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Forum Index : Solar : Advice on new solar set up for home and workshop
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Davo99 Guru Joined: 03/06/2019 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1577
Posted: 06:42am 22 Nov 2019
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No question I'm disturbed and what they put us through didn't help. TBH I regret not doing a lot more to them than I did.
Boppa Guru Joined: 08/11/2016 Location: AustraliaPosts: 814
Posted: 09:45am 22 Nov 2019
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Well you need to buy a property like mine then mate, 40 acres of secluded woodland, you can get the pliers out to your hearts content....
That's one of the things I like about this place, minimum block size (it's already been subdivided) is 40 acres, so neighbours are going to be a fair distance away anyways...
Plus I plan on putting the shed waaay down the back (which of course would increase the power installation cost even more.....) so that it would be a long way from my place, and even further from any possible new neighbours... Edited 2019-11-22 19:46 by Boppa
Warpspeed Guru Joined: 09/08/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 4406
Posted: 09:49pm 22 Nov 2019
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Just did a back of the envelope comparison.
Boppa: 400Ah x 16 cells x 3.3v = 21.12 Kwh cost 12K 1.76Wh per dollar. Warpspeed: 60Ah x 30 cells x 3.3v = 5.94 Kwh cost $3.4K 1.74Wh per dollar.
I am surprised it worked out that close, but all Trevs prices are based on amp hours regardless of physical size. So a lot of small cells (for higher voltage) or fewer larger ones make no difference in cost. Edited 2019-11-23 07:58 by WarpspeedCheers, Tony.
Davo99 Guru Joined: 03/06/2019 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1577
Posted: 12:36am 23 Nov 2019
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I'm happy enough here, the neighbours are great so I can go back to being my normal imbalanced self.
Thats one of the things I think is a travesty round here. They are throwing up ( and I use the description accurately) new estates everywhere round here are they are down to 250 sqM blocks and smaller and putting 3, mainly 4 bedroom homes on them. Across the road will be several km of cow paddocks. We are on the outer edge of sydney, there is land everywhere. WTF they have to make this BS ridiculously small blocks I'll never understand other than incompetence and greed.
In my view they are engineering future social problems. What does anyone who buys a new 4 bedroom house do with it? They fill it with kids of course. There is no where for these kids to play. Sure as hell no backyard and no street either. Went through one of these future slum hell holes the other week. Noticed people had Corollas and little Hyundais butted up against the garage door and the arse end is well hanging over the foot path. Mate who does AC wont go into these places. Says there is no where to park, even on the peoples front lawns and if he has the truck or the wagon with the trailer, there isn't room to reverse or manouver them. If he has the trailer he cannot park it so he is not across a drive way. It's moronic.
In years to come some smart arse academic will make the astounding discovery that the kids in these areas spend too much time on games and electronic devices and not enough time out in the fresh air. How will the be able to do anything else? have to alk a mile to even get a bus in these places as there is no room in the street.
What the hell is going to happen in another 15-20 years when these kids grow up and get cars I can't Imagine. Not enough room for 2 cars per house now let alone 4 or 5. Slums and crime no go zones in the making and the gubbermint allows it.
Not only here. Between Taree and Wingham there is this estate that always makes me think WTF were they thinking? It's literally a cow paddock, 10 Km from either town, they have jam packed with about 30 Houses on tiny blocks. and as I say, there is NOTHING but open land for 10 KM+ in any direction. No shops,schools... Nothing. One thing to build there but why anyone would want to live there where there is always a glut of properties for sale in the area astounds me. At first I thought it was a retirement village or something but no, all private houses.
If they want to live on top of one another, plenty of places in either town. If they want to live in the open spaces I get that but not what they have here with all maybe 300M blocks
My shed is probably 30 M from the house. I go nuts doing things in the place when I have to run back and forth to the garage 40 freaking times to get tools that I did not forsee needing the previous 20 times I had been up there. I spend more time going back and forth often than what the actual job inside takes.
