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Forum Index : Microcontroller and PC projects : BLOCKLY MMBASIC software
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| Intellecta Newbie  Joined: 07/05/2016 Location: AustraliaPosts: 22 |
Dear All, We have been trying to introduce micromites into Australian schools as a fantastic programming environment that really addresses the coding requirements. However, having a battle with entrenched arduino teachers who state that there are huge amounts of books etc on the arduino and there are a plethora of graphics interfaces. Personally I like the flowchart software environment of the PICAXE in terms of planning etc. Keep hitting the wall on this argument. I have demonstrated the amazing TFT graphics, talk about the early programming environment in BASIC with Gates/Jobs etc to no avail. Even demonstrate that BASIC was designed for teaching. It looks like BASIC is stepped over in most of these environments. Any ideas on the graphics environment? Thanks Tony Pugatschew |
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| robert.rozee Guru  Joined: 31/12/2012 Location: New ZealandPosts: 2442 |
not so much on the graphical environment, though there is MMedit that many folks on here seem to use. personally, i stick to a terminal emulator (teraterm) and mmbasic's onboard editor (with the colour-coding turned off!). you may like to have a look at the E-28, a micromite in an arduino nano footprint. it is ideal for placing on a breadboard and hooking up various sensor and other accessories to, with the data fed back to an attached PC over USB. here is the E-28 blurb if you are interested: 2017-05-26_051835_E-28_v1C_blurb.pdf there is also geoff's book "Getting Started with the Micromite" that could form the basis of a classroom workbook. it is available for download here: http://geoffg.net/micromite.html i'd suggest thinking over what one wants to be teaching in the classroom. is it how to design graphical interfaces with touchscreens and virtual buttons? or is it the basis of algorithms, collection and manipulation of data, calculation, logical program flow? concentrating on the ability of the micromite to drive a colour LCD and handle a GUI may be an impediment rather than an advantage to your cause. cheers, rob :-) |
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TassyJim Guru Joined: 07/08/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 6283 |
All you really need to teach programming is a pencil and paper, then TeraTerm to enter the code once the pencil has done it's thing. I do like the picaxe flowchart method although it's not something that I ever used. Jim VK7JH MMedit |
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| WhiteWizzard Guru Joined: 05/04/2013 Location: United KingdomPosts: 2944 |
Breaking into the Education market is certainly a challenge (trust me - I have been looking into this for a couple of years now). The major plus that the MicroMite has over all the existing products is 'ease-of-use' - this is undeniable. Let me quote a customer response I received just this morning to a question I ask all new customers: However, when trying to get into the education sector, you definitely need to introduce a 'complete educational package' - not just a 'new bit of kit'. And also need the backing support. Having a recognised product name helps so in 2017 I am trying to make the UK market aware of the MicroMite. This should help enter the education sector in 2018. With the excellent work Geoff has done with EPE, this 'awareness' is starting to head the right way - however, still a long journey to travel. One thing for sure IMHO, the MicroMite 'will get there' and become a serious contender to the RPi and Arduino . . .  WW |
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| JohnS Guru Joined: 18/11/2011 Location: United KingdomPosts: 4044 |
Are you aiming at the right ages and abilities? The mites can't possibly be right for all of them. Also, it's arguable that the mites are more hardware-oriented than software-oriented and that may be a problem for you. Or, maybe you can figure a way to make it an advantage. I hope you've got appropriate educational studies about what works in a learning environment for your target age range(s). John |
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| lizby Guru Joined: 17/05/2016 Location: United StatesPosts: 3378 |
I believe that one major thing for education which the picaxe has which the micromite does not (and which I miss) is the simulator. This enables moderately complex programs to be built and tested without any hardware at all. In the educational sector, this allows a rank beginner write a program to simulate a blinking LED without any risk that miss-wiring will burn out the part. Of course, with all the gui enhancements, a complete simulator for the micromite would be much more complicated than the picaxe simulator. PicoMite, Armmite F4, SensorKits, MMBasic Hardware, Games, etc. on fruitoftheshed |
