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Forum Index : Microcontroller and PC projects : What has happened to the CMM2 on this board.
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RetroJoe Senior Member  Joined: 06/08/2020 Location: CanadaPosts: 290 |
I'll reiterate an earlier comment that the PicoMite affirmed for me that this community's predominant interest is using MMBasic devices in (commercial) microcontroller projects. Nothing wrong with that, of course, but for those of us who bought a CMM2 to relieve our COVID boredom and to re-live our 8-bit glory days now find ourselves in scarce company. And @frnno967's comment affirms my concern that the G2 will further splinter the retrocomputing "sub community" and have a chilling effect on CMM2 software development. The CMM2 community is too small to sustain having multiple target capabilities. The real inhibitor to growth, I think, is the prohibitive price point of a CMM2, and it's relative complexity, for casual retro hobbyists. Back in January, I floated the idea of a port of MMBasic to the dirt-cheap ESP32-based TTGO VGA (which also has a PS2 mouse port and WiFi built in) and was politely told I was welcome to do the porting work myself, which of course I am thoroughly unqualified to do. It's like telling someone who wants to learn to fly that first they must design and build their own airplane. Par for the course around here :) Edited 2021-11-07 01:16 by RetroJoe Enjoy Every Sandwich / Joe P. |
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| robert.rozee Guru  Joined: 31/12/2012 Location: New ZealandPosts: 2286 |
the problem is that while the electronic components used (ICs, resistors, capacitors, clock) are relatively cheap - less than us$30 - placing them on a PCB, adding connectors, and putting the whole thing into a plastic box is quite expensive if one wishes to manufacture less than 1000 units. there have been attempts at a cheaper option, in main being MMbasic for the RPi zero, but also the so-called MMbasic for DOS (actually win32 console). matherp (peter) had a go at the RPi, but it proved difficult to keep up with the 'feature requirements' and evolving Raspbian Linux; I/O was a major pain. thwill (tom) is currently having another go, working from a slightly different angle. in theory this would give you a programming platform for creating games software and demos on that was at least as powerful as the CMM2, but running on a $10 board that has HDMI output and USB keyboard. but i fear that even with the best of intentions, things will falter as users ask for ever more complex access to hardware features. cheers, rob :-) |
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| mclout999 Guru Joined: 05/07/2020 Location: United StatesPosts: 430 |
RetroJoe Yes, I really did wish something would have moved on that device. I have mine set up as VIC20 with OTA games download. It is a very nice feature rich cheep little device($13 shipped) I do understand that it would be a very intensive port with no previous foundational work done on it, but it would have been cool. I mean it is a little bigger than a matchbox has VGA, SD card, PS/2 Keyboard and mouse, and WIFI with native libraries for anything you would want to do including a full Internet stack. I too wish I had the kind of skill set that would allow me to do something like that. Maybe some others may create a bare mettle modern Basic computer on it instead of just the emulators that are available on it now. The Spectrum variants are nice but not fully fleshed out so far. robert.rozee Now that we have the new PI Zero 2 W that would be an even better options, but for all of the reasons you state that seems an uphill battle. I am using one of my Zero 2 Ws to replace the Zero in a custom handheld I made a while back. A knightly build of retopi works perfectly on it. |
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Mixtel90 Guru Joined: 05/10/2019 Location: United KingdomPosts: 5715 |
The CMM2 price is what it is. You can't DIY one for much less - I tried and it ended up costing a bit more. There are few early home computer emulation things sold - there isn't really that much interest - and the CMM2 isn't expensive compared to some boxes on the market. The PicoMite might tap into a new market as there is increasing support for the Pico but, until MMBasic came along, no "proper" BASIC language for it. It's very cheap. The TTGO VGA looks like an interesting platform for MMBasic, but whether the amount of work needed to port MMBasic to it would be worth it is questionable. At best you end up with a cheap CMM2 copy but without the GPIO capability. Mick Zilog Inside! nascom.info for Nascom & Gemini Preliminary MMBasic docs & my PCB designs |
