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Forum Index : Microcontroller and PC projects : I think that we should The 8-Bit Guy and debuglive to do new videos.
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| mclout999 Guru  Joined: 05/07/2020 Location: United StatesPosts: 490 |
Hi, I think we should do some lobbying of The 8-Bit Guy and debuglive to ask them to revisit The CMM2 to show the world all of the amazing progress on the project. I left a comment on their previous videos but does anyone know either of them or have a better suggestion to contact them to ask. I really think so many more people would love to get involved. Thanks. |
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CaptainBoing Guru Joined: 07/09/2016 Location: United KingdomPosts: 2170 |
8-bit is developing his own retro machine... I am not saying there is a conflict of interests, but comparing his plans with the CMM2 one would be forced to ask "why bother continuing with his re-run?" I suppose it depends on the end goal. If you want a truly fast home PC with the feel of an 80's instant-on machine but with capabilities of the 21st century then it is a no-brainer. If you simply want to re-create a C64 then crack on. He will be using a 6502 variant (a bit faster) and his basic will still have line-numbers. Coupled with a janky language spec that heavily relies on cryptic PEEKs and POKEs for fundamental stuff like plotting point of colour... what is he thinking??? An immediate turn-off for me. I consider not everything is rosy from those machines of the 80s and I feel we have a very close stab at best combination today. Retro for the sake of it scores low. And there you have my 2p on why any comparison is not getting much traction - in a nutshell and without sugar-coating it: CMM2 throws darkness on his offering and makes it look laughable by comparison for any number of reasons. Anyone seeing the two side-by-side would not be buying his unless they were trying to re-live some school-boy days... I feel the same about the various speccy clones popping up on GoFundMe - why? They were barely acceptable for 1982, the only win was it was terribly cheap (=accessible) but are fairly crappy by the standards of just a couple of years later. Sorry if that is a bit ascerbic but I did say no sugar. Reminiscing is OK, but please be realistic. Rebound's Law: Never return to a lit firework my 2p... let the stoning commence Edited 2020-12-06 07:45 by CaptainBoing |
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thwill Guru Joined: 16/09/2019 Location: United KingdomPosts: 4311 |
No stones from me, everything you said rings true. Speccy clones on GoFundMe? is that a throwaway reference to the ZX Spectrum Next? or something else I haven't noticed? Best regards, Tom Edited 2020-12-06 08:37 by thwill MMBasic for Linux, Game*Mite, CMM2 Welcome Tape, Creaky old text adventures |
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RetroJoe Senior Member  Joined: 06/08/2020 Location: CanadaPosts: 290 |
Not at all - IMO, you are totally on-point. One of 8-bit's laudable goals for his Commander X16 project was transparent hardware that mere mortals could understand and extend i.e. non-cryptic address, data and control signals, no FPGAs, etc. He kind of blew that design goal with the inclusion of an FPGA-based subsystem for the video output, and they still seem to be dithering on what hardware the sound architecture will be based on (another X16 design goal is using available off-the-shelf parts, but none of the old 8-bit sound chips are in production). Paradoxically, despite being based on a 32-bit microcontroller, I think the CMM2 is much more in keeping with 8-bit's "dream computer, largely on the strength of MMBasic. In other words, it is a built-in "instant on" BASIC that is the defining characteristic of a retro computer, not the hardware per se. I imagine PEEKing and POKEing 6502 machine instructions is part of the nostalgia trip for The 8-bit Guy, but as you point out, acquiring that knowledge was often a matter of necessity back in the day. If any of the 8-bit BASICs were half as fast as MMBasic, I'm guessing very few people would have bothered to learn assembler. Enjoy Every Sandwich / Joe P. |
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| yock1960 Senior Member Joined: 18/08/2020 Location: United StatesPosts: 167 |
I was onboard with the CX16 project, being a C64er that never did as much with it as I'd like to have and the partial compatibility with slightly better specs, being attractive. But, it didn't take me long to order a CMM2 after seeing the videos. It was like...this is it. A modern version of BASIC, good power, much better graphics capabilities, available now (sort of  ). It's a bit of nostalgia with a nice community and at a good price too!Steve |
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| mclout999 Guru Joined: 05/07/2020 Location: United StatesPosts: 490 |
