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Azure
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Posted: 13 January 2018 at 4:12pm | IP Logged Quote Azure

@palcal
Sorry I meant quite the opposite (it was a compliment).

@Paul_L
I do not have any issue with the post and understood your background and reasons for posting in the forum.

My comment was just an observation that we have such a vast amount of useful knowledge and experience in so many subject areas amongst the many great members of this forum.


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Paul_L
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Posted: 13 January 2018 at 5:33pm | IP Logged Quote Paul_L

@Azure -- gottcha! This forum does cover a lot of diverse areas!
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palcal
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Posted: 13 January 2018 at 6:35pm | IP Logged Quote palcal

@ Azure
OK I understand now "flat out trying to respond", our ozzie lingo again.
'flat out' can mean having trouble to do so.
'flat out" can also mean busy as anything.
I took it to be the former when you meant the latter.
Sorry. Paul.

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Azure
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Posted: 13 January 2018 at 7:33pm | IP Logged Quote Azure

All good then. But is the cup half empty or half full?
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mikeb
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Posted: 13 January 2018 at 7:52pm | IP Logged Quote mikeb

Engineering Fail

The glass is twice as big as it needs to be

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palcal
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Posted: 14 January 2018 at 6:47am | IP Logged Quote palcal

@ Azure
Or it could be "Flat out like a lizard drinking"
@ mikeb
Very good I haven't heard that before.
Paul.

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chronic
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Posted: 14 January 2018 at 12:39pm | IP Logged Quote chronic

Would it be be worth re-using a car aircon as a small-area cooler ? Probably a bit noisy to sleep through.
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palcal
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Posted: 14 January 2018 at 2:03pm | IP Logged Quote palcal

You would need a fair size electric motor to drive it and it would be a messy installation. I just bought a split for my bedroom for $540, you can't hear them running when on low fan.
Paul.

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Paul_L
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Posted: 14 January 2018 at 2:44pm | IP Logged Quote Paul_L

@chronic -- I suppose I could jury rig almost anything, but that's not what I'm trying to do.

I installed this abortion back in 2012 in order to curtail the $10,000 per year cost of fuel oil. It did that admirably well but something, probably too much flux residue left in the system by a really sloppy soldering job by the original assembler, caused it to fail.

Now, 5 years later, I'm interested in even higher efficiency. I'm thinking about larger heat exchangers, variable speed or multiple smaller compressors, and less electric consumption pumping water through needlessly inefficient heat exchangers.

Specifically I'm trying to find out what the efficiency will be for a condenser or evaporator coil immersed in a tank of water which depends on convection to move heat into or out of the coil.

This thing has still been using about 28 MWhr of power a year at a cost of nearly $3400! I should be able to do better than that.

Paul in NY
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robert.rozee
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Posted: 14 January 2018 at 2:57pm | IP Logged Quote robert.rozee

firstly: i've found this thread really interesting, even though i don't understand much about heatpumps.

regarding the electricity consumed pumping water round the system, how would it work out having a large header tank high up that held a water reservoir, and a windmill to pump the water out of the aircon and up into said header tank? for times when there was insufficient wind to pump the required volume of water, you could have a backup electric pump - possibly with solar panels.

just a crazy idea that came to mind! in new zealand (and australia) many rural properties used to use (multiple) small windmills to pump irrigation water from underground aquifers.


cheers,
rob :-)
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palcal
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Posted: 14 January 2018 at 5:20pm | IP Logged Quote palcal

I doubt flux residue was the problem, more like if the superheat setting was wrong, air conditioning compressors rely on the cool gas coming back from the evaporator for cooling.
To use that amount of electricity this thing must run almost continuously.
You could move to a better climate.
Paul.

Edit... I just calculated that your electricity cost is about 12 cents for 1 Kwh,
here in Oz it is about 25 cents, and we call this the lucky country.

Edited by palcal on 14 January 2018 at 5:24pm


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Paul_L
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Posted: 14 January 2018 at 10:38pm | IP Logged Quote Paul_L

@Rob -- right now the temperature here is 8F (-13C). Last week it hit -14F (-25C). My yard slopes upward from my patio by about 23 feet. The cellar floor is 4 feet below the patio. I buried 6000 feet of 3/4" HDPE pipe 7 feet deep in a rectangular grid in a hole 100' x 60' toward the top of the sloped yard. 2" HDPE pipe feeds this rectangular grid of pipes. The pump that pushes water through this heat exchanger at the rate of about 25 gallons per minute is 1/3 HP or about 250 W. A 5F temperature rise at 25 gallons per minute (200 pounds per minute, 12,000 pounds per hour) produces 60,000 BTU/hour which is equivalent to 17.5 KWh per hour. The Freon compressor and pumps consume about 5.2 Kw to produce this 17.5 Kw of heat.

The header tank would probably have to be elevated above the top of the yard exchanger at the top of the slope and would probably freeze solid. The ground freezes to a depth of about 2 feet so the exchanger grid is well below the frozen zone. The exchanger captures low density geothermal heat drifting upward through the crust of the earth from the molten iron core of the earth 100 miles below. The low density of the heat dictates the large surface area of the exchanger but the amount of heat available is enormous.

We used to use a lot of windmills to pump water here. Back in the day of steam railroad locomotives every 50 miles or so across the deserts out west there would be a windmill with a shaft driven pump deep in a well pumping water into a holding tank which would drop water into a locomotive by gravity.

@Paul -- The idiots who assembled this heat pump were slobs. Back in 2013 I had to replace the freon reversing valve which had jammed. Look at this wonderful soldering job they did with the overheated copper turned purple and the excessive flux.


Look inside of the old reversing valve, that white stuff looks like crystallized flux to me.


I shook this white crystalline stuff out of the old reversing valve into an ashtray.


Do you still doubt that flux residue was the problem?

Electricity cost varies wildly from state to state and within each state. South of here in New York City it's $.25/Kwh, here in the Hudson Valley it's about $.12/Kwh, west of here nearer to the big generators at Niagra Falls it's as low as $.06/Kwh, all within New York State. 3000 miles west in the state of Washington it's as low as $.04/Kwh because of the big dams on the Columbia River. 1000 miles south in the Tennessee Valley it's as low as $.02/Kwh because of the federal dams on the Tennessee River. Most generation is done by private companies. The TVA is federal and heavily subsidized.

The older private generating companies generally have the least efficient plants and the highest costs. Consolidated Edison (started by Thomas Alva Edison) in NYC has some 100 year old plants still running.

Our local electric utility, Central Hudson, has four 1950 vintage natural gas turbines (430MW) (Google maps Danskammer) and a 1923 vintage 1210 MW steam turbine fueled by coal, oil or natural gas (Google maps Roseton).

We have the oldest industrial infrastructure in the world. The railroad line that runs past Danskammer and Roston on the east bank of the Hudson had its roadbed laid in the 1820s by a guy named Vanderbilt! The roadbed was built correctly and it still works fine at 120 mph! That's what happens when you don't have a whole bunch of little countries tearing up the countryside fighting stupid internecine wars every few decades because they don't like the way the neighbor talks or dresses, like they do in Europe.

So there! How do you like my imitation of Trump????????

Paul in NY


Edited by Paul_L on 14 January 2018 at 10:43pm
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