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| Phil23 Guru Joined: 27/03/2016 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1667 |
Interesting, My 16 yr old son did some stuff with Arduino's back in year 10. Didn't learn much; they just pasted blocks of code in the editor & complied it. Nothing was typed up from scratch. More recently he's played on one of my E64's in MMedit & written a few simple things, code only no I/O, Lotto draws, Quiz's etc. Learnt a whole heap more in a few how's sittings than he did with the cut & paste. It's amazing how efficiently a Teenager can write code when you block their laptop Wifi access and say.... "I'll give your phone back when you've got it running". He's now doing software development in year 11, and they are using Python. He's often made the comment that MMbasic is better structured & has good rules. Phil |
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| isochronic Guru Joined: 21/01/2012 Location: AustraliaPosts: 689 |
I have had a play with the Arduino stuff for a while. The reality is that is very popular, ie, millions of sales and all sorts of copies clones etc, and cheap sensors and bits easily gettable - so despite my misgivings I had a go as it offers a market that is there already. In general it was designed to be a teaching platform, and it is brilliant for that scope. Very easy to start and use - too easy maybe, leading to script-kiddy activity instead of understanding - but then again an intro to a field should be quick to show results/feedback, especially when games like Halo are competing for mindshare. A simple module can be connected very quickly and results shown. Using it beyond its original scope is problematic, as the various assumptions made by different developers start clashing, a bugbear of C++ (multiple inheritence etc). So it doesn't necessarily scale well despite the marketing push. The entry level processing power is limited. So a single-task device works ok, but extending it to complex multiple tasks is iffy. The default serial-input buffer is 64 bytes which is insufficient, so data i/o is a bit ordinary and other channels are best. But - for education - it is there and doing it. There was/is now also a thing called "scratch" from MIT Media which is based on very similar hardware, with code-workshops for teaching primary levels etc. I don't know much about it but it seems well resourced (apart from a smalltalk heritage!!) and a hefty price is on the code teaching sessions. I guess that implies it isn't in schools much. |
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| JohnS Guru Joined: 18/11/2011 Location: United KingdomPosts: 4044 |
Scratch is used with (for example) Rpi and the micro:bit John |
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| JohnS Guru Joined: 18/11/2011 Location: United KingdomPosts: 4044 |
What a strange comment. I'm at a loss to understand it other than perhaps inexperience or poor teaching/attention. John |
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| robert.rozee Guru Joined: 31/12/2012 Location: New ZealandPosts: 2442 |
python: a language where structure is defined by whitespace and that lacks arrays. currently being involved in a development project using python that is numerically orientated, i can certainly sympathise with the lad. i do believe that python could be greatly improved by adding in begin ... end block definitions, along with support for arrays (using lists is a poor substitute). cheers, rob :-) |
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| WhiteWizzard Guru Joined: 05/04/2013 Location: United KingdomPosts: 2944 |
When talking about the education sector, assume a school- child (between 5 and 18) knows nothing regarding technology/coding/electronics. The first thing is to demonstrate is something that is FUN and makes them think 'WOW'. Also, assume it is not a coding lesson, or an electronics lesson, but an 'Innovation' lesson - the naming has a major impact on the way a classroom full of kids 'embrace' the moment. You do not want to talk about 'language structure', compiling, definitions, yawn,yawn . . . . Show them a couple of LEDs flashing on something like a 'face' that they have drawn, or make a robot buggy (that they have decorated) move forward and then stop and play a tune. Then tell them they can do this themselves in the next half hour. From experience, you can sit back and watch the excitement in the room as the kids go off and talk excitedly about what they are going to try and achieve. Kids of all ages understand on & off, and the older they are, they begin to understand 1 could mean on, and 0 could mean off. Then the meaning of binary is understood as they get older still. I have personally shown children