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thwill Guru Joined: 16/09/2019 Location: United KingdomPosts: 3839 |
I think that is a red-herring, my understanding is that the purpose of the G2 was simply to provide a CMM2 that was easier to manufacture ... it just got a little (unnecessary) gold-plating. The G2 is completely backward compatible and both G1 and G2 can be overclocked to the same speed. Yes, the G2 has more memory, but the G1 already had more memory than any hobbyist was ever likely to use so the extra is basically "a waste". Does the G2 have another video mode ? I think it does, but IIRC it's one of those that you need super-vision to distinguish and unlikely to be used for writing games and demos. In terms of connectivity the G2 doesn't have anything that can't be cobbled onto the G1. Despite appearances to the contrary Peter is not an MMBasic porting machine ... though no doubt 1 month after the "completion" of the PicoMite he will be announcing his next target. Nothing quite like the confidence of one's peers to spur the work forward  .Best wishes, Tom Edited 2021-11-07 02:41 by thwill Game*Mite, CMM2 Welcome Tape, Creaky old text adventures |
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| Mixtel90 Guru Joined: 05/10/2019 Location: United KingdomPosts: 5715 |
There would probably be far more future in MMB4L running on a Pi than in the TTO VGA. You get USB and HDMI connections for a start. Even if GPIO had to be done on a separate board (to get more of it and analogue inputs) it would be worth it. More expensive than the TTO VGA, but with much better hardware support and still affordable to most. And you can get fancy cases. :) Mick Zilog Inside! nascom.info for Nascom & Gemini Preliminary MMBasic docs & my PCB designs |
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| mclout999 Guru Joined: 05/07/2020 Location: United StatesPosts: 430 |
You are right on the PI Zero 2 W (basically a low memory PI 3)is a much better platform with much more potential. I just like The TTO VGA for its simplicity. |
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| RetroJoe Senior Member Joined: 06/08/2020 Location: CanadaPosts: 290 |
Exactly :) There are a small number of GPIO pins exposed on the TTGO PCB if you really needed to wire up a few LEDs or input switches, but I believe the retro crowd doesn't really care about that capability (Wifi and Bluetooth, OTOH, is an itch the CMM2 community continually wants to scratch). In the same vein, I'm guessing the majority of Raspberry Pi's out there have nothing connected to their GPIO pins. Whether porting MMBasic is "worth it" or not would require reading Peter and Geoff's mind, and from where I sit they are quite enigmatic about where the MMBasic and xMite journey is going. Obviously, the PicoMite was deemed to be "worth it", but I recall Peter initially shat on the RP2040's capabilities, so hopefully he'll take a closer look at the TTGO VGA, as I believe a "CMM Junior" would be a terrific addition to the Mite lineup. Enjoy Every Sandwich / Joe P. |
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| Mixtel90 Guru Joined: 05/10/2019 Location: United KingdomPosts: 5715 |
I remain unconvinced, sorry. :) MMBasic is more or less based round its I/O capabilities. It's what it's really good at. Take away the I/O and there's really no reason to use it - you may as well use any general purpose programming language. There is already a functional Tiny BASIC for the TTGO VGA which, I assume, is more in line with that device's capabilities (I haven't investigated further). Porting MMBasic to it would be a challenge - if someone wanted to do it for fun then I'm sure it would keep them happy for some time - but due to the limitations of the completed package it seems rather pointless to me. Incidentally, as MMBasic for the CMM2 depends on the SDcard some/all of the few I/O pins aren't available. You don't even save a lot on space. You still need a 5v supply. It's not all that cheap in the UK either (21.18 UKP on Amazon) unless you buy via Ali Express or Banggood. The TTGO VGA is a lovely little thing and I'm impressed by its capabilities, I'm just not sure that it's the right platform for something like MMBasic. Mick Zilog Inside! nascom.info for Nascom & Gemini Preliminary MMBasic docs & my PCB designs |
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Geoffg Guru Joined: 06/06/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 3165 |
