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Forum Index : Microcontroller and PC projects : What's The Relationship with SC?
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| Andrew_G Guru  Joined: 18/10/2016 Location: AustraliaPosts: 871 |
Hi all, I've just finished reading the latest copy of SC and it has prompted me to ask the question that has been on my mind for some time: "What is the relationship with SC?" Many TBS members subscribe, and some even write articles, but there is rarely reference in SC to TBS (and even less to Geoff, Peter et al). Sure, SC has to promote itself to sell, and "we" probably shun any limelight (for valid reasons), but there are so many occasions where SC could give recognition/credit to 'team MMBasic' who could usually provide better help to SC subscribers... My tipping point was an elderly gent wanting to upgrade a device from a 2.5" to a 3.5" LCD where any number of TBS members could have given more detailed answers and possibly even offered to help. I'm not suggesting a change to the relationship - but merely to understand it. (BUT the upcoming articles on CMM2 would be one opportunity to add a footnote about support from TBS) Cheers, Andrew (I do agree the the editorial standard has improved recently - so much so that I renewed my subscription having skipped a year+ in silent protest) |
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Gizmo Admin Group  Joined: 05/06/2004 Location: AustraliaPosts: 5119 |
Hi Andrew There is no relationship between TBS and SC. There is a bit of history though. About 15 years ago I wrote a few articles on wind turbines for SC, and was paid accordingly. Years later the editor took what I believed was a very political stance in this editorials and I made many comments on TBS about his views and using SC as his own personal soap box, and suggested he moved on. I know the SC editor was aware of my comments. Since then someone else has taken over the position of SC editor and I think we can all agree the editorial content has become more on target to a electronics magazine. As far as I'm concerned its water under the bridge. TBS is independent, and apart from a few gifts from forum members, and a little revenue from the google ads ( about $3 a day ), its only purpose is to give you guys a place to chat. I know I've found the forum very useful in my own projects, the brains trust is very good  Glenn Edited 2020-05-31 11:18 by Gizmo The best time to plant a tree was twenty years ago, the second best time is right now. JAQ |
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| Andrew_G Guru Joined: 18/10/2016 Location: AustraliaPosts: 871 |
Thank Glenn, Firstly, you do a magnificent job. VERY much appreciated. I'm not surprised there is 'history' but that may now well be, as you say, 'water under the bridge'. No reason why it shouldn't. I'm just thinking that SC readers might benefit from at least acknowledging TBS' existence. It may come with time . . . Thanks again, Andrew |
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Geoffg Guru Joined: 06/06/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 3292 |
Perhaps this question came from beta test projects such as the CMM2 on the Back Shed which then appear as an article in Silicon Chip. This is part of an "ecosystem" that works quite well. Peter Mather and I have fun creating things, Silicon Chip gets to publish an article and help spread the news, the Back Shed enthusiasts get to play with something new and help new users. People like Grogster and WhiteWizard get to sell some kit which is great for people who want an easy route in. Nobody gets much money. Silicon Chip is a very economical organisation with only 4 or 5 staff and they pay very little per page for the articles, Grogster and WhiteWizard never turn a real profit and the rest of us just do it for the fun of it. Silicon Chip is key as they reach a lot of enthusiasts and help build the critical mass needed for something to become popular. Another important part is Glenn who runs this forum for free. The whole thing would collapse if the Back Shed went away. You are right though, there should be a pointer in the SC articles to TBS. I will see if this can be included although they are very close to going to print. Geoff Edited 2020-05-31 12:24 by Geoffg Geoff Graham - http://geoffg.net |
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| Andrew_G Guru Joined: 18/10/2016 Location: AustraliaPosts: 871 |
Hi Geoff, Thanks for chipping in. My "interest" in this goes back much further to when authors on SC, that I don't recognise as members of TBS, have used words like "we" (meaning "SC") when I believe it was more you or Peter etc. Certainly in the articles on the new MM 3.5" backpack one gained the "impression" that SC had a bigger role than perhaps they did (I'm trying to be diplomatic). That said, if you and the team are happy then so am I; but it is the SC readers that are missing out. BUT I am not suggesting expanding the scope of TBS because part of its strength is in its intimacy AND I certainly don't want to burden Glenn anymore than he is. Another risk is that we don't want to attract trolls - as we may have seen recently. So the idea of a discrete, minimalist pointer to TBS might be enough. Cheers, Andrew (BTW - I made myself "self unemployed" nearly 10 years ago so almost everything I do is for fun (apart from mowing lawns etc). Chasing the $ finished long before then - A) |
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| zeitfest Guru Joined: 31/07/2019 Location: AustraliaPosts: 582 |