If you are going to put the house and shed far away, get yourself an old ute and store all your tools in that so you can bring it down when you are doing something in the house and don't have to walk 10 Km back and forth to get the job done!
Boppa Guru Joined: 08/11/2016 Location: AustraliaPosts: 814
Posted: 02:27am 23 Nov 2019
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I actually plan on having a mobile workshop in a container, so I can work on outcalls at farms and the like... (bringing a combine harvester into town isn't really that practical lol) Takes about a minute to slide onto the tilt tray and lock down... (it's got container pins) eta yeah a mate lives in one of those suburbs on the Gold Coast- he's a pretty big lad and he had to send his son to 'mow' down between the fence and the garage wall- its too small to fit the mower in, so he has to use the whipper snipper... Crazy... Edited 2019-11-23 12:32 by Boppa
renewableMark Guru Joined: 09/12/2017 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1678
Posted: 08:55pm 23 Nov 2019
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Roger, keep in mind you need to check the local regs before deciding on what wire to use. In Vic it needs to be solar approved double insulated cable. The outside layer of this stuff is very durable and resistant to lots of things.
If you have one run for each two panels the voltage drop should be fine in most cases, you'll need to measure up and do some calcs. That's what my system got.
It means lots of cable runs and lots of conduit, but you are allowed to wire it yourself, so a bit extra in cable doesn't mean much in the scheme of things.
Price it up using the proper cable, it's not that dear at all.Cheers Caveman Mark Off grid eastern Melb
Warpspeed Guru Joined: 09/08/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 4406
Posted: 11:47pm 23 Nov 2019
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If you check the regs, you can use single insulated wire, provided it is enclosed by plastic conduit where its exposed. That counts as being doubly insulated. The panels themselves only come with single insulated wire anyway. Conduit is even more durable, and also the grey conduit is UV resistant. Where there are going to be a big bundle of many wires, its also going to end up neater in conduit.
If its in a wall cavity or otherwise inaccessible to being walked on or damaged, it can be single insulated without the conduit.Cheers, Tony.
brucedownunder2 Guru Joined: 14/09/2005 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1548
Posted: 12:15am 24 Nov 2019
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I just finished cabling my 14 panels . Lots of cable , so what I did where they sort of got a bundle ,I installed "Aussie-duct". comes in various sizes ,I choose 50x20 mm ,it has clip on lid (all plastic ) hope it will withstand the outdoors, but ,it's under the panels ,sort of , most of the way to the disconnect box ..
( one important thing I have noticed ,from work experience, don't mix the brand name of these ducts, they might not fit ).
BruceBushboy
rogerdw Guru Joined: 22/10/2019 Location: AustraliaPosts: 794
Posted: 02:06pm 24 Nov 2019
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Thanks Mark, I do need to check out the SA regs to make sure I understand what's needed.
Any panels I have fitted will go on a corrugated iron shed ... so cables will feed through the iron and travel down to the charge controller and batteries. Should be easy enough to fit due to all being accessible inside the shed.
I wonder if that includes laying inside C-section ... like the existing 240V AC wiring. That only goes inside flexible conduit when it enters or exits the C-secton channels, to protect the cables from the edges of the channel.
Yeah, I like that stuff ... at least for inside. Makes for a tidy job if it's all laid out square and vertical etc. I certainly plan to use something like that in the layout around any chargers, inverters etc.
Thanks guys.
Cheers, RogerCheers, Roger
renewableMark Guru Joined: 09/12/2017 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1678
Posted: 12:06am 25 Nov 2019
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100m roll of 4mm has gone up a bit but should still be around $160-170 My 12kw house install used 2,1/2 rolls, so it's not an earth shattering amount.
If your is going on the shed roof and pretty much straight down and across a bit you'll probably need less per panel than my install as some are on the other side of my house.
So if you put up 12kw, you'll probably do it under 2 rolls.