This thread has wandered over a couple of subjects but I would like to comment on the practicality of porting MMBasic to other platforms. When I first wrote MMBasic (about 10 years ago) I soon started receiving requests for it to run on alternate chips and modules. I think that this comes from Windows which runs on many different platforms and people get used to that feature and expect the same with MMBasic. The problem is that it is a huge job porting something complex like MMBasic. It takes months of effort which is a lot to ask of someone who is working in their spare time purely for the fun of it. It is simply not something that you would do without a very good reason. This is something that electronic engineers often overlook, it is more difficult and takes longer to write complex software for a new CPU module than it took the engineer to design and make the thing in the first place. Take the TTGO VGA for example. It is a neat package, smaller and cheaper than the CMM2 with some different features. But it is not hugely different from the CMM2 and it will not attract a vastly different audience. Also, there are many other modules like this popping up all the time - so, if you spend months porting MMBasic to the TTGO VGA, will you also do the same for the next module that arrives, and the one after that? This is not to say that Peter, or perhaps someone else, will not give it a go. They might do it for the intellectual challenge (that is a compelling reason on its own) but they will not do it just because it is a bit better in one aspect or another. Geoff Geoff Graham - http://geoffg.net |
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| Volhout Guru Joined: 05/03/2018 Location: NetherlandsPosts: 3513 |
I think this thread shows exactly the answer to the question the thread starter asked: Why is there so little going on about the CMM2 ? The answer seems to be: Because everyone has played with the toy, and is looking to something new to play with. And because Peter has so much energy and time, they may even get it. There is simply an abbundance of toys to play with (look at the thread that sums all MMBasic ports and platforms, I thought there where 20+). And CMM2 has become just one of them (the flagship, but not everyone needs a flaship). This is human, look at young kids. If they have 1 toy, they invent ever new ways to play with it. If they have many, they change toy often, and none of them is used to full potential. Volhout. PicomiteVGA PETSCII ROBOTS |
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| JohnS Guru Joined: 18/11/2011 Location: United KingdomPosts: 3654 |
About 30 (?) years ago I wondered when the hardware people would stop making new things which are incredibly different to program yet not much different/new in terms of features - and instead make the new stuff easy or the same to program. Still hasn't happened :( Result: lots of things get poor software support. Deservedly. John |
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| frnno967 Senior Member Joined: 02/10/2020 Location: United StatesPosts: 104 |
I would like to clarify that my comments were not speaking to programming/firmware differences between Gen 1 and Gen 2, merely the presence of a built-in ESP module on the board and how it is hooked up by default. Not expecting that any programming code will need to change in Maxiterm other than some strings explaining that the ESP module will probably be on COM x or so. I did read that the GPIO connector orientation changed between Gen 1 and Gen 2, so my Wifi modem board will likely not be compatible with Gen 2 without a redesign (or 40-pin extender), but it is unnecessary with Gen 2 so no big issue there. Jay Crutti: Ham Radio Operator, K5JCJ. Computer Enthusiast. Musician. Engineer. |
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Grogster Admin Group  Joined: 31/12/2012 Location: New ZealandPosts: 9060 |
Correct. Peter came up with the PCB design for all the SMD on the top and nothing on the bottom, to aid the factory assembly process, but at the same time, he made the RAM chip bigger(yes, does support one more higher-res video mode with that extra RAM), and added the native mouse support. Other then that, as you say, it is just a G1, and as you ALSO say, both the G1 and G2 are backwards compatible. It took a reasonable amount of time to hand-solder the RAM chip and it's caps on the bottom of the G1, whereas with all the parts on the top, you can program, test, case one up and have it out the door in much less time if you're not sitting there all afternoon soldering RAM chips and caps on the bottom side.  Yes, I remember that too!  So I was as surprised as the rest of us when he did an about-turn on that and suddenly up popped the PicoMite project. I'm glad he did though, as at the price of the PicoMite module, you really can't get much cheaper then that!  Perhaps it was the super-cheap price-point that made him have another look at the port, and after playing around a bit, he must have warmed to the RP2040 chip after all! Smoke makes things work. When the smoke gets out, it stops! |