from age 5 upwards how to write a few lines of code in MMBASIC to achieve the aforementioned results and I still stand by the fact that PIN(x)=1 and PIN(x)=0 can result in BIG SATISFACTION on children faces. I know this can be done on a multitude of devices, but the MicroMite does this the fastest (by a long way) in a classroom full of children (and a teacher who has not been educated by the 'MicroSoft school of Brainwashing'. Yes there is a ton of 'things' available for the Arduino, and the RPi, and yes, there is a ton of support for those products too - but there are also a ton of schools that have this equipment that is gathering dust in the cupboards due to 'lack of understanding' by the teachers. Python has its place, as does all the other hardware & software out there, but a serious 'stepping stone' product is undoubtedly the MicroMite & MMBASIC. I expect the 'systems people' out there to 'shoot-me-down', and that is the challenge I still face in that 'systems people' think BASIC is 'outdated' and inadequate' in todays world. My response is 'STEPPING STONE', or 'EASE-OF-USE', or 'SIMPLE AND FUN' . . . . . . WW |
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| Phil23 Guru Joined: 27/03/2016 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1667 |
Like Robert Mentioned, Begins & Ends. To easily see where Subs & Functions open & close & the way they can be easily viewed as blocks. Same applies with nested IF statements. They are particularly difficult to take into your head, at least for me a first glance. Declaring variables is the other thing he found to be a "Just do it" thing. I'm no Guru, but still found Python less than pleasing to read. Phil. |
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| Phil23 Guru Joined: 27/03/2016 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1667 |
Agree WW, Led's have blinked & so on, on an Arduino, But unfortunately that world seems to place too much Emphasis on Cut & Paste to get things running. Geoff's article in this months SC is an Excellent Educational piece, particularly where he explains how to put a start & stop button on the screen. Bare basics, drawing boxes, but very straightforward & easy to understand. That's the sort of stuff that can be taught & understood. I see to much taught today, that in the end is learn't to the point where the student is considered "Competent", yet not understood. Lesson Plans, Assessment Guides & "Delivery" Packages are something written under my roof every day. Phil. PS. I always considered Delivery to be for the Postie or freight guy. |
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| memberx Newbie Joined: 20/04/2012 Location: AustraliaPosts: 24 |
Quote from an expert. https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Edsger_W._Dijkstra You people are preaching to the converted few on this forum. "Basic is easier", that is completely relative. Go to other forums Arduino, Raspberry Pi etc. and argue your basic superiority. Nothing wrong with programming in basic if you have been hiding under the rock for the past 40 years and don't know any better, but in 2017 it is wrong to push it onto the kids for ALL reasons. |
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| WhiteWizzard Guru Joined: 05/04/2013 Location: United KingdomPosts: 2944 |
STEPPING STONE The quote referred to above is from a Computer Science Expert - one who has had a good career at that. And the term 'student' in that quote is referring to an 'older' child. However, before they are a 'student' they are a young 'child'. What most people miss is the fact you need to get children interested at a young age. Now is the aforementioned 'expert' and 'expert' in child behaviour in a classroom environment? NO he isn't. You only raise interest in young children by making things FUN. Once you have their attention, they get excited very quickly and will want to learn as they grow into a student. This is what I mean by 'Stepping Stone' AND, whatever equipment is used, it needs to be easy to use for the teacher. A classroom full of 30 young kids will mean you have 5minutes to 'strike'. I have done endless research since Oct 2014 on how technology is used in classroom environments and I can assure you that most solutions fail because they are too complex for the teacher to manage. The teacher (of young children) needs something that switches on, is ready to use immediately (no waiting for boot up, or finding missing SD cards), presses a few buttons, and demonstrates a FUN result. Hope this explains it better. I am not saying one technology is better overall than another - but I am saying there are 'suitable' technologies that take into account the environment in which they are being used. |
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| robert.rozee Guru Joined: 31/12/2012 Location: New ZealandPosts: 2442 |