Also if you can try and buy new mounting hardware, it's a real pain using second hand seized up stuff, I gave up with some of it and tossed it. Bought new sh*t and bam my blood pressure went down.Cheers Caveman Mark Off grid eastern Melb
Warpspeed Guru Joined: 09/08/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 4406
Posted: 12:43am 25 Nov 2019
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Conduit is all about mechanical protection. Sometimes its metal, or more usually thermoplastic these days. C section with removable top offers excellent mechanical protection and is sold as ducting or conduit. Its much more practical, especially if you ever need to add extra wires later on.
For outside wiring you need to seriously think about ingress of water. As the old joke goes, "anything made completely waterproof usually just keeps the water in"
So a downward slope or some strategic drain holes might be worth some thought.
Fine stranded wire is a bastard outside. If one end ever gets wet, water will wick up between the strands for an amazingly long distance, and just sit there forever. The fine copper strands then quickly turn to green powder and the cable will fail open circuit fairly soon. Fine stranded flexible cable is much more useful for dry indoor use.
For outside, building wire is a much better choice, with fewer and much thicker strands. It will still rot away eventually if water can penetrate one end. Edited 2019-11-25 11:01 by WarpspeedCheers, Tony.
Davo99 Guru Joined: 03/06/2019 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1577
Posted: 09:34am 25 Nov 2019
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I have a tin roof and have mounted all my panels directly with the solar type hold down fittings. I take out the roof bolt, Put it through the bracket, because my roof is 20 YO and the seals aren't great I put a dob of silicone in the holethen screw it back in the same hole. Only had one panel lift due to what I am certain was some weird wind eddys caused by a nearby tank. When I left other panels sitting on the roof unsecured and they didn't move and the other one ripped out one tek screw and snapped another, something was going on.
All the rest of the 80 or so have been fine.
People have expressed concern over the panel cooling. I haven't compared but I think it would make bugger all difference having them on racking. They aren't sealed to the roof, air can still run up the corrugations which I wonder it that wouldn't cause more thermosyphoning through the small channels for faster gas flow. Taking the temp of panels elevated on my ground mount, still so hot and off their curve with unlimited rear ventilation, I can't see it matters. Unless there was forced air circulation under the panels, I can't see the passive cooling doing much if they are raised a few inches off the roof.
Just seems SOOOO much easier to do it this way than racking them. I have plenty of that with loads of new fittings as well but can't see the benifit for me. Works pretty well all tec screwed together and sunk in the ground for posts to make a trellis for the 40+ tomato plants I put in though! :-)
If I loose a few Kw a day, Meh, if the life is a little shortened, no biggie, Bought them used and cheap anyway and who is to say how long they should have lasted anyway or if a hail storm will take them out next week?
Long as they stay Put I'm happy and if we get any stronger winds than what they have already seen, we are in bigger trouble than will warrant worrying about solar panels.
rogerdw Guru Joined: 22/10/2019 Location: AustraliaPosts: 794
Posted: 01:24pm 25 Nov 2019
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Buying all the cable and fittings is a bit more doable when done in stages anyway.
And you're correct about the installation ... inverter and batteries directly below panels ... though the roof is pretty long and narrow ... so the end ones will have more of a run.
I had no idea the mounting hardware would cause that much grief, but I can see value in going for new if the old stuff is that painful.
Actually, the C-section I was talking about ... was the purlins on the walls and the 'rafters' in the roof. The 240v ac cabling is just laid inside these and clipped to the inside edge. The only conduit is the flexible stuff where it goes over a sharp edge.
Yeah, I've had plenty of experience there.
I remember once seeing a tv antenna plug all green and grungy ... and when I unplugged it and pulled it apart ... water dripped out of the cable. Had travelled 25 meters from up on the antenna where the balun cover had disintigrated from UV and fallen off.
With the work I do now ... I often have to reterminate wires ... and sometimes you can cut back several feet (if you have that much) ... and still find blackened copper.