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| RetroJoe Senior Member Joined: 06/08/2020 Location: CanadaPosts: 290 |
You can't really blame "the hardware people" - they are just abiding by Moore's Law. If you could make a device that was twice as powerful for half the cost, every 1.5 years, why wouldn't you? And, in the main, the computing world has converged on ARM and X64, whose instruction sets are largely unchanging. No, I place most of the blame on "the software people". How many operating systems, browsers, programming languages, and applications do we really need? Every time I look around, there's a new Linux distribution, IDE or funky new language appearing, and in every software category you can name, there are hundreds of different vendors, all of them with incompatible apps and APIs, and all of them trying to lock you into their proprietary platform. Microsoft is dutifully trotting out Windows 11 - why? So they can make your desktop wallpaper even more "dynamic"? I am a "Windows 7 Forever" guy - it was rock-solid, had every feature I needed, and every Windows release since then has been bloated, buggy and built for the benefit of Microsoft, not its customers. Enjoy Every Sandwich / Joe P. |
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hitsware2 Guru Joined: 03/08/2019 Location: United StatesPosts: 705 |
Personally : The fact that it SO much simpler to update the firmware on the PicoMite than the CMM2, is a very compelling reason to switch. my site |
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| zeitfest Guru Joined: 31/07/2019 Location: AustraliaPosts: 377 |
+1. It is a bit bizarre, isn't it. However the bloat continues .With physical resources there is an economic rule saying that the price long-term (ie past the supply-and-demand cycles) falls to the cost of extraction. But I guess software is so copyable at zip cost so there always has to be new stuff ("requiring new hardware" of course) for any on-going money in it. Personally I think companies should be restricted to the same lifespan as people, which would lead to evolution instead of the "too big to fail" giants adding sludge. |
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| JohnS Guru Joined: 18/11/2011 Location: United KingdomPosts: 3654 |
I would, but I'd also make the I/O etc the same as for previous hardware wherever possible and where not I'd make it simple to set up & use. They don't do that. Not at all. That's WHY I blame the hardware people. We've almost standardised on the actual CPU instructions (8-bit bytes, x86 / 64, arm) but the hard stuff of porting an OS (or program like MMBasic) is the I/O which is so VERY different and complicated when it need not be. That then means fast porting of programs such as MMBasic is generally not possible and in many cases it will never be done. All that, and then (as you mention) there can be proprietary issues on top. Also, what might be termed ego issues (thus all the Linux distros - no, they're not needed). But I was trying explain why MMBasic won't be available on many many hardware platforms - the I/O etc make it far too hard. John Edited 2021-11-08 17:57 by JohnS |
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| Mixtel90 Guru Joined: 05/10/2019 Location: United KingdomPosts: 5715 |
+1 As far as I know there has never been an easier platform (for anything) to update than the PicoMite. It's even easier than the Pico - no button to hold down while you plug in! If you can copy a program onto a USB stick then you can do it. @RetroJoe The hardware spec will always increase because users want a more powerful, faster system. That helps satisfy the demands of the software people. The software spec will always increase because users want a more powerful, easier system. That places more demands on hardware. At the end of the day the cycle is driven by the users. (A bit of profit along the way helps a lot too :) ). I'm getting on a bit and don't need the bandwagon hassle now. I've nothing that can run W11 and no incentive to upgrade to anything that will. I might build a FPGA-based CP/M system into a CMM2 G1 size case. :) Edited 2021-11-08 19:10 by Mixtel90 Mick Zilog Inside! nascom.info for Nascom & Gemini Preliminary MMBasic docs & my PCB designs |
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| Volhout Guru Joined: 05/03/2018 Location: NetherlandsPosts: 3513 |
Maybe a small reminder that we would not be discussing on this forum without the continuous software development happened during last 20+ years. These guys are working now on the technology that you will use in 10 years. You may not want it, be happy with what you have now, but the world turns. No way to stop it. PicomiteVGA PETSCII ROBOTS |
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