SC is a privately owned entity and is almost certainly dependent on advertising revenue, ie, electronics chains. My impression is those chains have stock which is hard to sell when superseded. Other influences would be directors affiliations, financiers, shareholders, etc. So it gets convoluted. It would be good to see the readership figures and demographics: mostly retirees and/or hobbyists I guess. I am sure they get sent quite a few articles, projects etc, very few are published I think. Certainly the dream of sales supporting a successful garage start-up business is not going to happen with MM and SC. The market is steadily shrinking as younger people tend to shun the area as well. Many letters are about users problems in projects, kits etc, that I guess SC would rather not, or cannot afford to, get involved in. It would be good to get Glen to run a users website for SC projects I think ! then SC would gain a lot and TBS could get back to its original focus of alternative energy projects and development instead of being monopolised to some extent by MM. |
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| Gizmo Admin Group Joined: 05/06/2004 Location: AustraliaPosts: 5119 |
I dont mind the MM content at all, I actually like it. Originally TBS was very wind turbine orientated, but peoples interests change ( mine especially ), and these days there is a active MM group of users on the forum, which is just fine by me. Glenn The best time to plant a tree was twenty years ago, the second best time is right now. JAQ |
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thwill Guru Joined: 16/09/2019 Location: United KingdomPosts: 4311 |
I don't know if I'm one of the "trolls" referred to above. The "Captain" certainly thinks so and I won't deny having gently tweaked his tail ... I was provoked. However unless another forum is going to be setup (not God forbid Facebook) then TBS is the place where you should hope new enthusiasts gather and they should we welcomed with open arms and tolerated with amusement. Without new blood there is danger the CMM2 will be still born* * Though I suspect that the death of hobbyist electronics and associated activities is a foregone conclusion brought on by failures in the education system (now I do sound like the other troll) and the increasing disparity between the techniques of professional and hobbyist electronics. Also just to set the third straight I am not "new blood" or some script kiddie, I'm 46 with 23 years professionsl programming (but no hardware/electronics) experience in the chemical engineering industry. My occasionally playful demeanor is simply because this is my "play". Best wishes, Tom Edited 2020-05-31 19:55 by thwill MMBasic for Linux, Game*Mite, CMM2 Welcome Tape, Creaky old text adventures |
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Poppy Guru Joined: 25/07/2019 Location: GermanyPosts: 486 |
Hi Tom, it surely is not about you or anyone else currently around. Some while ago there was one troll being already gone. That´s all. So, no need to extend this particularly, but my full support in general. Any limelight will attract gadflies, too. Andre ... such a GURU? | ||||
| Andrew_G Guru Joined: 18/10/2016 Location: AustraliaPosts: 871 |
Hi Folks (especially Tom), Please be of good cheer! I don't think that any current posters on TBS are trolls (and its not up to me anyway) but there were a couple of potentials that have been and gone. (as a VERY senior police officer once said to me about a corrupt former colleague "a little too far ahead of the posse"). It is great to have diverse views. Another of our strengths is that, in general, we put them in a constructive way and move on to the next exciting MMBasic adventure. Back to the discussion - I am happy to leave it to Geoff to take small, measured steps as he thinks best. Cheers, Andrew (Edit: And I've always wanted to say to Poppy that Andrew means "manly" . . .) Edited 2020-05-31 22:08 by Andrew_G |
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Grogster Admin Group Joined: 31/12/2012 Location: New ZealandPosts: 9610 |
@ thwill - You do make valid points. I think that the electronics hobbyists are all of our generation mostly!  The new teenagers on the scene are so glued to their iPhones, that they never bother to actually study electronics at a component level, or bother to assemble kits, really. That is not to say there aren't teenage boys AND girls who DO, but I don't think there are as many as there were when we were growing up. Many of today's teens aren't interested in doing something, if it can't be downloaded and installed in app form!  I remember seeing a photo of a class of teenagers at an art gallery, and they were ALL sitting on the benches staring at their phones! Not ONE of them was looking at the art on the wall.  If I find the photo, I will post it here. Smoke makes things work. When the smoke gets out, it stops! |
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palcal Guru Joined: 12/10/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1993 |
It would be a good question to ask at some schools, whether there is interest in ANY hobbies these days. The CMM2 would be the perfect project for a school and maybe there would be some interest if they knew it could be programmed for games. I think WW was running MM classes, I wonder what interest he had. It is a pity that one day skills will be lost, I still do valve radio as a hobby and just restored an amplifier I first built in 1967. "It is better to be ignorant and ask a stupid question than to be plain Stupid and not ask at all" |
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| ryanm Senior Member  Joined: 25/09/2015 Location: AustraliaPosts: 203 |
I would say a downturn in SC circulation would be better attributed to a decline in printed media rather than electronics as a hobby. Everything is going online now, ink and paper cost more and the almighty dollar has spoken. (Although they probably should rename it the Australian Rupee to give foreigners a better idea of the exchange rate.) If you look at the massive growth of companies like Sparkfun and Adafruit in the last half decade it paints a fairly optimistic picture I think. Was talking to a kid the other day that has a robotics class in their rural highschool. Certainly not a subject I had access to growing up. Bit of it is changing technologies as well. I didn't even know embedded basic on modern chips was a thing until I stumbled across this forum. Most of the projects I see online generally seem to use Arduino or ESP-32 chips. |