I never would have considered that ... I guess it could work ... but nah ... don't think I could do it.
I do keep looking at our side fence. I reckon some basic framework bolted to the fence ... and I could get 50 or 60 panels in a row with near perfect orientation and tilt ... though I understand that that would require council approval ... whereas bolted flat to the roof does not.
There is just a bare paddock alongside ... so no shading ... and wiring and cabling would be a breeze ... and I couldn't fall off the roof doing it.
Cheers, RogerCheers, Roger
Solar Mike Guru Joined: 08/02/2015 Location: New ZealandPosts: 1123
Posted: 07:43pm 25 Nov 2019
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Ground mounting has many advantages, no roof penetrations to leak that maybe a potential future problem, ease of access and cleaning every so often, no council involved (in NZ anyway), easy to add to; overall less hassle.
If the paddock contains cows, mount them high enough such they (the cows) don't lick them to bits or trash them using them as back scratches.
Cheers Mike Edited 2019-11-26 07:13 by Solar Mike
Warpspeed Guru Joined: 09/08/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 4406
Posted: 09:54pm 25 Nov 2019
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Ground mounted panels will probably have less wind loading too.Cheers, Tony.
Davo99 Guru Joined: 03/06/2019 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1577
Posted: 10:21pm 25 Nov 2019
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Where I am, anything at or below the fence line is not subject to council approval. Put the tops of the panel or frame 100 mm below the top of the fence which should be 6 Ft and you should not have any problems. Maybe they go on height anyway. If you are below the regulation height, you have free reign far as I'm aware.
50 or 60 Panels would be a LONG run. That would take some cable and you'd probably want 6 Mm for the furthest half at least. You would be better to double stack them even if you put them at differing angles.
As far as the ideal angle, that's probably the least ideal angle for anyone. I'd be leaning heavily toward the ideal WINTER angle because thats when you will really be wanting all the power you can get. Come summer you could probably stand the panels verticaly with their back to the sun much as that would be and still make better than mid winter output. Summer has hours more light per day and far more radiation. Summer takes care of itself easily.
For my money, winter is what you want to pay attention to and set up for given the ability to do so.
The warning with cows is a salient one. A farmer came into My fathers wrecking yard about 5 weeks ago when I was up there. Had a beautiful Little Brumby he had kept like new. Went out into the paddock with it and parked it to go look at something down the hill where he didn't want to take it and get it dirty.
Got back to the thing 20 Min later and it was destroyed. Poor guy was almost crying when he showed up the pics. the thing looked like it had been in a demo derby. Not one panel that wasn't crushed, headlights and Grille missing, tail light ripped out, no mirrors and looked like one of them had sat or walked over the bonnet of the thing and 0one must had tried to get on the roof as well because it was buggered as well and looked cocked slightly to one side.
If you said a heard of wild Rhino got to it, you could imagine it looking like that but passive, harmless cows?
I think the next thing the guy will take into the paddock is an ex army tank... complete with loaded 105 MM for a bit of payback.
rogerdw Guru Joined: 22/10/2019 Location: AustraliaPosts: 794
Posted: 11:30am 26 Nov 2019
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Thanks Mike, glad to see someone else thinks it's a good idea. Would be reasonably easy to mount brackets to the existing posts and struts across to posts ... then the mounting strips to that.
There are only sheep there occasionally ... luckily no cows or goats.
Yes, I can see it adding strength to the whole fence structure as well. Only issue will be dealing with the inevitable weeds that will be harder to get to.
I will check to see what the rules are in SA. Would be really good if I could utilise that method. I understand we don't need approval for mounting panels against the roof ... but if we use tilt frames etc we definitely need to get planning approval.
I don't think I'm ever likely to need 60 panels down the fence ... but it's nice to know there's room. I reckon 30 would be good.
I do have use for extra power during winter if I can make it work ... so angled for winter and close to where I need the power is ideal.
