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Davo99 Guru Joined: 03/06/2019 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1577
Posted: 07:35am 06 Feb 2022
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That is a LOT more than I have seen them for. Company in sydney was selling some NEW for around $6K for 620 I think it was ah, 48V, 5 yr warranty.
Can't find them now of course but I did take particular notice at the time not so long back.
Revlac Guru Joined: 31/12/2016 Location: AustraliaPosts: 961
Posted: 08:58am 06 Feb 2022
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The battery prices I was looking at where local prices...within a few hours drive, Didn't really shop around specifically, sometimes better deals can be had by asking a company that hasn't even advertised online.
I also think the type of battery and size should be a personal choice (each to there own), not that of some sales pitch trying to push there own agenda, I have used many types of batteries over the years and will not be swayed by someone trying to tell me what I should get and why........(I do my own research) too much Hype everywhere these days....the seller ultimately gets the money and profits, the end user has to deal with all the variables and consequences thereafter.... all too common.
I might start another topic about batteries soon, just for some Amusement. when I get some spare time.Cheers Aaron Off The Grid
Old Seagull Man Regular Member Joined: 21/12/2019 Location: AustraliaPosts: 55
Posted: 12:36pm 06 Feb 2022
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always interested in on off grid FLA Batterys
Davo99 Guru Joined: 03/06/2019 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1577
Posted: 12:13am 07 Feb 2022
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Yes very good point. Looking on google, there don't seem to be all that many companies even in Sydney doing them.
Exactly. The agenda for many especialy in an industry is Profit and one should never underestimate the lies, BS and extent to which one will go to for that particular agenda.
I worked for a wholesaler once. Another guy there would ring a supplier with a customer on the phone and say when can we get this? The answer might be they were a fortnight away. The guy would get back to the customer on hold and say yeah, no worries, they will be here tomorrow! He did it 3 times a day that I heard. The boss thought it was a joke and didn't care as he got the paid up front order and they just kept BSing the customer till the stuff arrived. The guy must have been good as somehow he could do this and still the same clients would come back to him.
And that is exactly the thing I see. People are so goddam lazy these days and they will never do their own research on anything. They read some repeated crap on the net and then they repeat it and in doing so make out it is inarguable fact.
It's nothing new, seen in back when I was into the Veg oil forums 20 years back and with everything else I have seen as well. Seems people have an aversion to looking into anything these days to make up their own minds and get verifiable facts. Much quicker and easier to let others do their thinking for them.
And again something I see all the time. An industry or vested interest put out marketing/ pr spin, some of which is so ridiculous you wonder how they could put their name to it and then again, it becomes Gospel even though it is as biased and only applicable in the most Atypical scenarios imaginable.
I suppose they recognize and cater to the point above, people are lazy and ignorant and although they have the greatest information source imaginable at their fingertips, they just go with whatever crap is fed to them and they read twice which is inarguable fact in their minds there can be no other alternate possibility to.
The thing I love about this place is while small in numbers it is largely BS free and there are a LOT of very smart people here whom work on fact and truth not feelings and hyped BS.
Always exceptions to the rule but always a lot to be learned from the people here. Countering arguments, IF based on fact and reality are always a good thing for ones education and broadening of information as well.
noneyabussiness Guru Joined: 31/07/2017 Location: AustraliaPosts: 506
Posted: 02:14am 07 Feb 2022
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oh just a side note too.. speaking with Aiden from CEIL about my new battery, he said they are INCREDIBLY busy at the moment and with BS " stuff " stopping a lot of workers getting to work they short staffed big time ... still really helpful and highly recommend them... but as already mentioned, do your research with a open mind and ask questions, as Davo said, there are some really helpful and intelligent people on here that know there stuff( both from " books " and practical experience)...I think it works !!