I really don't care about Daves project. He did the first CMM2 video and he could do a follow-up. He has a good platform and lots of SUBs and that is all I care about. I found out about this project from his video. I was interested in his device for a while but lost interest for just about everything reason you said, but you know they have a lot of additional commands including decent graphics and sound. I'm still not interested for other reasons. I tried to get involved but their admins were kind of sh*tty shutting down conversations and even deleting without notice a subject I started just because they didn't want it discussed(on proposed features). When I asked they basically said TOO BAD move on, so I DID!! It is also a big unwieldy PC sized monstrosity at this point. The CMM2 is a vastly superior project in every way that matters to me, and the community, admins, and our developers are the best I HAVE EVER SEEN. I just want to leverage the YouTube channels of these guys to get the word out. Dave a good fellow and might do it and the other fellow has no potential conflict. There are a lot of other RETO YouTubers that might also shine a little light on the CMM2 and if anyone has some suggestions that would be good as well. PS. You are right on the speccy clones. I have played with a TTgo VGA32(Nice little cheap as hell device) with a speccy emulator and find the games, not to my liking. IF I wanted to play them I could do so on any of a dozen emulation platforms I have. Emulation is not what I wanted anyway. Edited 2020-12-06 09:15 by mclout999 |
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| ChrisJournoud Newbie  Joined: 12/10/2020 Location: FrancePosts: 20 |
The fact is that he wants to make a commercial product with no open sourced hardware to keep some control on it |
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| Decoy Senior Member Joined: 02/08/2019 Location: DenmarkPosts: 109 |
I have enjoyed 8-Bit Guy for years, but to mr it is clear that the Commander 16 won't fly. I think he will come to that conclusion himself. I especially got turned off when the Commander 16 became a "Youtube-star"-project. To me, this is at the other pole compared with Maximite. . |
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| mkopack73 Senior Member Joined: 03/07/2020 Location: United StatesPosts: 261 |
Personally I was all in on the Commander X16 at first. Sounded like a fun system. But then they made a few decisions that had me scratch my head and gave me pause: 1) Use of the existing C64 KErnel and BASIC ROMS - So we're still saddled with HORRIBLE BASIC 2.0. WHY??? 2) sticking with the 65C02 @ 8Mhz... Ok, so it's faster than a C64, but not like OMG faster. Still stuck with all the headaches of trying to get more memory out of a chip that was only designed to access 64K. 3) insisting that to get the most out of it you'd have to drop to 6502 Assembly. I'm sorry, I didn't learn it back in the 80's, I look at it now and think "OMG WHY?" I immediately think the same things I do when comparing C++ and Java - Do I want to fight with all the crazy intricacies of a complex language, or do I want to get sh*t done? No thanks. I have ZERO interest in learning 6502 assembly and all it's weird modes and crazy addressing and lack of GP registers and such. If we were talking something like MIPS assembly where you at least have GP registers, then ok... I just feel like they are beholden to the Commodore legacy too much and aren't pushing forward enough. Comparing the Commander X16 vs the C65 project that is also going on, the C65 keeps the C64 compatibility, but is INSANELY faster. Has a MUCH better BASIC version (10.0), and so on. I feel like Dave's (8 Bit guy) dream computer is just a C64 w/SuperCPU and memory expander... At least if they had gone that route more people who have actual C64's could have taken advantage of it (Super CPU units are getting to be INCREDIBLY hard to find now...) |
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PeteCotton Guru Joined: 13/08/2020 Location: CanadaPosts: 543 |
I don't really agree with the mass of sentiment here. I am excited about the X16 project. I think it has lots of lovely design features, and watching people go through the process of designing a "new", "old" computer from scratch is very interesting. I've said it many times on here, but I cannot understand my own fascination with these sort of computers (including the CMM2). As for comparing speed, that is irrelevant. The CMM2 cannot hold a candle to a desktop PC. If we wanted to write games, why don't we just use Unity? If you just want a super fast BASIC, get a Raspberry Pi 4 and install RiscOS on it. Yet, I love the CMM2. For me, I think it's about eeking as much out of the machine as possible (aided massively by the constant Firmware upgrades). If I showed my kids Heliblaster, they would be unimpressed, because their point of reference/comparison is Assassins Creed running on a 2080 RTX desktop PC. So why are we all here? I think part of it is the comaraderie of working on a machine together. Of pushing it's capabilities forwards and tinkering with it. I am sure the X16 crew feel the same way about their machine. We don't need to start a "version war" over which machine is better. There's plenty of love to go around for all retro-machines. Including the Spectrum remakes etc. I am going to keep watching the X16 and encouraging their progress, I will also keep an eye on RiscOS, I think that has amazing potential. But my main focus will be on the CMM2, as that is the one that aligns the most with what I want out of a machine. For other people, the X16 will be that machine. Different horses for different courses. Edited 2020-12-07 04:26 by PeteCotton |
