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Forum Index : Microcontroller and PC projects : PicoMite VGA Keyboard
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| robert.rozee Guru  Joined: 31/12/2012 Location: New ZealandPosts: 2290 |
Silicon Chip may need to run this as a followup project: https://github.com/10110111/usb2ps2conv (USB keyboard to PS/2 port converter) as al18 points out, this can also be done using a second pico. this is a problem that has been raised on the forum in the past, and been shot down by those claiming that it is still easy to buy a USB keyboard that supports PS/2 via a passive adapter (just swapping around wires). addendum, see further reading here: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/microcontrollers/converting-usb-hid-devices-(keyboard-and-mouse)-to-ps2/ cheers, rob :-) Edited 2022-05-13 13:05 by robert.rozee |
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Geoffg Guru Joined: 06/06/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 3165 |
I don't quite know what you mean by that crack but we went through the whole dual USB/PS2 keyboard thing with the CMM2. Typical keyboards that have been tested and work include Logitech K120 or K270 or K400+ or K800, HP SK2885, Lenovo KU-0225 and Microsoft 600. For example, the Logitech K120 costs about $20 and all you need is a passive USB PS2 converter (typically $8). Many people glibly believe that implementing a full USB keyboard interface is easy and then go on to ask why did we not do it. The truth is that it is not that easy, particularly on the RPi Pico where there is only one USB interface which is already in use. Geoff Geoff Graham - http://geoffg.net |
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Mixtel90 Guru Joined: 05/10/2019 Location: United KingdomPosts: 5737 |
It isn't, and won't be for the foreseeable future. The USB on the PicoMite is used in a different way. It relies on some open source software called TinyUSB, which is reported to have strange problems when used for keyboards. Some people have said that they've managed to get one working, but others have reported that it doesn't always work or is intermittent. Because of this Peter has decided (wisely, IMHO) not to support USB keyboards until TinyUSB works correctly and is stable. Even then it will probably depend on what resources it eventually requires. Changing from TinyUSB to building something else to do the job is decidedly non-trivial. Writing a USB stack is not an easy project at all. :( Edited 2022-05-13 16:48 by Mixtel90 Mick Zilog Inside! nascom.info for Nascom & Gemini Preliminary MMBasic docs & my PCB designs |
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| matherp Guru Joined: 11/12/2012 Location: United KingdomPosts: 8592 |
May be different down under but ebay in the UK has dozens of listings for brand new PS2 keyboards from makers such as HP, DEC, Cherry, Acer etc. All with the correct plug and no adapter needed. Typical price including shipping in the UK is GBP15. I recently bought a superb DEC keyboard for GBP9.99 which I'm now using as my main keyboard as it is much better than the USB one I was using and my X299 motherboard happens to have a PS2 port Edited 2022-05-13 17:09 by matherp |
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Grogster Admin Group  Joined: 31/12/2012 Location: New ZealandPosts: 9066 |
Exactly. It is way, way more complicated and much more involved, then talking to a PS/2 keyboard, so I fully understand why native USB keyboards are not supported. EDIT: I seem to recall from the CMM2 development, that getting the USB keyboard to work on that unit, was a real struggle for Peter at the time. It's not just the stack, but also that some keyboards introduce their own data bytes for some things as part of the packet. This will confuse the CMM2 USB handler, if it get any non-standard data packet(s). Easy to deal with under Windoze, MAC or Linux drivers, VERY hard to deal with in a one-chip concept like the CMM2, where it expects all USB keyboards to output the same standard data packet, and many DON'T. Again, it's not a problem on a PC, cos the driver or the OS itself, will manage that without issue. Edited 2022-05-13 17:29 by Grogster Smoke makes things work. When the smoke gets out, it stops! |
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phil99 Guru Joined: 11/02/2018 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1795 |
" Logitech K120 costs about $20 " For New Holland and Van Diemen's Land Bunnings $19 Big W $25 Office Works $24 And there are others. Aotearoa probably similar. Edited 2022-05-13 18:17 by phil99 |
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palcal Guru Joined: 12/10/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1804 |
I didn't read any of the posts about the CMM2, wasn't interested in gaming, so missed the KB discussion. However I did eventually build a CMM2 for the fun of it but the KB that worked with the CMM2 won't work with the PicoMite VGA. I sold the CMM2 soon after. I will buy a Logitech K120 when in town tomorrow in case the old Honeywell does not work when I change the plug to PS2. "It is better to be ignorant and ask a stupid question than to be plain Stupid and not ask at all" |
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| matherp Guru Joined: 11/12/2012 Location: United KingdomPosts: 8592 |
Not sure where Geoff's list came from. It is certainly the list of USB keyboards that are known compatible with the CMM2 but whether they are ps2 compatible...... I can't find a ps2 adapter to test the Lenovo quoted but googling casts doubt on the Logitech https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/400800-USB-to-PS-2 |
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| phil99 Guru Joined: 11/02/2018 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1795 |
The Microsoft 600 is one that was proved to work with the F4, if memory serves. $25 at Bunnings, up to $30 at others. |
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| Mixtel90 Guru Joined: 05/10/2019 Location: United KingdomPosts: 5737 |
I got a NOS DEC keyboard off ebay too, Peter. IIRC it was the same price - may even be the same one. :) Lovely keyboard and works perfectly. Brand new in its original box. Mick Zilog Inside! nascom.info for Nascom & Gemini Preliminary MMBasic docs & my PCB designs |
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| palcal Guru Joined: 12/10/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1804 |
I will hold off buying the Logitech KB until it is proven, could get expensive buying KBs until I find one that works. "It is better to be ignorant and ask a stupid question than to be plain Stupid and not ask at all" |
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| Geoffg Guru Joined: 06/06/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 3165 |