Thanks for the warning about cows too ... I'll make sure we don't allow any in. Thinking about it ... we did get quite a bit of damage to the glass houses in our paddock from sheep, getting spooked and just barging straight through!!!
Cheers, RogerCheers, Roger
Davo99 Guru Joined: 03/06/2019 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1577
Posted: 12:03am 27 Nov 2019
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EXTRA power in winter??
My Dream!
Like a LOT of things on the net, I think the " Ideal" tilt with solar is anything but for most people. Given the ability I would definitely go with a winter orientation. Yes, you would loose some power for max yearly generation but IMHO you are not likely to need it in summer and your batteries will very likely be floating by mid morning if not earlier and the rest is going to waste anyway no matter what angle the panels are at.
I have been thinking of putting up another shed but got the brainwave Of doing a lean to on the side of the shed. That is north facing and I am also thinking of making the roof out of panels and silicone them together to make them water tight. Not sure about the expansion and contraction though. Spose the should all move and the same rate so maybe I just need to leave some room on the edges and should be OK? Not sure what angle I could get them to and have enough height at the low end but I guess just put them as steep as possible and be happy.
Would give me another 4.5 Kw north facing which would be handy in 250W panels. Found a guy selling about 40 Panels of Mixed output. I reckon I could probably get them for about $5 ea which would make it a cheaper roof than buying metal. I have plenty of Racking so I would just need enough steel for a decent outer frame and Uprights and i'd be set.
I was thinking of putting another panel over the window on that north side of the shed to run another fan like in the other window. I then thought I would make like an awning right along. Then I thought well why not make it 2 panels wide which would be plenty of room for all the mowers and machinery etc and utilise an otherwise wasted space. The fact I would have to clear the crap I have there now would certainly get the seal of approval from the Mrs.
Out of interest, what would you do with the extra power you had? I have been trying to think of something useful to do with the easily several 100 Kw+ I have over summer but yet to come up with anything practical or workable.
rogerdw Guru Joined: 22/10/2019 Location: AustraliaPosts: 794
Posted: 01:33am 27 Nov 2019
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Haha ... you're probably not going to like this coz it's not something you can do easily there ... and it certainly won't help over summer either.
I have mentioned elsewhere that when we bought the house I spotted some new, unused, underfloor heater controls in the laundry cupboard. After enquiring I discovered they'd had a major water leak which wrecked a lot of floor coverings ... so pulled it all up and fitted acres of huge tiles.
In the process, they decided to fit underfloor heating wires ...
... but, once they were all installed ... found they didn't have sufficient power capacity to run them ... seeing the power comes underground from about 450 meters away.
Their idea then was to wait for the HWS to die ... fit gas hot water ... and then use the power for the underfloor heating.
They did fit a gas HWS ... but didn't complete the other.
Now ... if I can find enough panels to fit on the fence alongside the power inlet to the panels ... I may be able to build one or two of Tony's simple PWM hot water heater type devices ... to run them.
It may not run them fully ... but it has to help somewhat in raising the temperature during winter ... which will ease the burden on me having to keep up the wood supply to our wood heater.
We are really fortunate in having a free wood supply ... but it is still a big job to keep the house warm.
I need to revisit the numbers again ... but I figure I'm going to need at least 5 or 6kW of panels dedicated to the task ... probably more.
Cheers, Roger Edited 2019-11-27 11:37 by rogerdwCheers, Roger
Warpspeed Guru Joined: 09/08/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 4406
Posted: 02:04am 27 Nov 2019
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In winter you are only going to have solar for about six hours out of twenty four hours, and on really cloudy days almost nothing.
Underfloor heating needs to be continuous to work, its so very slow to heat up. A better bet might be a solar powered heat pump. You can get more heat out than the energy put in, and it starts working as soon as you switch it on.Cheers, Tony.
Notice. New forum software under development. It's going to miss a few functions and look a bit ugly for a while, but I'm working on it full time now as the old forum was too unstable. Couple days, all good. If you notice any issues, please contact me.
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