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| mkopack73 Senior Member Joined: 03/07/2020 Location: United StatesPosts: 261 |
Oh I don’t think any of us are saying the CX16 is a bad machine... it’s just not the right one *for us*. I wanted something that had all the simplicity of the old 8-bits but with powerful cpu and graphics AND the command set that made it possible to really take advantage of that hardware without dropping into the hell of Assembly language (I can handle some C/C++, but assembly - no, not for me). When I saw the CMM2, at the price point it was at, with modern SD storage, fast cpu and GPu, and easy to use basic and most importantly the exposure of that graphics capability through the BASIC rather than resorting to Peek and Poke commands, I was sold. Totally dropped all interest in the CX16. Like I said, I think David would have been better off developing a modern version of the Super CPU add on for the C64 and maybe an add-on GPu board for the c64 (like the original test Vera board was) which could have been sold to the entire C64 community rather than making a whole new nice machine that requires a LOT of 6502 knowledge to really use... |
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| mclout999 Guru Joined: 05/07/2020 Location: United StatesPosts: 490 |
Still on this X16 debate? I think we all know the virtues of the CMM2 but so many have no idea of its existence. OK, the point of me opening this thread was to whip up some awareness for the CMM2 for the rest of the world and using the power of YouTube to do so. Once again wouldn't that be a good idea? Those few videos on relatively high traffic channels are quite old and not much at the head of YouTube's algorithm. Only fresh new videos are going to get views by those other than subscribers. The views on those videos and all of the ones posted from our community are very LOW now. We should be actively trying to maintain some visibility on YouTube, Facebook, and maybe an official Twitter account(can not find one if there is one). The older or more obscure videos do not get traffic. I am sure there are a lot of people that would be very interested in the CMM2 if they KNEW ABOUT IT. I have introduced a few people to the CMM2 and they HAD ZERO awareness of it, and they are big retro gamers. Word of mouth is not enough. Any suggestion on who and how to get some coverage and some NEW views? I do not know anyone directly and my request to those two guys will probably have no pull. Thanks. |
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epsilon Senior Member Joined: 30/07/2020 Location: BelgiumPosts: 255 |
I completely agree with mclout999. I think the current CMM2 community is too small. For this to become a platform for people to release creative content (games, demos etc.) that goes beyond 2000 lines of MMBasic, I think a larger and wider audience is needed. While I really like hanging out on TheBackShed, it's tucked away in a quiet corner of the internet. If this were a reddit community, for instance, it would be easier for other interested people to find/discover us. Epsilon CMM2 projects |
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CircuitGizmos Guru Joined: 08/09/2011 Location: United StatesPosts: 1427 |
There is this: https://www.reddit.com/r/Maximite/ Edited 2020-12-07 07:57 by CircuitGizmos Micromites and Maximites! - Beginning Maximite |
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| JoOngle Regular Member  Joined: 25/07/2020 Location: SwedenPosts: 82 |
One of the BIGGEST advantages with CMM2 is that it has such an active community, and more importantly - seriously active developer. (And Yes, I'm looking at you Peter!) ;) I've never seen a retro project with THIS much activity going on, we've already got support for 3D now. IF - the CMM2 would EVER have a competitor (and I'm ranting here, so take it with a pinch of salt), then it would be a project that's similar in the power of CMM2's MMbasic, but with more hardware features. One of the things that made the Commodore 64, Amiga, Atari etc. so appealing, is that it had hardware sprites, hardware bit-planes, hardware scrolling, and hardware sound, not simulated/emulated or created by using the CPU with software emulation. If you want that - the PC is an excellent platform. Yes, the CMM2 has sprites, but it's not as we know it Jim. Real hardware sprites are independent player objects created in hardware, meaning - just like on Any of these, Commodore 64, Amiga or Atari - you could "poke" your way to activating one of