Godoh Guru Joined: 26/09/2020 Location: AustraliaPosts: 379
Posted: 03:44am 07 Feb 2022
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My take on batteries is that the Lithium ones have not proven themselves yet. I had a phone that got hot and swelled up, it had one of those silver plastic bag batteries. It only lasted about 1.5 years before it died. having repaired electronics over many years, I like to have the least electronic stuff in the way of critical components as possible. So I stick to Lead Acid batteries until newer technologies prove themselves. When I see batteries with large Battery management systems and kilometres of wiring, I just see more stuff that needs to be protected from critters. Rats and mice love small wires Cockroaches in the sub tropics also eat small cables and circuit boards rot when they urinate on them. I have had solar power now for over 40 years. The size of the systems have grown as the panels get cheaper. (in the early 1970s a 20 watt panel cost $350) Batteries are still expensive but if they are looked after and not run flat all the time they work out reasonably well. I have Valve Regulated Lead Acid batteries now. 24 volt system with a 500 Farad capacitor bank in parallel. Starting currents for motors etc are soaked up easily by the capacitor bank. I am sure that better and cheaper batteries may come along but I am hoping that my BAE batteries will last at least 10 years. Pete
Davo99 Guru Joined: 03/06/2019 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1577
Posted: 04:24am 07 Feb 2022
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At the risk of starting a furor, I agree.
Things like a power wall use the same 18650 Batteries that I struggle to get 2 years out of in a lap top that hardly sees any run time on batteries or a rechargeable torch yet I am to believe and put my $13K down on the belief they will last 10 Years plus being cycled everyday in a home battery?? Many cases of failure long before that period already to suggest that ideal is fraught with risk.
There are all these people out there claiming the LIthium tech, on or the other ( I can't keep up) is going to last 20 years. That's what I was talking about earlier, parroting manufacturers PR.
Some of these techs haven't been INVENTED 5 years so raging that something will last 20 years when it has not been around that long is not credible to me. People here have seen how hollow some of those claims are and one can point to endless examples in other fields as well.
Until some new tech has proven it can at least last half as long as claimed, especially when there is many grounds for suspicion, to me it's longevity is the warranty period.
The other claim I see that goes hand in hand with this is people Claiming La traction packs only have a life of 5 years ( when anyone with experience will say they got 10 Min out of them and 15 is far from unusual in real world use) and then claim that lithium is so much better because it will last 20 years.
From what I have seen, lithium bought from a reputable and established seller in Oz will cost 4-5X what La does so I fail to the the benefit? Not about what lasts the longest, it's about what provides power for the lowest cost of ownership in my book. Like wise with claiming lithium is Better. I can see in many ways it is BUT, to me that's the same as putting down a toyota because a Rolls Royce is " Better". Things that cost 5X what something else down you would certainly hope is Better but I am left wondering why all this very vocal Lithium supporters aren't Driving Rolls or Bently's at the very least!!
Many people still like the AGM option which may have a 5 year life. At the pricepoint, that represents good value so the life is not as important as the amortized cost over the service life time. Plus one can get a good amount back as scrap value which lowers the cost as well. At least one has a reasonable basis to base life expectancy on, current lithium tech only has PR and fanaticism at this stage.
Besides that, the same fan Bois say the price of lithium will come down. I see no factual basis for that in manufacture or market forces but playing devils advocate, if one believed that to be the case, why would you pay the higher price now for a 20 year life instead of get a much lower cost short term option till the price fell and THEN purchase the long term solution once the price had fallen and save the supposedly substantial saving??
Makes no sense to me but then again few if any of the fan bio arguments do.
The point about wiring is a good one particularly for off grid. From what I have read, There are a great many Lithium pack failures not even caused by the batteries but by the BMS.
Lithium seems to be a one mistake deal as well so run them too far down once or over charge them too much once and it's game over.
