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Forum Index : Microcontroller and PC projects : Pi Bare Metal
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lew247 Guru  Joined: 23/12/2015 Location: United KingdomPosts: 1702 |
I have been doing a lot of research and I found the following information IF anyone is interested in trying to make an MMBasic Pi Bare Metal Port I'm not saying it's possible, but it looks like it might be, I just don't have the knowledge to do it myself What started me looking was the fact that CircuitPython on Raspberry Pi (Bare Metal / No OS) can be run on the following Pi boards: Raspberry Pi Zero W Raspberry Pi Zero 2 W Raspberry Pi 4 Model B - 2 GB RAM Raspberry Pi Compute Module 4 IO Board Raspberry Pi Compute Module 4 - 4GB RAM, 32GB MMC and WiFi The information for that is here I then done more searching and I found the following MicroPython on bare metal Raspberry Pi Zero / Zero W / 2 here Quick reference for the Raspberry Pi Zero W MicroPython here Bare Metal Wi-Fi driver for the Raspberry Pi The latest Linux Wi-Fi driver for the Pi by the manufacturer of the chip used here Datasheet for the Wi-Fi/Bluetooth chips used in the Raspberry Pi in the Pi Zero W [https://www.infineon.com/dgdl/Infineon-YW43438_Single-Chip_IEEE_802.11_b_g_n_MAC_Baseband_Radio_with_Integrated_Bluetooth_5.1_Compliance-AdditionalTechnicalInformation-v14_00-EN.pdf?fileId=8ac78c8c7d0d8da4017d0ee1ee20680a]here Datasheet for the Wi-Fi/Bluetooth chip in the Pi 3B+ here Datasheet for the Wi-Fi/Bluetooth chip in the Pi 3B+ here Software and tools Raspberry Pi Wi-Bluetooth here contains several this for Pi Zero drivers.zip Anyone able to make anything out of them? |
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Mixtel90 Guru Joined: 05/10/2019 Location: United KingdomPosts: 7937 |
It's a pity that none of the bare metal CircuitPython supported boards appears to be available ... Mick Zilog Inside! nascom.info for Nascom & Gemini Preliminary MMBasic docs & my PCB designs |
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| Michal Senior Member  Joined: 02/02/2022 Location: PolandPosts: 125 |
There was (and is still alive) such an interesting project Ultibo (microkernel compiled in fpc). It is a pity that it is little known. I think he just ran out of a built-in Interpreter for some language. Michal |
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| Mixtel90 Guru Joined: 05/10/2019 Location: United KingdomPosts: 7937 |
There doesn't seem to be much bare metal stuff for the Pi boards. I think Peter has a good point - what you write for one won't run on the next version, especially if the GPU or Broadcom SOC has changed. A minor change in the GPU can stop the Broadcom booting at all. Mick Zilog Inside! nascom.info for Nascom & Gemini Preliminary MMBasic docs & my PCB designs |
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| matherp Guru Joined: 11/12/2012 Location: United KingdomPosts: 10315 |
Lewis Anyone can look up the references and it is almost certainly do-able. HOWEVER, my estimate would be 500-1000 hours of work (my hours). It is vanishingly unlikely that anyone is going to take it on. Some time ago someone contacted me via Geoff with a view to a joint effort on a bare metal port. I said no and he said he would take it on himself - that was 2 years ago..... Feel free to keep raising it but there are few TBS members who could do it and fewer still with the time and probably none with the inclination |
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| Michal Senior Member Joined: 02/02/2022 Location: PolandPosts: 125 |
And the implementation of your version (for Windows) on Debian is a very big effort? Michal Edited 2022-02-13 04:48 by Michal |
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thwill Guru Joined: 16/09/2019 Location: United KingdomPosts: 4311 |
For what it's worth I'm with Peter. I'm really quite an accomplished C programmer and I suspect by cribbing from other bare metal Pi projects I could fill in the missing pieces of hardware knowledge in my arsenal. Even so I would double Peter's estimate and at 10 hours a week available for such a project on my best week I'd probably be looking at 3+ years, potentially many more ... ain't going to happen  .Best wishes, Tom Edited 2022-02-13 04:50 by thwill MMBasic for Linux, Game*Mite, CMM2 Welcome Tape, Creaky old text adventures |
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| matherp Guru Joined: 11/12/2012 Location: United KingdomPosts: 10315 |
About 50 hours so far and other than sound all the hard stuff is now done Edited 2022-02-13 04:56 by matherp |