these player missiles (as they're called from where they originated - Arcade Machines). They have huge advantages such as being permanent without affecting the background or needing swap-space in order to update them, they will not affect the background graphics in any way, it's kinda like 3D polygons from real 3D GPU's where you can place these "objects" in 2D/3D space wherever you want them, and move them around, and the other objects OR graphics memory/video ram behind it/graphics screens - will be entirely unaffected by them. On the Commodore 64 (and most arcade machines from the era) you could call these sprites to move over/under text objects (the graphics screen). One way to achieve this with relatively modern hardware - is to use a chip that has eg. say an ARM chip - with an integrated MALI GPU in it, or maybe even PowerVR from NEC. This means you could use those polygons as independent graphics screens (2 triangles together to form a texture surface/screen with video ram) is all it takes, and you could create as many as the system where capable of, use them as scrolling screens, independent UI's, and 3D and Sprites. It's so versatile, and the best part of it all, it will completely avoid "collisions" with the graphics memory of e.g. the UI screen used for coding. Amiga used bitplanes, but it was a different technology, and the number of colors would be the results of combining these screens, which where limiting, but it worked. If I had the coding skills to do this, I'd totally do this, because it would totally eliminate the need for software emulation of sprite objects/3D polygons and graphics screens, because the Polygons themselves IS the objects/screens you can fill with textures (or use as an UI/terminal display), because texture is just graphics/video ram. |
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| mclout999 Guru Joined: 05/07/2020 Location: United StatesPosts: 490 |
Thank you that is nice to see. I really seldom go on Reddit. I will check it out. Thanks. I wonder what kind of traffic is it getting? |
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| thwill Guru Joined: 16/09/2019 Location: United KingdomPosts: 4311 |
I just checked, very little. I don't know where these many hundreds (did someone say 2000?) of CMM2 owners are hanging out, it seems to me that there are less than 50 of us. Or are we just the "gobby" ones? Best wishes, Tom Edited 2020-12-07 09:10 by thwill MMBasic for Linux, Game*Mite, CMM2 Welcome Tape, Creaky old text adventures |
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| mclout999 Guru Joined: 05/07/2020 Location: United StatesPosts: 490 |
Yah, my informal survey of all the places you can learn about the CMM2 have very limited coverage (1. FaceBook 189 users, but it is private, why? 2. Reddit is a Maxamite general account with posts starting at 2 months ago. 3. YouTube three old high profile videos with few current hits compared to their debut but that is natural for all videos so you have to have fresh content to keep your subject trending and maybe finding new interested viewers. I think we need to be more proactive. I have left suggestions on 8 videos from different provides asking Them to consider revisiting the CMM2 but am not sure how to do that effectively. I am just leaving a comment on their video. Does anyone know how to best directly message the provides? Also maybe we can contact other pundits in the RETO community like the ones doing the #DOScember I love this project and this community but I think it is too static in its membership. I think more minds with diverse input will only benefit everyone. I am learning so much from the input here but fresh blood is aways stimulating. |
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Turbo46 Guru Joined: 24/12/2017 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1642 |
The active membership has grown dramatically with the introduction of the CMM2. But I don't disagree with your comments about 'more minds with diverse input'. Posts on the CMM2 now far exceed the posts on the Micromite and other devices. Maybe a series of articles in Silicon Chip magazine that may be picked up by Practical Electronics of vice versa would help. Bill Keep safe. Live long and prosper. |
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| mkopack73 Senior Member Joined: 03/07/2020 Location: United StatesPosts: 261 |
Would be cool if we could get an article in something like the various Maker magazines (like Make: ,is that even still around???)... after all, the CMM + CMM2 have arduino/RasPi-like interface capabilities and easy software development.... That would help bring in a whole different crew of people. Basically, if you write something interesting, POST it on all your social media, YouTube, here, etc. Try to get some other places to carry it, etc. Hitting something like Slashdot and ArsTechnica would also have some big impact to draw in new folks... The difficulties in getting units quickly is certainly hampering the growth some. |
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