I will be happy to sit back with the " Inferiour" chemistry and let others do the long term testing at their expense rather than Mine Time 20 years rolls around, good chance I won't be here to give a damn if the claims were right or not! :0)
bob.steel Senior Member Joined: 27/02/2020 Location: AustraliaPosts: 188
Posted: 09:08am 07 Feb 2022
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bob.steel Senior Member Joined: 27/02/2020 Location: AustraliaPosts: 188
Posted: 09:17am 07 Feb 2022
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Edited 2022-02-07 19:20 by bob.steel
noneyabussiness Guru Joined: 31/07/2017 Location: AustraliaPosts: 506
Posted: 09:21am 07 Feb 2022
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buddy, by YOUR maths, 200ah 12v is $800 bucks... so x 4 is $3200 ... then to get 800ah is x 4 again, $12800... lol not $3200...
secondly, " getting acid all over your terminals" lol, what the heck are you doing spilling it on them !!?? even the cheapest car battery has reasonable seals to prevent significant corrosion that over the life of the battery requires minimal maintenance... on a off grid traction battery its even better, requires maybe once a year to respray terminal protector ( or Ive found silicone spray works as good if not better) not the 3x price worth differences...I think it works !!
noneyabussiness Guru Joined: 31/07/2017 Location: AustraliaPosts: 506
Posted: 09:33am 07 Feb 2022
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and this myth of " 100% " dod, again I'm on MANY solar forums, and MANY lithium fanbois complaining they discharged there brand new X brand, top of the range lipo batteries that are supposed to go down " 100% " and now won't fully charge bloated etc etc... again, FLA are wayyyyyyyy more forgiving as long as you get the correct battery for its intended purpose...
think of a traction battery's usual life, 8-10 hours on a working forklift, " fast " charged overnight then back at it... and they warranty them for 5 years like this, so solar is INCREDIBLY easy on them...
the stuff you are saying sounds like a sales pitch, which on here will just get you shot down...I think it works !!
noneyabussiness Guru Joined: 31/07/2017 Location: AustraliaPosts: 506
Posted: 09:41am 07 Feb 2022
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and " breaking your backs " , again on a STATIONARY system, you move them twice 99% of the time, once to install, once to remove... then get 20-40% of the initial outlay back from scrap yard...
if I neede to save every once of weight and maximize power vs gram ( eg drone, phone etc) then lipo would be advantageous... but again, on a stationary system its not as important if the price is much higher for not much gain, but hey each to their ownI think it works !!
Davo99 Guru Joined: 03/06/2019 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1577
Posted: 09:53am 07 Feb 2022
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Annnnd once again, the same price/ Cheaper mythical Lipo BS fanboi claim goes down in a smoking, flaming heap.....
Apart from that, I have learned the hard way and am not making any major purchases of that size through an ebay seller than can disappear overnight and good luck tracking them down later.
Davo99 Guru Joined: 03/06/2019 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1577
Posted: 11:09am 07 Feb 2022
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Yes, what I was talking about with the false and Atypical situation that claims for these things are often based on.
I believe the way this particular bit of Lipo exaggerated BS came about was with those "Packaged" batteries like mentioned above that have the BMS built it. It's simply programed to leave a reserve then shut the battery off so you can use 100% of the rating till it shuts down BUT, thats not 100% of the capacity because the BMS is programmed to leave 10% or whatever it may be. The battery is never actually at 100% discharge because there is always a safety margin Built in.
All slight of hand and smoke and Mirrors.
Then what happens is Johhny " read about it on the net so it must be true" gets his cheap 2nd/5th grade cells from whoflungdung in Chynaah and sets them up and does NOT program a reserve in the BMS, If she bothered with one, and happily pulls the things down to nothing before discovering, Oh, Hangzhou, we have a problem!!
Which of course they don't want to know about or point out the fine print for silly westerner whom now has a very expensive bloated paperweight.
Yep. Flatten em dead, they will come back up. Not something you want to do more than once but it's once more than the lipos will take. Over charge them for an hour and run the voltage over limit and again, no problem. If you got Lipo, Better go buy yourself a black dress for when you take them to the scrappys cause they are dead. Of course you may have trouble finding a scrappy whom will take them. I know my local bloke won't touch the things. Certainly aren't going to get hundreds of bux for them when they are finished that's for sure.
And not to mention the jarring and banging for hours a day, the lack of maintence and the operator whom just wants to get this container unloaded so he can get home whom will run the thing till it don't move no more.... Which I have seen myself in a couple of places.