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| Michal Senior Member Joined: 02/02/2022 Location: PolandPosts: 125 |
wow! Can we expect your Debian (hopefully also on Raspberry) version in the near future? Michal |
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| matherp Guru Joined: 11/12/2012 Location: United KingdomPosts: 10315 |
No: I don't do Linux but its a simple WIN32 app so I assume it should "Wine" Edited 2022-02-13 05:28 by matherp |
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| lizby Guru Joined: 17/05/2016 Location: United StatesPosts: 3378 |
One question (not to imply that I have any interest in doing the work): is "bare metal" the same on the Pi-ZW and the the Pi-Z2W and PIs 3 & 4? PicoMite, Armmite F4, SensorKits, MMBasic Hardware, Games, etc. on fruitoftheshed |
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| matherp Guru Joined: 11/12/2012 Location: United KingdomPosts: 10315 |
No: and that is a major issue. Each one is a different port |
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| lew247 Guru Joined: 23/12/2015 Location: United KingdomPosts: 1702 |
Does the Kernel contain the information (drivers) for the board? or what does it actually contain? |
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| Mixtel90 Guru Joined: 05/10/2019 Location: United KingdomPosts: 7937 |
A linux kernel usually contains some of the drivers (basic display, keyboard, mouse but it can be a lot more), but not all. Exactly what is in it depends on what was included when it was compiled so it can vary. Mick Zilog Inside! nascom.info for Nascom & Gemini Preliminary MMBasic docs & my PCB designs |
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| JohnS Guru Joined: 18/11/2011 Location: United KingdomPosts: 4044 |
If you mean Linux kernel, effectively yes. (And all the painfully different hardware is effectively coped with there.) Bare metal of course has no Linux kernel/drivers & would have to re-do all that stuff. John |
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| JohnS Guru Joined: 18/11/2011 Location: United KingdomPosts: 4044 |
If you consider 1. a version (for Windows) and 2. on Debian Then #1 would be huge had it been bare metal, but isn't because the OS does so much. #2 depends either on WINE or on compiling/linking with code which mimics whatever APIs etc Peter has used. John Edited 2022-02-14 01:02 by JohnS |
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| lew247 Guru Joined: 23/12/2015 Location: United KingdomPosts: 1702 |
So If we had the "bare metal" Kernal used for the Pi Zero W,Pi Zero 2 W and the Pi 4B then we could use that IF anyone was to try and port MMBasic? |
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| Mixtel90 Guru Joined: 05/10/2019 Location: United KingdomPosts: 7937 |
If you know what drivers are in it and how to use them it would be a start. Then you need the specific drivers for each of those boards. True bare metal doesn't need drivers but in practice you don't know how to use the GPU or the Broadcom chip and at least some of that info isn't available unless you sign NDA agreements. Hence you will probably need at least some of the firmware from Raspberry Pi. That will be in the form of libraries that may or may not be published. Not only that, but the different boards don't use the same chipset - or they may do but with different parts/modes enabled by Broadcom. The best you'll probably manage is with a stripped down kernel. Take out everything that's not needed to make it ultralight then write for that. It's not bare metal but at least you stand a chance of getting something to work. Even then, there's no official way (yet) to give access to the GPIO at user level, only as root. That's not safe. It was so much easier when CPU manufacturers went out of their way to give you lots and lots of information on their products! Mick Zilog Inside! nascom.info for Nascom & Gemini Preliminary MMBasic docs & my PCB designs |
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| Michal Senior Member Joined: 02/02/2022 Location: PolandPosts: 125 |
The Ultibo I mentioned, created such kernels: 30-10-2021 04:32 3115720 kernel.img 30-10-2021 04:32 3156720 kernel7.img 30-10-2021 04:33 3181616 kernel7l.img Michal |
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| Mixtel90 Guru Joined: 05/10/2019 Location: United KingdomPosts: 7937 |
I think RPi list a minimal kernel. I'm pretty sure they used to anyway. There's no desktop or anything. Mick Zilog Inside! nascom.info for Nascom & Gemini Preliminary MMBasic docs & my PCB designs |
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