When the CMM2 was released there was a lot of discussion related to keyboards that worked (or did not work) as PS2 keyboards (ie, not in USB mode). I listed some of the keyboards reported as tested and working. While PS2 keyboards are not as popular as they used to be there are still plenty for purchase in Oz. A quick Google will find more than enough: - Altronics D2111 • Keyboard Mini Multimedia USB/PS2 $23 - Scorptec Mini Keyboard USB & PS2 Black $19 - Kogan - Wiretek Keyboard full sized PS2 $30 and many more NEW on eBay and Amazon from $10 upwards. Why all this fuss over nothing? Geoff Geoff Graham - http://geoffg.net |
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| robert.rozee Guru Joined: 31/12/2012 Location: New ZealandPosts: 2290 |
i didn't intend to offend anyone, but am firmly stating that the PS/2 keyboard issue has been raised in the past - and yes, i was one of the people who raised it in quite unequivocal terms. not for reasons of wanting to 'win' any argument or score points over anyone, but because i see it as a real problem that sits out there in the future. as time goes by, the availability of PS/2 compatible (including via a passive adapter) keyboards will diminish. many of those keyboards available as new will be stock that has been in the supply pipeline for quite some time. if not the keyboards themselves, then the controllers contained therein have been in the supply pipeline for quite some time. this is simply how the world's "manufacturing machine" works. and as for older 2nd hand 'pure' PS/2 interface keyboards, they are a diminishing pool. there are very few of us who keep a stockpile - i do have in my garage several genuine PS/2 interface keyboards, for use in case of emergencies. but i am rather the exception! like it or not, some folks building the PicoMite will hit keyboard problems. they may not understand the need to find a 'suitable' USB keyboard, may not know about heading to ebay, and may be fooled when told by a sales person that all they need is a passive converter. after striking two keyboard 'failures to proceed' in a row, most will cease to be PicoMite users. and finally, at some point there will be no more PS/2 keyboards available. just as surely as at some point there will be no more oil left, all the helium will have escaped our world, and the last moa (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moa ) will have been eaten. the problem that needs solving may be extremely difficult, but that does not remove any necessity to solving it. peter: have you heard of the term 'USB boot keyboard'? see appendix F of: https://www.usb.org/sites/default/files/documents/hid1_11.pdf "Appendix F: Legacy Keyboard Implementation, F.3 Boot Keyboard Requirements". this is a simplified method for a BIOS to talk to a USB keyboard, with some reduced functionality, and may (or may not) be of use. cheers, rob :-) Edited 2022-05-14 00:36 by robert.rozee |
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| matherp Guru Joined: 11/12/2012 Location: United KingdomPosts: 8592 |
I have no intention of spending even a single minute looking at USB keyboard for the PicoMite. The source is out there and has been for months now but as no-one else has contributed a single line of code so far I wouldn't hold your breathe. |
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| JohnS Guru Joined: 18/11/2011 Location: United KingdomPosts: 3662 |
It's probably just tough if/when that happens. Maybe there wil be a better Pico USB stack by then, but don't count on it. John |
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| Mixtel90 Guru Joined: 05/10/2019 Location: United KingdomPosts: 5737 |
It's also a possibility that way before there is any real shortage of PS/2 keyboards the issue will be solved by newer versions of the Pico - or something that replaces it - that handle USB natively. Even a fully working version of TinyUSB might be on the cards! Remember that it's tiny because it has reduced functionality though. It may not be *possible* to fit a full implementation onto a RP2040. The PicoMIte isn't going to use up all the PS/2 keyboards on ebay at the moment - the retro computing experience isn't that popular or they would all be gone already. If people are fussy about *having* to have modern mechanical keyboards with a PS/2 interface then that's their problem, I'm afraid. They've obviously managed without a PicoMite so far. :) *Eventually* USB will be superseded anyway - technology doesn't stand still. Worrying about having to have compatibility at some unspecified time in the future is probably a bit pointless. Mick Zilog Inside! nascom.info for Nascom & Gemini Preliminary MMBasic docs & my PCB designs |
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| Geoffg Guru Joined: 06/06/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 3165 |
At the risk of "shooting you down" again Rob the problem is not immediately urgent. Yes PS2 keyboards will vanish someday, yes you need some smarts to find them today, but there are still plenty about and if a constructor is going to be fooled by a "sales person" then there is no hope anyway. Building a USB keyboard into the PicoMite would be a major undertaking and would cause the loss of the USB console. I'm not sure what you really expect but remember that all this is done for the fun of it, not for profit. Geoff Geoff Graham - http://geoffg.net |
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| Amnesie Guru Joined: 30/06/2020 Location: GermanyPosts: 384 |
Again, there IS still new and cheap + quality (mechanical!!) USB keyboards that should be available in the US (?) too! Look for Cherry CHERRY G80-1800 or even cheaper with small footprint: Cherry G84-4100 (in Germany around 49Euro ~ 51 USD) They all come with a USB connector but support PS/2 - I am writing on them right now. Greetings Daniel |
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| al18 Senior Member  Joined: 06/07/2019 Location: United StatesPosts: 175 |
Peter and Geoff, Thanks for the feedback. The choice to go with a PS/2 interface now makes a lot more sense. I remember similar discussions back in 2006 about the Parallax Propeller. VGA output, PS/2 mouse and Keyboard could all be interfaced with a handful of resistors but Chip - the Propeller designer mentioned adding a USB interface added a lot more complexity and was not included in the design. |
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| JohnS Guru Joined: 18/11/2011 Location: United KingdomPosts: 3662 |
To see why USB is awkward to add without hardware doing it, look at some of the code which tries to bitbang it or read the detailed USB doc. USB is a really complex nasty thing when all that nastiness isn't hidden in hardware. John |
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