Never forget one of them that called in the repair guy when the thing had about a 10 Min run time after a nights charge. Guy is testing the cells, everyone of them barely registering and then looking in them and going " When was the last time you guys put water in these batterys?? and all the blank expressions on the faces of the warehouse Monkeys. Guy looked at them, then me, I laughed and walked off. They weren't working in a warehouse because their their licenses to perform brain surgery were still being printed that was for sure!
When it comes to these lipo batteries, it ALWAYS does!!
Personally, I don't care what people use, if they think Lipo is better and want to pay the price, Terrific. Matters to me not one bit. What I do get fed up with however is the insult to my little intelligence with the exaggeration, the flat out lies, the wind and bullsh*t and the inference I am some sort of idiot should I dare to have my own position that is not the same of the obsessive compulsive Fan Boi's.
Thing is, even If I didn't have aqn interest and too much time to look behind the BS and do my own research, I can still look at 2 things. 1m the way the lipo proponents always carry on like they are trying to convince you to buy Dodgy stocks or swamp land.
2, The smart people here that have runs on the board and quietly state what they think with verifyable facts and evidence without any exaggeration or emotion what so ever.
That's all I need to see to make my mind up. Don't need to be smart enough to work it out for myself, just smart enough to copy what the smart people do. Of some of them go Lipo, then I'm sure they are smart enough to have their own reasons why and that's fine. Those people never try to sell everyone else on their decisions though.
Hahaha! Yep, another one I have seen so many times. " But Lithium are lighter".
Well that's a Mighty fine attribute if you are transporting them around, powering an electric airplane or carrying them on your back. That could very well be an advantage worth the higher price on it's own.
If you are going to put them in the corner of a shed for 10-15 Years, then it's probably not going to be a great advantage to most. I wonder if these people that are concerned about weight also look for the Lightest stove or Fridge or furniture or Bought the lightest 12" swing Metal lathe or Milling machine they could find in case they move house and have to move those things around as well?
On the end of life topic, a couple of years ago now, I rang some scrappys and found the going price at the time worked out at 25-33% of the purchase price of a variety of packs if they were out of the steel casing. They pay more for the traction packs than other lead batteries obviously because there is more in the big ones per KG over all.
The other one I see is " They are smaller". Again, I can see a lot of places that would be a desirable advantage but the LA's are Not so large you are going to meed to build a Hangar to put them in and could be laid out so as to fit in any half reasonable shed. To me, being more compact is a worthless advantage in the home power application.
Oh, Don't forget the Biggie.... " LA Needs Maintenance and takes up your time" . Yeah, and so does wiping your arse and taking out the garbage bins every week but you'll spend a lot more time doing that per year than you will topping up a watering system every few months on an LA battery so the big deal is?
Of course they never mention the time they will spend peering ant their BMS readouts checking if one battery is 1/10th of a volt out on the other and then having it do a balance run so they are all perfect.
FFS! If people think Lithium are better, get them. In the mean time if other people want something else, don't bore and insult them with endless carry on because they dare to have a different thought on an inanimate object to what you do.
For the Lipo obsessed, just ignore the great unwashed, get in your Rolls and go for a nice drive and look down on all the poor peasants just Driving Toyota's, Mercs and BMW's and know you have the BEST set of batteries at home as well!.
bob.steel Senior Member Joined: 27/02/2020 Location: AustraliaPosts: 188
Posted: 04:04pm 08 Feb 2022
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Yes I realised that and wondered if anybody would pick it up ? I would have edited it but this is the first opportunity to get back.So at least I'm getting through to someone.
800 Ah at 48 volts is 16 @ $800 = $12800
On corrosion though I'd disagree with you . There is none on LFP because they are not normally vented as the ethylene carbonate electrolyte would evaporate quickly.
With lead acid however the batteries are always producing gas when charging . Wherever you have them will have acid in the air as well as oxygen and hydrogen. This causes corrosion everywhere that is not individually protected . You can't stop that . Edited 2022-02-09 02:06 by bob.steel
bob.steel Senior Member Joined: 27/02/2020 Location: AustraliaPosts: 188
Posted: 04:11pm 08 Feb 2022
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Davo you just don't get it . You are wrong with most of your comments and its not worth my time to keep correcting you . The BMS however is programmed to cut off at 2.5 volts to protect the cell. If you knew more you would read and understand a discharge/charge graph and the useable capacity is the space between the knees. However you can discharge them to zero volts if you want and I have done so and they recharge without damage . its just not what sensible people do as it can damage the cell if it happens frequently .