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| GregZone Senior Member Joined: 22/05/2020 Location: New ZealandPosts: 114 |
Hi Tom. Regarding new enthusiasts gathering at TBS: Just thought I’d mention that I’m a new TBS forum member. I located TBS via an interest in CMM2, which I only discovered via debuglive’s “Maximite Colour 1” YouTube video (posted 22 May). I’m an old-school digital electronics hobbiest (now in my 50’s), with a long career in IT, software development, and electronics. So it is interesting that I hadn’t come across TBS earlier. Perhaps this indicates that more promotion of TBS could be beneficial? (or just that I've had my head in the sand. LOL) Hopefully the CMM2 will not be still-born! But it does seem that awareness will mostly be via the SC articles and via existing MM enthusiasts spreading the word. I look at the example of The 8-bit Guy’s “Commander X16” retro computer project, which now has a very large & active following, even though the final product release date is not yet known! This large & active following mostly achieved through Youtube & Facebook exposure. Interestingly, I’d suspect the vast majority of Commander X16 followers would also be very interested in what the CMM2 has to offer. As a retro system with instant on, colour graphics, and a relatively mature BASIC that can perform as fast as machine code on old-school 1Mhz CPU based systems. Not to mention, is actually available to build now! My point is that there are plenty of new blood enthusiasts out there. It seems just a case of how to more effectively get the word out, to grow the awareness of what the CMM2 (and TBS) have to offer. Just my 2c thought. :) |
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| PeterB Guru Joined: 05/02/2015 Location: AustraliaPosts: 655 |
G'Day Grogster et al As most of you know I am very old. I started winding coils for one valve radios etc. As time went on and the world changed, we started to worry that the skill of building a radio was dying out and what would young people do. And then your lot came along with computers. {I just had to look up the meaning of "TROLL". I thought a troll lived under a bridge and ate billy goats.} I think ryanm is correct, We are very curious creatures, and there will always be a place for geeks and other weirdos but what they will be doing I have no idea. The point is, never give up because it is FUN. Peter |
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| Geoffg Guru Joined: 06/06/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 3292 |
Hi Greg and welcome. Gaining recognition is a subtle process that I believe depends on getting some "critical mass". SC is part of this as their readership is far greater than TBS. TBS is also important and later we hope to get an article into Practical Electronics (UK) and perhaps others. The important point is that we are not in "competition" with the rest of the world (Arduino or others) and there is no commercial driver, we are just a bunch of people having fun. There is plenty of space for everyone. Geoff Geoff Graham - http://geoffg.net |
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| busa Regular Member  Joined: 12/02/2015 Location: AustraliaPosts: 81 |
OMG, I remember that album, my parents used to play it all the time when I was a kid (pun intended) |
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| thwill Guru Joined: 16/09/2019 Location: United KingdomPosts: 4311 |
Did I slip into an alternate dimensions where instead of Three Billy Goats Gruff being an old fairy tale it was an album?  MMBasic for Linux, Game*Mite, CMM2 Welcome Tape, Creaky old text adventures |
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| thwill Guru Joined: 16/09/2019 Location: United KingdomPosts: 4311 |
Hi Greg, I'm new here myself, however a few lengthy threads about flashing LEDs have had me promoted to a "Senior Member" before my time. At this rate I'll need to add a "I am not a Guru" disclaimer to my signature. I discovered the "Maxmimite Colour 1" via this video by the 8-Bit Guy, though it took me time to locate a UK supplier micromite.org. Phil / The White Wizzard set me up, and when I asked him "where all the cool kids hang out", he pointed me here The former I think as before contacting the White Wizzard I had been googling around the net for CMM information and never found my way here ... though seeing that there is a link from Geoff's Maximite homepage it appears I was just incompetent. As you identified, the 8-Bit Guy, Perifractic (and possibly the other members of their team) already had a big (if niche) internet following and a substantial built in audience for their spiritual successor to the C64. Also see the ZX Spectrum Next for a similar project that has delivered, all be it after a long gestation period. The CMM2 is vastly more capable, less than 30% the price proposed for the Commander X16 and comes with a hugely superior BASIC; they are initially using the (even at the time) pretty lousy Commodore BASIC 2.0. However the CMM2 is missing the ability for the user to write and run machine code, which is a big reason that the 8-Bit Guy gave for dismissing the CMM1 as his "dream machine". The ability to code in machine code seems to be a big draw for retro computer programmers and it appeals to something inside me too. <Flame proof suit on>The gold standard for the CMM2 might be for MMBasic to include an inline assembler such as the BBC Micro provided, however that is I suspect a complete pipe dream and possibly even technically impossible - it's certainly out of my area of expertise.</Flame proof suit off> I hope you are correct. Best wishes, Tom Edited 2020-06-01 20:13 by thwill MMBasic for Linux, Game*Mite, CMM2 Welcome Tape, Creaky old text adventures |
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| busa Regular Member Joined: 12/02/2015 Location: AustraliaPosts: 81 |
No alternate dimension, the story was bought out on a vinyl record with different voice overs for the Troll and goats and was popular among party goers at the time. Apologies for hijacking the post people. |
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