that is his opinion. my opinion is that he is wrong. an interesting quote about Dijkstra from the same wikipaedia page is: "It would make him physically ill to think of programming in C++" (Donald Kunth). so while Dijkstra abhored BASIC, C++ made him physically sick, surely an even more extreme reaction. i guess all those arduino/C++ programmers are also mentally mutilated! if on philosophical grounds we exclude BASIC and derivatives, C++ and stylistic variants, what is left? cheers, rob :-) |
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led-bloon Senior Member  Joined: 21/12/2014 Location: AustraliaPosts: 207 |
My 2c worth .. I think until now there has not been a good enough platform to start the young programming MMBasic/MicroMite. Individual components '170, capacitor, breadboard, power supply and a USB-serial adapter, etc etc are good for teaching the basics of hardware (once the '170 has been programmed!) The Explore-28 module is now available. It is relatively cheap, ($20 Aus delivered) needs only a USB cable to power and communicate to a PC or tablet and is ideal for teaching the young the Basic language. A "kit" with this, connectors soldered in, an LED/resister with connectors (and anything else?) for say $25 Aus would be reasonable to get kids started here, flashing the LED with example code. Information pointing them to this WEB site, TeraTerm program and other relevant places/programs a must. Getting their attention/interest INITIALLY is getting something done quickly and easily. Hopefully leading to bigger & better things later. I do believe, as WW said, the MicroMite and/or MMBasic should/will be up there with Arduino & Raspberry Pi ok, possibly that's 3c worth, but then again, I'm paying for it! don Miss you George |
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panky Guru Joined: 02/10/2012 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1114 |
For an English speaking child, it is far easier for them to conceptualise in a programming language that uses natuaral language like command and function names to both create and debug a program than the esoteric and unintuitive commands in a language like C. Languages like C, C++ etc. are excellent for professional programmers and advanced learners but for someone to look down their nose and poo poo Basic, particularly advanced versions like MMBasic, is sheer proffessional programmer snobbery and unhelpful to young people learning to program. To think of a task and convert that to a running program for a beginner is, in my opinion, far simpler in MMBasic than almost any other language. For those that are similar, there are few if any better and cheaper programming environments than a 170 Micromite. It is true that those of us on the forum interested in the Micromite and MMBasic are passionate about our interest but uninformed rubbish about how poor MMBasic is compared to other languages grows very tiresome. Finally, to take a selective quote from the very eminent Mr. Djikstra from the 70's is as helpful as a bicycle is to a fish. Reading the complete article would be far greater help to anyone commenting on the topic. Doug. ... almost all of the Maximites, the MicromMites, the MM Extremes, the ArmMites, the PicoMite and loving it! |
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GoodToGo! Senior Member Joined: 23/04/2017 Location: AustraliaPosts: 188 |
I always thought an expert was 'A has-been drip under pressure'. And? Isn't everyone allowed their opinion? I'm not seeing any preaching going on. Just a collection of individuals having a discussion. Agreed. I don't believe any one programming language is more 'superior' to another. If it was, no other languages would exist. Each language has it's pro's and con's. One day we might end up with the 'perfect' coding langage. But we're not there yet. SUB RantOn Now, this comment is disappointing. While it's true everyone is entitled to their opinion, casting aspersions is a different matter. Looks like I've been hiding under a rock for the last 40 years. However that rock has meant that I now work on some of the most expensive pieces of modern technology the two largest aerospace manufacturers create on a daily basis. I can thank my playing around with BASIC as a child interested in Computers and electronics for that. What reasons, and 'all' is a lot, is it wrong to let kids code in a BASIC derivative in 2017? What makes it better 'pushing' arduino or Pi or C++ on to kids? Like WW said, BASIC is a good stepping stone to get a kid interested, moving on to other languages comes with time. For me it was Machine Language. END SUB Maybe take another bite of Arduino Pi(e), agree to disagree and leave us old rock hiding farts enjoy our very BASIC microcontroller programming. Cheers, Rock hiding GTG!  ...... Don't worry mate, it'll be GoodToGo! |
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