers of the neutral wire. [Quote=Link below]The hot and neutral wires are interchangeable as far as the equipment is concerned. Both are power carrying wires. One of the power carrying wires is grounded at the source for reasons of safety (see the appendix: "the origin of the 3-wire system"). The only reason why the two wires are differentiated (hot vs. neutral) is to identify which of the wires is grounded (the neutral wire).[/Quote] Read about neutral shocks... So, if you get in the way of the neutral wire on a live circuit, you will certainly know about it! 'I'm not touching the phase, so I can play with these neutrals as they are at earth potential.' - that kind of false-logic. It somewhat worries me that this does not seem to be getting hammered into some of the newbies during their training....Smoke makes things work. When the smoke gets out, it stops! |
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| Malibu Senior Member Joined: 07/07/2018 Location: AustraliaPosts: 260 |
Prior to around 1980'ish, the Australian colour codes were Red, Yellow and Blue for actives, Green for earth and a Black neutral. There was very little DC control in industry at the time, so those colours dated back to the early days of the regulations and no one had given any thought to DC. They decided to revise the colours and changed to the current colours of Red, White and Blue actives with Green/Yellow for Earth and they kept Black as neutral in a 3 phase system, as you would find in an orange-circular cable. Here's where it gets a bit hazy... In a single phase system, the active is Brown and the neutral is Blue (green/yellow earth), as you would find in a 3-core flex. For DC, it's generally Red +'ve and Black -'ve (but not necessarily!) All colours are kind of at odds with each other when you think about it, so it starts to get a little confusing! They changed the wiring colours for a few reasons - There were more European machines coming into the country at that time, so the regulations needed to be more 'universal'. - A lot of THOSE machines had DC control wiring, so DC had to allowed for in the regulations. (An early regulation actually forbid AC and DC to be wired into the same switchboard cubical) - They also found that a lot of sparky's were colour blind and were mixing up the Red and Green wires. Interestingly, in about '84, we had a machine come in from France where all the control wiring was Black. We also had a German machine where all the control wiring was Red. The inspector nearly had a fit and wanted to make us change ALL the wiring to Aus standards! Colours for wiring is pretty hard to nail down to a strict code, so I was always taught that active is any colour except Green or black. Experience has taught me that ANY cable can bite, no matter the colour... so treat them all like they are deadly and you'll be much better off You make good points about the Neutral Grogs. In theory, neutral and earth are the same potential but it's wiser to not fiddle with any power carrying wire (Actually, neutral shocks are caused by what's called a 'loaded neutral' and is a good indication that there's a fault somewhere else in the system - either a bad MEN connection, or that an active is picked up from somewhere else [ie: another switchboard] and fed back to that particular neutral - lots of reasons, but there's a couple...) (Wow, a bit of a long one... sorry!  )John |
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| Boppa Guru Joined: 08/11/2016 Location: AustraliaPosts: 814 |
We got a similar discussion happening over at rotten cables as well LOL Throw in US machinery (black A and white N) and it gets real confusing real fast (one thing I did in the past when I was working was either change out or sleeve the wires leading to the mains connection point so they matched the Au colour code- too many sparkies hooking up would ignore the markings/connection diagram and just hook to the colours, leaving machines with switches and fuses on the N instead of the A- I suspect it just looked 'wrong' to them to have a red going to a black, and a black going to a white...) Add in French signalling equipment that I worked on as an apprentice- that had RED as the earth!!!! (admittedly it was quite old but still...) (as an apprentice, we had 110vac, 240vac single phase, 415vac 3 phase all mixed in together in the switchrooms at the railways- to make matters worse, many of the stations original lighting was 110v (as was the signalling equipment and bulbs) but they began (but never finished) converting station lighting to 240vac and swapping out the incandescents to fluros- so some lighting circuits were B/W 110, some was 240 B/W, some was 240 R/B/G...) A real clusterf.... (Oh and some UK equipment was all white wiring...(sleeved/printed numbers) so that's another to add to the list of 'let's just buy a single roll of wire and do everything in that...')- ugggh |
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| Grogster Admin Group Joined: 31/12/2012 Location: New ZealandPosts: 9610 |
Yeah, I have had to deal with those bloody awful multicore cables in the past. One black wire, and a ton of all white wires. The white wires ARE numbered, but never where you want them to be, and if you can't see the numbers, it is a real pain in the arse to sort out which white wire is which.  Smoke makes things work. When the smoke gets out, it stops! |
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| Boppa Guru Joined: 08/11/2016 Location: AustraliaPosts: 814 |
yeah, plus add in some age and the stenciling comes off, leaving you with a bunch of unmarked wires all the same colour... Oh joy... |
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CaptainBoing Guru Joined: 07/09/2016 Location: United KingdomPosts: 2170 |
quite so and it is in any trade. My youngest lad trained as a chef and he had some gnarled old graybeard as a trainer - he was golden. He had these "golden rules" that he drummed into the trainees and he still remembers the two golden rules of chefery to this day (which are 1:colour is flavour, 2:the first bite is with the eyes). This chap had retired by the time his second year came round and been replaced with some vapid pleb who simply regurgitated curriculum but little actual skill/talent. He considers himself fortunate to have learn at the feet of a time-served master while he could |
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| Tinine Guru Joined: 30/03/2016 Location: United KingdomPosts: 1646 |
Which is why I'm gonna start building wireless machine controls. The one I'm doing right now is already "distributed", via full-duplex RS422/485 but the machine is full of signal wiring. I want to have nothing but 24v running thoughout the machine (apart from the Brushless servos and 3-Phase hydraulic pump motor). Two or three junction boxes, located near to the cluster of hydraulic valves and the proximity sensors and have all signaling handled via a wireless network. I have had a wireless (BT) HMI for the past seven years and it has been very well received....now to eliminate the no-longer-identifiable spaghetti  |
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| Paul_L Guru Joined: 03/03/2016 Location: United StatesPosts: 769 |
Hey ... another peripatetic thread! Whoopie! @5bar ... I used to bump into Isaac Asimov every few months. I REALLY miss talking to him! Under the heading of is it yy/mm/dd, dd/mm/yy, or mm/dd/yy, Underwriters Labs many decades ago discovered that wires get dirty ... white was the easiest color to identify under all that dirt ... so they defined white as neutral in the states. Then they defined green as non current carrying ground a few decades later. All the other colors were left up for grabs. In three phase stuff you often see black, blue & red as the phases. Meanwhile ... over in Seattle ... back in the 1950s Boeing gave up on color coding entirely with the B377. When the 707 showed up ALL THE WIRES WERE WHITE! Kingsley had sold them on using a hot foil wire marking machine to mark the new all teflon wires. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivjwzM67XHQ They had devised a wire numbering protocol based on the chapters of the maintenance manual ... chapter 23 is communications, 34 is navigation etc., so wire number 34-096-423 would be wire number 423, in the 096 sub-system which might be vor/ils, which is in chapter 34 or navigation. IT WORKED! No more confusion determining if that is a white wire with blue + red + yellow stripes or is it a red + yellow + blue stripes. You could dig a wire out of a laced bundle, read the number, and know positively which wire you were looking at. Prior to that decision it was thought that aircraft electricians and radiomen might have to be tested for color blindness. Paul in NY |
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