You should stop posting this PARROTED anti-Lithium hearsay rubbish. Edited 2022-02-09 02:15 by bob.steel
noneyabussiness Guru Joined: 31/07/2017 Location: AustraliaPosts: 506
Posted: 07:01pm 08 Feb 2022
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Again, I guess you read that somewhere and believe it.. yes lead acid vent, yes it CAN cause corrosion, but like anything it can be maintained EASILY with a bit of planning... ESPECIALLY stationary systems... not worth the extra $7000 grand, when as I have EXPERIENCED, it isn't that difficult to keep on top of..
if you wish to use lipo, go nuts ... I'll save that dosh and use it on more panels or one heck of a party lol, personally it would be more valuableI think it works !!
noneyabussiness Guru Joined: 31/07/2017 Location: AustraliaPosts: 506
Posted: 07:18pm 08 Feb 2022
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you do realize you contradicted yourself in your own post...
let me clarify, you said " 100%" dod "!! SAFELY !!" , so that implies repeatedly drawing down to that level will not harm them, then in same breath/ paragraph saying that you shouldn't drop them to 0v much as it can damage the cell... so what is it?? can they be drawn down 100% dod SAFELY and repeatedly ?? or another BS claim... I already know the answer but I want to see if it fanboi or truth ...
again, is it worth the extra 7 grand ?? up to the installer to decide, however PLEASE do your own research with a open mind through proper channels, ask EXPERIENCED people that actually have these systems installed and running for significant time... to quote my Nana, believe none of what you see and only half of what you hear..I think it works !!
Godoh Guru Joined: 26/09/2020 Location: AustraliaPosts: 379
Posted: 10:01pm 08 Feb 2022
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Hi Bob, my experience of Lithium batteries is limited to my computer and phone batteries, plus what I have seen on other sites of people buying Lithium cells ( individual) and wiring them themselves to make batteries for their solar systems. Most ones I have seen have been wired to BMS setups with lots of small wires monitoring each cell. With the quality of components coming out these days, I am loathe to trust electronics that are built into a non repairable position, they may last the life of the batteries but then again they may not. I like to fix things where possible. Where I live in Tasmania ( small island off the bottom of Australia) LIFEpo4 batteries are only just appearing in battery shops. I have seen 12 volt batteries which must have BMS systems built in, They seemed very expensive to me. A 200 amp hour high quality battery is nearly $1600 here. Works out more expensive for me and I would have had to have 3 parallel banks to get the capacity I have. Plus cost me about $2500 more. Freight here can be a killer. Buying in batteries from the mainland as we call it, can be very expensive. I prefer not to parallel batteries myself. That is just my preference. LifePo4 batteries may be great but then there are so many new battery types being trialed and touted that I preferred to spend my money on something that I know will work. I expect that with good care I should get 12 to 15 years out of the batteries I have, after they expire I will look at what is available. I may be behind the times but I prefer what has worked for me. My last battery bank was a set of ex telecom batteries that were given to me, they were 15 years old when I was given them and we got another 5 years out of them before we bought a brand new bank of BAE batteries. To me it is interesting to see new things that come along and to see what people are doing. cheers Pete
Warpspeed Guru Joined: 09/08/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 4406
Posted: 12:45am 09 Feb 2022
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Lithium certainly has a lot of appeal where size and weight and lack of fumes is a major consideration. Only thing worth consideration in a boat or camper van for example.
But for off grid, lead has a definite cost advantage. Different applications require different solutions.
I have never seen a drone with a lead acid battery. And I have yet to see a fork lift with Lithium.
Its not that one is better than the other, but one may be far more suitable for specific application.Cheers, Tony.
Notice. New forum software under development. It's going to miss a few functions and look a bit ugly for a while, but I'm working on it full time now as the old forum was too unstable. Couple days, all good. If you notice any issues, please contact me.
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when I get some spare time.
